Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

[Tyrant's Bane]

hmmm, between collapsing the building and firing off a solar..... Can we somehow plant and/or detonate the load bearing pillars remotely with some kind of spell or bomb? I would love to throw down the building while charging a solar wrath so we have minimal delay between the two.

 

[Shaseyu]

Can we somehow plant and/or detonate the load bearing pillars remotely with some kind of spell or bomb? I would love to throw down the building while charging a solar wrath so we have minimal delay between the two.

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We don't have anything like that.
But spending a Cartridge or two should give us instant charging of Solar Wrath, so it's not a problem.

 

[Lunasmeow]

hmmm, between collapsing the building and firing off a solar..... Can we somehow plant and/or detonate the load bearing pillars remotely with some kind of spell or bomb? I would love to throw down the building while charging a solar wrath so we have minimal delay between the two.

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I like this idea. Useful no matter what strategy we use since we all seem to agree on range for the most part, just quibbling on the details of that.

 

[Lunasmeow]

We don't have anything like that.
But spending a Cartridge or two should give us instant charging of Solar Wrath, so it's not a problem.

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Bombs aren't hard to make. The reason most homemade bombs explode is because the government purposely lets partial instructions out so that crazies can blow themselves up at home. With Perfect Storm though, it can no doubt give us very good instructions and using simple chemicals from the nearest convenience store, we can have some bombs rigged up pretty quick.

 

[.seth]

fully agree with the government planting fake recipes for idiots, both that they do it and that they should. skeptical about taylor the teenage girl having the time to have thought much about homemade explosives, or the desire to resort to that after already gaining magical powers. people with magical powers, especially the ones given by shards in the wormverse, but not limited to them, tend to forget all other means of conflict resolution.

 

[Always Late]

Recommendation: Wait until the Dragonslayers are inside the warehouse, then target the weight-bearing pillars supporting the structure, and bring the building down onto their heads, from a concealed location at a recommended distance of 150-300 meters. Given that they'll be within their stolen suits, they should survive with minimal-to-moderate injuries. As the area is predominantly abandoned, there should be minimal complaints concerning the destruction of the structure.

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hmmm, between collapsing the building and firing off a solar..... Can we somehow plant and/or detonate the load bearing pillars remotely with some kind of spell or bomb? I would love to throw down the building while charging a solar wrath so we have minimal delay between the two.

Click to shrink...

I like this idea. Useful no matter what strategy we use since we all seem to agree on range for the most part, just quibbling on the details of that.

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... what is it with you lot and wanting to go out of your way to do something so incredibly inefficient?
Solar Wrath is going to be far more effective than dropping a building on the Dragonslayers.

Since there's some of you who didn't get the message last time I said this, here is a visual reminder of what a non-lethal, Cartridge-enhanced, Buster spell can do:

Now then.
Does anyone still think dropping a building on someone is remotely in the same league as that?

 

[Racoras]

Seriously, why do we need a targetted collapse of the building, or some thrown together homemade bombs (if we even have the time), and WHY WOULD WE EVER let them crawl out of the rubble?

Shooter-class spells are anti-infantry capable, as well as being used en masse.

Breaker (Ragnarok) spells are anti-city with their 10 KiloTon range (around the size of what was used on....the smaller of Hiroshima or Nagasaki).

SW even said that our Buster-spell wouldn't hardly get stopped by the sheet metal construction of a cheap industrial warehouse, which is confirmation of the pretty clear role that mid-tier spell should cover in anti-building.

Soooo....lets just drop a Solar Wrath or three on them? Its mainly a question of whether to fire them as fast as we can, fire one then temporal-sludge then more, fire sludge first then Solar's... or if just a single one is enuff, properly ambushed.

Edit: Huh, for some reason I thought that one was her Breaker-tier spell. Theres still the fact that its being enhanced by a Spaceship , but maybe thats just the range? Anyways, got a good clip for Breaker (or Ragnarok) since all I can find usually is video games?

 

[Lunasmeow]

... what is it with you lot and wanting to go out of your way to do something so incredibly inefficient?
Solar Wrath is going to be far more effective than dropping a building on the Dragonslayers.

Since there's some of you who didn't get the message last time I said this, here is a visual reminder of what a non-lethal, Cartridge-enhanced, Buster spell can do:

Now then.
Does anyone still think dropping a building on someone is remotely in the same league as that?

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I said I liked the idea, not that yours was bad. Specifically, I said "in addition to" any other strategy. Bombs + Buster is better than Buster. Specifically because even though the bombs probably won't hurt their power armor, it might just cause enough debris to screw up their sight for a while. Long enough for them not to dodge the incoming buster.

