Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

zero_traveler · Aug 16, 2016

Silently Watches said:
You're absolutely right that it makes no sense. They're also absolutely right that spells that blow up buildings (or cities in Starlight Breaker's case) only knock their target out at most.

As for the how, my best guess is that there is a subroutine in the spell that applies what is essentially a low-level Barrier Jacket to living targets so that only so much force actually affects them. It also explains why Nanoha can do things like blast Quattro from across the Saint's Cradle and avoid accidental crushing her beneath the tons of rubble left over from the walls.

Ragnarök doesn't have this setting, by the way. It's all lethal all the time. Just wanted to remind everyone of that fact.

Spells that are "set to Stun" in Nanoha are cast in such a way that they do what is termed "Pure Mana Damage" It's been in several of the translated factoid pics that have been floating around.

Essentially, the energy of the spell ignores the physical existence of the targets and strikes their Magic directly. The shock of having magic of a certain magnitude hit their magic directly overwhelms the host, causing them to lose consciousness.

Edit(Supposition: I can't point to anything concrete from this point): From what I can find of it, this is also referred to as being somewhat of a skill issue. With magic in general or familiarity with a given spell. Nanoha is a ridiculous prodigy when it comes to magic, but Hayate leans heavily on the book for her spell processing.

Also Starlight Breaker is a Nanoha Original(Makes sense she would know how to tweak it), whereas Hayate's is a spell ingrained in the Tome of the Night Sky/Book of Darkness

Skjadir · Aug 16, 2016

zero_traveler said:
Spells that are "set to Stun" in Nanoha are cast in such a way that they do what is termed "Pure Mana Damage" It's been in several of the translated factoid pics that have been floating around.

Essentially, the energy of the spell ignores the physical existence of the targets and strikes their Magic directly. The shock of having magic of a certain magnitude hit their magic directly overwhelms the host, causing them to lose consciousness.

Edit: From what I can find of it, this is also referred to as being somewhat of a skill issue. With magic in general or familiarity with a given spell. Nanoha is a ridiculous prodigy when it comes to magic, but Hayate leans heavily on the book for her spell processing.

Also Starlight Breaker is a Nanoha Original(Makes sense she would know how to tweak it), whereas Hayate's is a spell ingrained in the Tome of the Night Sky/Book of Darkness

Wouldn´t that mean that if you hit normal people with it they ether don´t get any damage or do they get kill ?

Wasn´t it so that when enough mana is in the air that it becomes dangerous to normal people (keeping in mind that i don´t know the anime that can be fannon that i read some where)?

zero_traveler · Aug 16, 2016

Skjadir said:
Wouldn´t that mean that if you hit normal people with it they ether don´t get any damage or do they get kill ?

Wasn´t it so that when enough mana is in the air that it becomes dangerous to normal people (keeping in mind that i don´t know the anime that can be fannon that i read some where)?

All spells "Can be dangerous to people" It's through the will of the caster that the spells are made non-lethal.

A Divine Buster can be just as lethal as a Starlight Breaker, The only real difference is what's powering the spell. Divine Buster is a Spell that Nanoha casts from her own mana reserves. Starlight Breaker has a small startup cost (To kickstart the 'Mana gathering" effect), but then gathers most of it's power from the ambient mana left in the air after heavy spellcasting.

EDIT: As Far as Divine Buster goes, didn't it start as the Sealing spell Nanoha used in the very first episode? But she needed a way to use the Sealing spell at extreme range.

Red Bovine · Aug 16, 2016

Silently Watches said:
…Even without counting the votes, I'm starting to think I may have accidentally weighted one of the choices.

It's kind of hard to believe you didn't do that on purpose. You killed off Vista's parents and made it so that none of her friends went with her when she was transferred after participating in an endbringer fight, add in that she appears to be a fan favorite and also a little girl and it seems pretty obvious to anyone that the choice that included her was the most likely to win. No offense but when the QM weights one choice above the others(intentional or not) like that it really sucks the fun out of playing a quest since if other people want the option that isn't weighted it feels like there isn't even a point to voting since their choice doesn't have much of a chance of winning.

Skjadir · Aug 16, 2016

zero_traveler said:
All spells "Can be dangerous to people" It's through the will of the caster that the spells are made non-lethal.

A Divine Buster can be just as lethal as a Starlight Breaker, The only real difference is what's powering the spell. Divine Buster is a Spell that Nanoha casts from her own mana reserves. Starlight Breaker has a small startup cost (To kickstart the 'Mana gathering" effect), but then gathers most of it's power from the ambient mana left in the air after heavy spellcasting.

...
I asked what happened if you hit a normal person (with no mana) with a stun spell (as these hit the mana of the target and they have none). The second question is more about what happens if you have a massiv amount of amient mana as i readed somewhere that it becomes dangerous to normal people if you hit a certain level and that mages don´t have such a problem / the limit is so high that it doesn´t really matters.

zero_traveler · Aug 16, 2016

Skjadir said:
...
I asked what happened if you hit a normal person (with no mana) with a stun spell (as these hit the mana of the target and they have none). The second question is more about what happens if you have a massiv amount of amient mana as i readed somewhere that it becomes dangerous to normal people if you hit a certain level and that mages don´t have such a problem / the limit is so high that it doesn´t really matters.

Sorry, guess I misunderstood the question.

I don't think it's ever come up in-series actually. Everyone on screen that it would be relevant to has magic. If there were Non-magicals in the series anywhere, They were in the background.

There's only one real exception to this, and that's Arisa and Suzuka being in the line of fire when Corrupted Reinforce casts Starlight Breaker. But Nanoha and Fate pulled through with their defenses (barely) and the two of them weren't affected, so it's moot.

As for your second question: Both of those options could be the case. Again, it never comes up in series, as far as I know.

Silently Watches · Aug 16, 2016

jboone said:
I wish there was a good video showing Ragnarök off. I think Hayate has used it once in the entire series. She seems to prefer Diabolic Emission. May I ask why Rag doesn't have a non-lethal setting when Starlight Breaker does?

To be honest, I don't know that she does prefer Diabolical Emission. She used each one once in A's, and I want to say she used something else entirely in StrikerS.

EDIT: The spell she used during her big attack in StrikerS was something else. Hraesvelgr, specifically.

zero_traveler said:
Spells that are "set to Stun" in Nanoha are cast in such a way that they do what is termed "Pure Mana Damage" It's been in several of the translated factoid pics that have been floating around.

Essentially, the energy of the spell ignores the physical existence of the targets and strikes their Magic directly. The shock of having magic of a certain magnitude hit their magic directly overwhelms the host, causing them to lose consciousness.

Edit(Supposition: I can't point to anything concrete from this point): From what I can find of it, this is also referred to as being somewhat of a skill issue. With magic in general or familiarity with a given spell. Nanoha is a ridiculous prodigy when it comes to magic, but Hayate leans heavily on the book for her spell processing.

Also Starlight Breaker is a Nanoha Original(Makes sense she would know how to tweak it), whereas Hayate's is a spell ingrained in the Tome of the Night Sky/Book of Darkness

Regarding the "pure mana damage" thing, how do these spells destroy walls and buildings if they don't actually do any physical damage? Not arguing with you, but I just don't see how those two qualities could both be in play when they seem mutually exclusive.

Red Bovine said:
It's kind of hard to believe you didn't do that on purpose. You killed off Vista's parents and made it so that none of her friends went with her when she was transferred after participating in an endbringer fight, add in that she appears to be a fan favorite and also a little girl and it seems pretty obvious to anyone that the choice that included her was the most likely to win. No offense but when the QM weights one choice above the others(intentional or not) like that it really sucks the fun out of playing a quest since if other people want the option that isn't weighted it feels like there isn't even a point to voting since their choice doesn't have much of a chance of winning.

When I said I might have weighted the vote, I was talking about putting a character a lot of people like with a quest genre that most people here seem to want. That so many people want to follow a certain character isn't me weighting anything BECAUSE it wouldn't matter where I was sending her, that's still how the vote might have gone. If you're mad about everyone wanting to follow Vista, that's just you being on the opposite end of a landslide vote, not anything of my doing.

As for killing off Vista's parents? Well, one, I don't know if it would have mattered whose parents I killed because so many people want to follow her. Two, they were the ones killed because while I think all of the Wards' parents are nuts for not hauling their kids out of the program immediately after an Endbringer fight, that is especially true for the one preteen Ward. If I want to keep her in play (which I do), I needed some way to keep them from interfering, and giving custody to a Protectorate hero was the simplest way. Originally I thought about having them stuck in BB and not getting out in time, but then I decided that the PRT would probably make the evacuation of heroes' families a priority. Killing them was the next thought.

zero_traveler · Aug 16, 2016

Silently Watches said:
Regarding the "pure mana damage" thing, how do these spells destroy walls and buildings if they don't actually do any physical damage? Not arguing with you, but I just don't see how those two qualities could both be in play when they seem mutually exclusive.