For future reference, someone liking an idea other than yours, isn't the same as saying your idea is shit. Let's not go overboard.

 

[Lunasmeow]

fully agree with the government planting fake recipes for idiots, both that they do it and that they should. skeptical about taylor the teenage girl having the time to have thought much about homemade explosives, or the desire to resort to that after already gaining magical powers. people with magical powers, especially the ones given by shards in the wormverse, but not limited to them, tend to forget all other means of conflict resolution.

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Yeah, that does seem a bit meta-gamey... no matter how much I like the idea. Fair point.

 

[Always Late]

I said I liked the idea, not that yours was bad. Specifically, I said "in addition to" any other strategy. Bombs + Buster is better than Buster. Specifically because even though the bombs probably won't hurt their power armor, it might just cause enough debris to screw up their sight for a while. Long enough for them not to dodge the incoming buster.

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No, it isn't. Four reasons:
1. We don't need to drop the building on them. If Solar Wrath hits, their power armor is fucked.
2. Oh yeah, they have power armor. Power armor made from Dragontech. A few feet of metal
3. KISS principle. As we're only dealing with three enemies, this will also be a quick fight. Highly detailed, complex plans will screw us over, either through not enough time to execute them, or one of its many failure points being reached.
4. power armor should be able to push off a few pounds of metal. What the Dragonslayers won't dodge is the attack they don't see coming. Thus, preserving the element of surprise and accuracy for the Solar Wrath is far more important.

I do not think I am being hyperbolic when I say the very first move we make will decide whether we win or lose.

 

[Lunasmeow]

No, it isn't. Four reasons:
1. We don't need to drop the building on them. If Solar Wrath hits, their power armor is fucked.
2. Oh yeah, they have power armor. Power armor made from Dragontech. A few feet of metal
3. KISS principle. As we're only dealing with three enemies, this will also be a quick fight. Highly detailed, complex plans will screw us over, either through not enough time to execute them, or one of its many failure points being reached.
4. power armor should be able to push off a few pounds of metal. What the Dragonslayers won't dodge is the attack they don't see coming. Thus, preserving the element of surprise and accuracy for the Solar Wrath is far more important.

I do not think I am being hyperbolic when I say the very first move we make will decide whether we win or lose.

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Okay:
1. Yes. If it hits. Let's not understate that if. We need some more info on the warehouse I think. Does it have windows or a skylight? Because they may see the beam coming and dodge it. Hence why a few bombs could cause clouds of dust that their power suits can't see through until it settles. When in such a situation, standard procedure would be to hunker down, let the power armor take the hits, until you can see well enough to react, so as not to accidentally hurt allies. Mercs tend to use military tactics, or they don't last as mercs for long.

2. A few feet of metal... what? It got cut off. But again, the bombs aren't for damaging them.

3. KISS principle? Sorry, haven't heard that acronym, and despite being military, I'm horrible with acronyms anyway. You'll need to explain that one.

4. I'm worried they'll see the buster coming. If you read my post you would have seen the point of the bombs was so that they couldn't see!

I agree that the first move matters most. Hence my points.

Edit: None of this really matters anyway though since I already said the bombs seemed a bit meta. And it certainly won't matter if there are no windows or skylights.

 

[Always Late]

Okay:
1. Yes. If it hits. Let's not understate that if. We need some more info on the warehouse I think. Does it have windows or a skylight? Because they may see the beam coming and dodge it. Hence why a few bombs could cause clouds of dust that their power suits can't see through until it settles. When in such a situation, standard procedure would be to hunker down, let the power armor take the hits, until you can see well enough to react, so as not to accidentally hurt allies.

2. A few feet of metal... what? It got cut off. But again, the bombs aren't for damaging them.

3. KISS principle? Sorry, haven't heard that acronym, and despite being military, I'm horrible with acronyms anyway. You'll need to explain that one.

4. I'm worried they'll see the buster coming. If you read my post you would have seen the point of the bombs was so that they couldn't see!

I agree that the first move matters most. Hence my points.

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1a. Do you think Taylor would be dumb enough to hover over a skylight?
1b/4. Again, Dragontech suits. That debris really shouldn't effect their visibility, because they're not reliant on the human eye.
1c. Not to mention, the first thing anyone with a modicum of sense does when learning they're being ambushed is get out of the ambush zone.
2. Sorry. A few feet of metal roofing. That's what collapsing the load-bearing parts of the structure will do. What? Did you assume that the walls would just fall on the Dragonslayers because you asked them to nicely? Or that we even had the equipment to do that?
3. Keep It Simple Stupid. The thing every enlisted man wants to say to That Fresh Officer who's been visited by the Idea Fairy, but can't.