Ultimately, I don't know. I thought it was just a "toggle switch" mental trick "On for Lethal, Off for Non-lethal"

As I said before, I was just parroting what I remember from those Lore pics that I think @Atreidestrooper has been translating?

Silently Watches · Aug 16, 2016

jboone said:
I wish there was a good video showing Ragnarök off. I think Hayate has used it once in the entire series. She seems to prefer Diabolic Emission. May I ask why Rag doesn't have a non-lethal setting when Starlight Breaker does?

Forgot to explain why Ragnarök is always lethal. Reason one is game balance, the same reason it has certain requirements you have to follow if you don't want to kill yourself casting it. This is not something you can whip out for every little fight, or even every big fight. It is meant to be a tool you have available but that you think very hard about before using. Reason two is that it was developed during a vicious war where both sides were at the point of seriously contemplating genocide and designed for the primary purpose of destroying enemy strongholds, particularly at night when most of the soldiers are asleep, and killing everyone inside. That or eliminating important production and manufacturing areas/capital cities/culturally significant towns/anywhere else that would demoralize the enemy. Its explicit purpose is to kill everything, and so giving it a nonlethal setting would be counterproductive.

Always Late · Aug 16, 2016

Silently Watches said:
while I think all of the Wards' parents are nuts for not hauling their kids out of the program immediately after an Endbringer fight, that is especially true for the one preteen Ward.

... don't the Wards program let a Ward fight in EB battles with parental consent or is that fanon?
And what sense does it make to haul a Ward out of the program for just being in a city an Endbringer decided to hit?
Insurance companies have 'act of god' clauses for a reason.

Silently Watches said:
Reason one is game balance, the same reason it has certain requirements you have to follow if you don't want to kill yourself casting it. This is not something you can whip out for every little fight, or even every big fight. It is meant to be a tool you have available but that you think very hard about before using.

... and you're giving it to SB/SV?

Silently Watches said:
Reason two is that it was developed during a vicious war where both sides were at the point of seriously contemplating genocide and designed for the primary purpose of destroying enemy strongholds, particularly at night when most of the soldiers are asleep, and killing everyone inside. That or eliminating important production and manufacturing areas/capital cities/culturally significant towns/anywhere else that would demoralize the enemy. Its explicit purpose is to kill everything, and so giving it a nonlethal setting would be counterproductive.

So a cross between carpet bombing and Nuclear Bombardment.
My inner Curtis LeMay approves.

Silently Watches · Aug 16, 2016

Always Late said:
... don't the Wards program let a Ward fight in EB battles with parental consent or is that fanon?
And what sense does it make to haul a Ward out of the program for just being in a city an Endbringer decided to hit?
Insurance companies have 'act of god' clauses for a reason.

I don't know if the parental consent is canon or fanon, but it would make sense. The danger is parents changing their minds later on. Fighting major villains is one thing, and there are explanations/excuses that can make it seem safer or somewhat reasonable. "Oh, there's always a Protectorate hero on patrol with them. The news just doesn't mention that because it makes a better story." "The villains don't want to be known as kid-killers or draw the kind of response murdering a Ward would cause, so these fights look a lot more dangerous than they really are." Etc, etc. But Endbringers? They don't care about playing nice. They won't be stopped by a nearby adult hero. They slaughter capes indiscriminately, and I think having your twelve-year-old daughter joining that fight even if it is just because it hit your hometown would be a terrifying wake-up call that should make any parent say, "Nope, not giving my approval for this. It doesn't matter if Missy feels obligated to help. She can make these decisions for herself when she turns eighteen, but until then, I'm the one who decides what's best for her. Maybe this way, she'll actually live to see her eighteenth birthday."

As for why they would decide to pull her out of the Wards entirely? The very fact that there is a choice to let your kid join these fights paints the PRT as an organization that doesn't mind throwing kids into the meat grinder. Is that really the kind of system you want watching out for your child?

Or maybe it's just me and if I ever have kids, they'll have to put up with a helicopter parent.

Dark Mage · Aug 16, 2016

Silently Watches said:
Reason one is game balance, the same reason it has certain requirements you have to follow if you don't want to kill yourself casting it. This is not something you can whip out for every little fight, or even every big fight. It is meant to be a tool you have available but that you think very hard about before using.