 

[Lunasmeow]

1a. Do you think Taylor would be dumb enough to hover over a skylight?
1b/4. Again, Dragontech suits. That debris really shouldn't effect their visibility, because they're not reliant on the human eye.
1c. Not to mention, the first thing anyone with a modicum of sense does when learning they're being ambushed is get out of the ambush zone.
2. Sorry. A few feet of metal roofing. That's what collapsing the load-bearing parts of the structure will do. What? Did you assume that the walls would just fall on the Dragonslayers because you asked them to nicely? Or that we even had the equipment to do that?
3. Keep It Simple Stupid. The thing every enlisted man wants to say to That Fresh Officer who's been visited by the Idea Fairy, but can't.

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1a. She doesn't have to hover over a skylight. But reflections are a thing which is why I also asked about windows. A skylight in any area, (one she isn't hovering over) or even a window, can offer a reflection from the windows of other buildings. Never underestimate enemy perception.

1b. Cameras work just like human eyes. Debris affects them just the same. Because cameras are designed after the eye. Light only works one way. When light isn't being reflected because of things like dust clouds, even cameras are blind. They can only show what the light is reflecting off of. Thus, they show only the dust clouds. I'm a not just a military guy, but a military tech guy. I know tech.

1c. Yes, when they can see. Again, I'm in the military. And I'm not just a cook or something. I'm part of a special tactics unit. Even though I'm just their comm guy, I know military tactics, because we all go together. Most times you hunker down and make a suitable defensive retreat, or counter-strike. Not just run blind. That's how you get cut down by the enemy.

2. No need to be insulting. You could have been saying anything about the metal. And I don't care about the metal. It shouldn't hurt the power armor. I assumed you might be making some point about the power armor not being damaged by the explosions. Because nobody is stupid enough to think things fall without reasons.

3. A simple remote bomb trap is simple. Again. Military Tactics is what I do. KISS and TFO. Sounds like you were/are army. Bomb and then shoot = 2 stage plan. Very simple. This isn't some grand chessmaster strategy. KISS is ridiculous in this context.

 

[UberJJK]

I don't know. Considering their visible sizes, they weren't that far apart while talking. That Nanoha is still clearly visible to Vita when she stops to teleport makes me think it probably isn't more than 2 miles separating them.

That said, I'm judging based purely on eyeballing it and thinking about how far a mile was from my old house and what people looked like at that distance.

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It's worth noting that Nanoha and Vita are quite high up, the mountains in the background make that clear, which they can see very far. We can however estimate the minimum distance Nanoha must be away based on the fact that she is, as far as I can tell, completely blurred away into a black dot.

Human sized eyes working off natural sunlight can at best make out objects that take out 0.007 degrees of our field of vision. So given Nanoha's height of about 1.4m, best I can find from google, she should completely blur out at 11,459m. So we're looking at around 11.5km or 7.2 miles at the low end going off visual blur.

It's worth remembering that Bombardment Mages are compared to artillery and that even modern day mortars can hit out to 7km (4.4 miles) while actual artillery is more in the 18km (11.3 miles) to 300km (187.5 miles) range.

Watching the few anime clips I find, it never seems to be resisted (they just get caught by surprise) or broken out of (but I haven't seen it used on Brutes/Robots, just magical girls).

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While Silently Watches has said they aren't taking ViVid into account, it has weird power level stuff, they do show a Strike Arts (magical martial arts) user break a bind with physical strength:

I can't think of any examples of physically breaking out of a behind other then that though.

 

[landcollector]

We only have a few minutes. That's not enough time to make and plant bombs.

 

[Lunasmeow]

We only have a few minutes. That's not enough time to make and plant bombs.

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I already told the guy that the bombs seem too metagamey anyway, but he wants to keep going so I'm indulging him since I'm bored at the moment waiting for a download.

 

[Always Late]

1a. She doesn't have to hover over a skylight. But reflections are a thing which is why I also asked about windows. A skylight in any area, (one she isn't hovering over) or even a window, can offer a reflection from the windows of other buildings. Never underestimate enemy perception.

1b. Cameras work just like human eyes. Debris affects them just the same. Because cameras are designed after the eye. Light only works one way. When light isn't being reflected because of things like dust clouds, even cameras are blind. They can only show what the light is reflecting off of. Thus, they show only the dust clouds. I'm a not just a military guy, but a military tech guy. I know tech.