Always Late said:
... and you're giving it to SB/SV?

I just know someone is going to suggest a "small" SW to wound a target at some point.

I mean, what's the worst that can happen?

Always Late · Aug 16, 2016

Silently Watches said:
As for why they would decide to pull her out of the Wards entirely? The very fact that there is a choice to let your kid join these fights paints the PRT as an organization that doesn't mind throwing kids into the meat grinder. Is that really the kind of system you want watching out for your child?

'join' as in 'we can't get you out of the city or 100% guarantee your protection because Endbringer, do you want to sit this out in a bunker, help SAR, or go fight?'

Silently Watches said:
Or maybe it's just me and if I ever have kids, they'll have to put up with a helicopter parent.

... i think you're letting your own personal morals/thought process become what characters use as their morals/thought processes just a little here. But that's, usually, ok. You're the author, you're allowed to do that somewhat.

Firedon · Aug 16, 2016

Always Late said:
And what sense does it make to haul a Ward out of the program for just being in a city an Endbringer decided to hit?

Propably because an Endbringer just hit the city and the destruction and misery that follows enables easier gang recruitment, I imagine.

Always Late said:
'join' as in 'we can't get you out of the city or 100% guarantee your protection because Endbringer, do you want to sit this out in a bunker, help SAR, or go fight?'

Well, yes. Those are the choices for the Ward. But it doesn't change the fact that it portrays the PRT as okay with throwing twelve-year-olds at Endbringers. While a pretty negative view, I can see someone arriving at that conclusion afterwards. It could make you wonder what else they're okay with. (This is just me speculating, but Vista's homelife wasn't very good was it, right? I can imagine her not telling her parents that much about what she gets up to with the wards. [Not even going into that thing with her scar.])
So I think SW meant that as the parents receiving a wake-up call that yes, cape life can be really dangerous and that being in the Wards doesn't necessarily protect you from that, so they went to pull Vista out and leave town to not get quarantined at the same time.

veekie · Aug 16, 2016

Silently Watches said:
You're absolutely right that it makes no sense. They're also absolutely right that spells that blow up buildings (or cities in Starlight Breaker's case) only knock their target out at most.

As for the how, my best guess is that there is a subroutine in the spell that applies what is essentially a low-level Barrier Jacket to living targets so that only so much force actually affects them. It also explains why Nanoha can do things like blast Quattro from across the Saint's Cradle and avoid accidental crushing her beneath the tons of rubble left over from the walls.

Ragnarök doesn't have this setting, by the way. It's all lethal all the time. Just wanted to remind everyone of that fact.

Actually, from what I recall, it uses the a similar answer to Slayers answering why demons have magic resistance.
A person has a physical component and a spiritual component, body and mind. Spells hit both by default, inflicting mental and physical damage, allowing anything with a mind to resist more damage than they should be able to.

Nonlethal damage then, controls the output so that when it hits something with both body and mind, the majority of the damage hits them in the soul, which is nearly indestructible, resulting in a knockout, though depending on how much bang, they may be still put into a coma.

However, this grows unreliable as the energy level involved. Nanoha is remarkable for being able to control even massive spells like Starlight Breaker so that they don't kill(see below). Fate works around it by using individually aimed multi-hit spells, she can call them off before they wind up doing too much damage.

Hayate does not have this option. They have to issue evacuation warnings when she fires ship scale ice blasts, summons an island scale iceberg, or meteoric bombardments. If you get hit, you WILL die even if she tries. Too much dakka. Sort of like the Arc-en-ciel.

zero_traveler said:
EDIT: As Far as Divine Buster goes, didn't it start as the Sealing spell Nanoha used in the very first episode? But she needed a way to use the Sealing spell at extreme range.

Yep. Might be why it's good at nonlethal. Divine Buster was originally meant to seal the target's magic energy back into the package.

Starlight Breaker is just Divine Buster hooked up to an energy accumulator and then pumped so hard it broke.

Always Late said:
... don't the Wards program let a Ward fight in EB battles with parental consent or is that fanon?

There's no 'let' about it. A parent could explicitly authorize it, but there is a major difference when the EB attacks your home city.

Not really going to be an option to sit it out.

Always Late · Aug 16, 2016

Firedon said:
(This is just me speculating, but Vista's homelife wasn't very good was it, right? I can imagine her not telling her parents that much about what she gets up to with the wards. [Not even going into that thing with her scar.])

IIRC, she really didn't want much to do with them. They weren't abusive or neglectful, but she wanted to be Vista, they wanted little Missy.

veekie said:
There's no 'let' about it. A parent could explicitly authorize it, but there is a major difference when the EB attacks your home city.

Not really going to be an option to sit it out.

Which makes withdrawing a kid from the program because of it all the more head-scratching.

Firedon said:
So I think SW meant that as the parents receiving a wake-up call that yes, cape life can be really dangerous and that being in the Wards doesn't necessarily protect you from that, so they went to pull Vista out and deprive her of what few safeties exist in cape life.

FTFY.

Firedon · Aug 16, 2016

Firedon said:
the parents receiving a wake-up call that yes, cape life can be really dangerous and that being in the Wards doesn't necessarily protect you from that, so they went to pull Vista out and leave town to not get quarantined at the same time.

Always Late said:
They weren't abusive or neglectful, but she wanted to be Vista, they wanted little Missy.

I can see these two synergizing really well.
Situation's getting more dangerous in Vista's cape life. They want Missy. Obvious solution is to pull her out, so she's no longer Vista the cape, but only Missy again, even if she can use her powers.
Not really all that logical, but considering the likely disconnect they have to how life as a cape works, the general panic/paranoia because their city just got hit by the Simurgh plus the trend to just get out of there?

Always Late said:
FTFY.

Consider that they also left town and thought they'd basically start over somewhere completely new. Coupled with them wanting her to be normal Missy, what dangers would they expect from the cape side?

Always Late · Aug 16, 2016

Firedon said:
Consider that they also left town and thought they'd basically start over somewhere completely new. Coupled with them wanting her to be normal Missy, what dangers would they expect from the cape side?

They obviously didn't expect much. Don't misunderstand me here: I get how naive and protective parents can be sometimes. Dealing with that was my unpaid job for over five years. I do get why they'd pull Missy. But it shows that they don't understand what's best for their daughter. That whole thing about how long independent capes survive? That's no joke. With the Protectorate/Wards, she had a team to back her up, a steady paycheck, equipment complimenting/shoring up her capabilities that just aren't available to most citizens, and people used to taking someone with totally unique powers and helping the person figure out the best way to use and live with them.

Simply put, Miss Militia understands Missy's needs better than her own parents did.

Silently Watches · Aug 17, 2016

Do I even need to tally this one up?

[x] Philadelphia.
No. of Votes: 50

[X] Chicago.
No. of Votes: 8

Shadowdrakon
imhotep99301
Major Session
Chocolote12
cl20
Citino
Kindfragen
Trooper1023

[x] Boston.
No. of Votes: 5

globalwarmth
Yog
Katsuragi
Sweece
veekie

Total No. of Voters: 63

The Magical Adventures of Armory Lady and her orphaned sidekick Hopscotch it is, then.

See you soon at the same witch time, same witch channel.

Always Late · Aug 17, 2016

Silently Watches said:
The Magical Adventures of Armory Lady and her orphaned sidekick Hopscotch it is, then.

You are evil.
I just want you to know that.

Silently Watches · Aug 17, 2016

Always Late said:
You are evil.
I just want you to know that.

I totally didn't kill Vista's parents just so I could make a Batman joke.

Always Late · Aug 17, 2016

Silently Watches said:
I totally didn't kill Vista's parents just so I could make a Batman joke.

... eh, I've seen deaths done for stupider reasons in comic books, no reason for me to get bent out of shape now.

Trooper1023 · Aug 19, 2016

Always Late said:
get bent out of shape now

Vista?!

...i c wut u did thar!

Always Late · Aug 19, 2016

Trooper1023 said:
Vista?!

...i c wut u did thar!

You, and I'm presuming zero_traveler and Twei.
Kind of disappointing it fell flat or got missed by so many, but comedy's not all pun and games.

Trooper1023 · Aug 19, 2016

Always Late said:
comedy's not all pun and games

*slaps a hand down on the table* Goddamnit, Late!

Magical Girl Escalation Taylor (Worm/Nanoha)

Revolver Ocelot

Revolver Ocelot

Revolver Ocelot

Professional Stalker

Revolver Ocelot

Professional Stalker

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

Professional Stalker

Sanity is really overrated...

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

Lazy Sleepy Cat

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

Lazy Sleepy Cat

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

Professional Stalker

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

Professional Stalker

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

Look, sir! Droids!

Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains

Look, sir! Droids!