1c. Yes, when they can see. Again, I'm in the military. And I'm not just a cook or something. I'm part of a special tactics unit. Even though I'm just their comm guy, I know military tactics, because we all go together. Most times you hunker down and make a suitable defensive retreat, or counter-strike. Not just run blind. That's how you get cut down by the enemy.

2. No need to be insulting. You could have been saying anything about the metal. And I don't care about the metal. It shouldn't hurt the power armor. I assumed you might be making some point about the power armor not being damaged by the explosions. Because nobody is stupid enough to think things fall without reasons.

3. A simple remote bomb trap is simple. Again. Military Tactics is what I do. KISS and TFO. Sounds like you were/are army. Bomb and then shoot = 2 stage plan. Very simple. This isn't some grand chessmaster strategy. KISS is ridiculous in this context.

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1. You say I shouldn't underestimate the Dragonslayer's Tinkertech sensors, then spend the next two points telling me I should.
3. One stage plan is simpler than two-stage plan. And a two-stage plan you can actually accomplish is better than a two-stage plan you can't accomplish. Because there are no bombs, and no time to make bombs.

 

[Lunasmeow]

1. You say I shouldn't underestimate the Dragonslayer's Tinkertech sensors, then spend the next two points telling me I should.
3. One stage plan is simpler than two-stage plan. And a two-stage plan you can actually accomplish is better than a two-stage plan you can't accomplish. Because there are no bombs, and no time to make bombs.

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1. I said never underestimate enemy perception. That wasn't a reference to their sensors, but rather their ability to just happen to glance out the window and see the reflection of the incoming beam attack. You know, the very point I had just raised? Your chosen interpretation isn't the only interpretation. I'm not going to just immediately counter my own statements. And I'm not underestimating their sensors, I'm knowledgeable on how light works. This matters because despite how you seem to believe tinkertech to be magitech, it isn't. Tinkertech is highly advanced technology. It works on normal scientific principles. Which is why normal scientists can test and evaluate the safety of the tech, even if it is too advanced for them to replicate. This is stated in canon. This is why the Protectorate has scientists on call to evaluate tinkertech.

3. Yes one stage is simpler than two. We can all count. That still doesn't make KISS suddenly appropriate.

 

[Always Late]

3. Yes one stage is simpler than two. We can all count. That still doesn't make KISS suddenly appropriate.

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It is given the scheme that started this. A scheme which you voiced support for.

 

[Lunasmeow]

It is given the scheme that started this. A scheme which you voiced support for.

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*Sigh* You can't judge my "plan" based on what it was inspired by. It has to be judged on its own merits. Not those of another plan. You seem to be antagonistic to any plan that isn't yours oddly enough. And when actual weaknesses to your plan are pointed out... you ignore them.

 

[Silently Watches]

@Silently Watches Are there any rather tall building/skyscrapers (preferably abandoned) about a 1/2 mile to a mile away that we can watch from?

Since were not going to the EB fight can we have a WaS running to alert us when they get near?

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There might be…

Wasn't she viewing across desert with a magic scope for that?

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Not during the shot I looked at. The "camera" was a couple of feet behind Nanoha, and Vita was still minimally discernable, not a speck. Like I said, I'm just eyeballing it, but I'd put it in the 1-2 mile range, definitely not more than 2.

EDIT:

It's worth noting that Nanoha and Vita are quite high up, the mountains in the background make that clear, which they can see very far. We can however estimate the minimum distance Nanoha must be away based on the fact that she is, as far as I can tell, completely blurred away into a black dot.

Human sized eyes working off natural sunlight can at best make out objects that take out 0.007 degrees of our field of vision. So given Nanoha's height of about 1.4m, best I can find from google, she should completely blur out at 11,459m. So we're looking at around 11.5km or 7.2 miles at the low end going off visual blur.

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You could well be right, but like I said, Vita in that shot looked closer than just a blur. Unless the animators weren't consistent with their distance, which would be just our luck, wouldn't it?

1) Start very close and ambush in the warehouse. Solar Wrath to open followed by a Blitz rush & flame blade combo or a shooter swarm with us and sam. Harder to ambush and risks close combat, but if we pull it off we go hard and fast.

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Except this ISN'T Hammer of God. The three plans were fairly obviously matched to the three suggestions in-chapter: Honor Duel is Sam's idea to stay inside and engage in melee, Sneaky Ninja is Taylor's idea to shoot from cover inside the warehouse, and Hammer of God is PS's idea to bombard them from outside the warehouse.

...Nobody?

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Fine, not nearly enough people, how about that?

The only other thing I asked was if we could modify the RF so that it was smaller than 4 miles, so that the strategy would still be viable. I don't think I got an answer on that particular modification either though.

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Sorry to sound snippy. That said, you can't shoot into a dimensional barrier; not without breaking it, at least. That's from the show itself.

EDIT: And the last thing I'm going to say about range, I promise, is that while 3 miles is the longest recorded sniper shot, the list I saw had the next four or five entries all around the 1.5 mark. I personally don't think a similar range limit to the spell itself is all that unbelievable.

hmmm, between collapsing the building and firing off a solar..... Can we somehow plant and/or detonate the load bearing pillars remotely with some kind of spell or bomb? I would love to throw down the building while charging a solar wrath so we have minimal delay between the two.

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You don't have a spell for that.

Edit: Huh, for some reason I thought that one was her Breaker-tier spell. Theres still the fact that its being enhanced by a Spaceship , but maybe thats just the range? Anyways, got a good clip for Breaker (or Ragnarok) since all I can find usually is video games?

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From the 1st movie:

 

[Always Late]

*Sigh* You can't judge my "plan" based on what it was inspired by. It has to be judged on its own merits. Not those of another plan. You seem to be antagonistic to any plan that isn't yours oddly enough. And when actual weaknesses to your plan are pointed out... you ignore them.

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I have acknowledged weaknesses and potential failure points. For example:

4. power armor should be able to push off a few pounds of metal. What the Dragonslayers won't dodge is the attack they don't see coming. Thus, preserving the element of surprise and accuracy for the Solar Wrath is far more important.

I do not think I am being hyperbolic when I say the very first move we make will decide whether we win or lose.

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I thought this was specific enough, but I guess not. If Taylor misses, Solar Wrath is blocked by unknown means, or fails to even heavily damage the enemy, she's at a massive disadvantage.
An example of something I have extreme skepticism over would be the Tinkertech sensors, bolstered by the magic theory texts, the Dragonslayers use being limited by the light spectrum. Tinkers make stuff that can be beyond conventional physics. Ergo, relying solely on your knowledge of the light spectrum might end up biting you, and thus us, in the ass.

 

[Lunasmeow]

There might be…
Sorry to sound snippy. That said, you can't shoot into a dimensional barrier; not without breaking it, at least. That's from the show itself.

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You're fine. You're answering the questions, and with how people get when debating things online this is pretty tame really. I just like that you at least answer the questions. The more info we have the more we can amend plans to fit better.

I did forget that tidbit about firing though, since I haven't seen the show in a while. What about using the blade form? Much as I hate the idea of close up in this particular fight, the info could be useful later. Can we use the blade, in an area where an RF field is, that we are not in, or is all magic blocked and not just beams?

 

[Silently Watches]

I have acknowledged weaknesses and potential failure points. For example:

I thought this was specific enough, but I guess not. If Taylor misses, Solar Wrath is blocked by unknown means, or fails to even heavily damage the enemy, she's at a massive disadvantage.
An example of something I have extreme skepticism over would be the Tinkertech sensors, bolstered by the magic theory texts, the Dragonslayers use being limited by the light spectrum. Tinkers make stuff that can be beyond conventional physics. Ergo, relying solely on your knowledge of the light spectrum might end up biting you, and thus us, in the ass.

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Always Late, you've made your stance clear. You can drop it now.

 

[Lunasmeow]

I have acknowledged weaknesses and potential failure points. For example:

I thought this was specific enough, but I guess not. If Taylor misses, Solar Wrath is blocked by unknown means, or fails to even heavily damage the enemy, she's at a massive disadvantage.
An example of something I have extreme skepticism over would be the Tinkertech sensors, bolstered by the magic theory texts, the Dragonslayers use being limited by the light spectrum. Tinkers make stuff that can be beyond conventional physics. Ergo, relying solely on your knowledge of the light spectrum might end up biting you, and thus us, in the ass.

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There are things other than light they can use. Thermal for example, but bombs would help block that due to the heat given off from the explosions in such a small area messing up thermal vision until the heat dissipated enough for other sources to become visible. Beyond conventional physics is worrying though. I honestly hadn't considered that problem, however if that problem exists, then even shooting from afar isn't safe, as if they aren't relying on sight (and therefore light) then we'll be sensed anyway. Unless the DM randomly decides to extend our range out farther. But I doubt that is happening.

Edit: Just refreshed and saw Silently Watches request for the line of convo to be dropped. Sorry.