It's a Girl's World -- And Lilly wants Adventure

[noncannon]

I wonder how the Foundational Ethos will interact with [Dream]. The comment for {Collective Communion} talks about the possibility of building a world in that dreamspace. All the Foundational Ethos rolled are 'GEOLOGICAL INTEGRATION ONLY', are there Foundational Ethos that are oneirological (dungeon in a dream), or perhaps somatological (dungeon in a body, probably a giant body) or can be integrated multiple ways (think 'Beautiful Darkness' except more dungeony, a la a dream of a dead titan)?

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Good observation!

So this Dreamspace the Prime Tree and I share. It's more than just a location, I feel like I could build an entire world here [or, perhaps, an entire dungeon?] given time to experiment and grow.

It isn't just imagined either, this has real repercussions on the actual waking world too. I'm still not entirely sure what those can all be, but there are a lot them.

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The [Dream] draws closer [how ominous], everything within it easier to reach and pull up into the real.

Pinning down the exact material benefits of this is difficult, but I do know it gives me a far more solid foundation to attempt things within the Dreamspace and have that reflected in actual reality. I'll need time to parse most of that out and what it means though.

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We don't exactly want it to have repercussions on the waking world (or, to be more accurate, we want to have control of the exact repercussions).

Dream Dungeon would allow Lilly to carry around the dungeon anywhere she goes. In the better case scenario, she can use the dungeon to spawn 50 ton blocks and then materialize them on top of enemies.

But yeah... the impression I was getting was more that Lilly herself was turned into geology, so this is probably off-basalt.

 

[Faraway-R]

1) Don't pick something that requires another Source we don't have to really shine for the Sixth Ethos, because the Seventh will be our last option for a while unless the universe catches fire by then. (So if Stennvoker shows up again, we'll have to pass--we need a good Mana or Oath Ethos first to really let it pop without a lot of study).

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Respectfully, Alectai. I am going to disagree. We know a few things about Mana Ethae in general and Quickwrit Stennovoker in particular:

Whole bunch of places really, especially elsewhere on the continent. There are also still plenty of spots in Harmuph, but how exactly to get a foot in the door without kicking off the hinges and setting the front garden on fire is an issue.

The best way to encourage Lilly to really look for those opportunities would be the take a Mana Ethos when it comes up, a lot of them benefit greatly from booksmarts.

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It has been stated that lots of Mana Ethae in general benefit greatly from booksmarts.

Meaning that whether we pick Quickwrit Stennovoker as first or second Mana Ethos, we are still liable to need to have a lot of study first to make our first Mana Ethos work really well, no matter what it will be.

Correct.
Sorceror and Stennovoker are both Mana based, so there would be similarities in how you'd develop them. Sorceror you can lean on what [Dream Within the Forest] has/can teach you. Stennovoker on your solid foundation in runic theory.

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It also has been stated that two Mana Ethae we were offered so far, would have similarities in how we'd develop them.

And that we already have quite a bit of grounding for Stennovoker, too, meaning at least some of study time was already done in backstory.

That's within the wheelhouse of Runic Magic yes. But definitely not the same day you pick up a Mana Ethos.
You need to already be capable of inscribing a rune to generate its effect instantly. A couple seconds in {Sample Space} is not long enough to figure out new runic designs (unless they are mishmashes of things you already know). That would be like reading the first two sentances of a novel a million times and then knowing what the whole story is about; impossible. Its one of few cases where infinite repetition doesn't really help.

Edit: Where it would be insanely useful is for testing new designs. No need for safety features. Use a 1/10 of a second {Sample Space} when you activate the new template for the first time, slap yourself in the face as a sign if its dangerous to activate.
In fact, you could do ridiculous stuff such as design new OP runes and glyphs that are literally impossible for someone not using {Sample Space} to pull off.

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And this (Informational threadmark actually) tells us that we already have an applicable force multiplier for Quickwrit Stennovoker.

And actually, we have already seen twice that by sheer "accident" Lilly was able to disrupt two different esoteric techniques (stealth on one enemy, and that wound transfer effect on the bear) - imagine how much better she will be if she has more than just blunt instruments to use?

Summarizing - I think that you are overlooking that all the problems inherent in developing Quickwrit Stennovoker will also likely apply to another Mana Ethos. And there is already quite a bit there to "let it pop".



On a different topic.

The thing about [Overlooked Maiden] is that it's almost certain that any society that has existed a non-trivial amount of time in this setting probably has counterplay for this kind of perception-fuckery, and the very presence of it would be a deep red flag.

And I don't think it'll be strong enough out the gate to hide our contribution here. So I feel as nice as it is, it's more trouble than it's worth.

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I agree. More to the point if I read the effects right it's not that it hides any of Lilly's achievements, it's that it makes the one examining them to only examine each and every one of them in a vacuum, separately from all others. As if each achievement was made by a different otherwise unremarkable person... And some of Lilly's achievements are such that even this manner of obfuscation will not allow her to avoid scrutiny. "She can recover Pithe in others" is already a red flag.

Overlooked Maiden seems like an Ethos of someone who would be a spy working as a servant, having minor slip ups covered by an otherwise unassuming facade, their Ethos making sure those minor slip ups do not amass into something greater. Break the mold brazenly enough, though, and you will still be targeted.

On a side note, is it me or Flow has some heavy focus on attention and perception? On mental effects?

 

[Silverking]

Here's my little contribution to the fan-Ethos pile.

[Shackle the Otherworldly] [Oath] [Mythic]

Many wonder how the Noosemen are able to bind the Ethos of those they pursue. The answer lies in knowing a simple truth: Ethae are not a kindness of the cosmos, but tools left by angels, devils, and other entities to cleave to and enhance the mortals they bond to. One may view these as a gift, but in truth the Others seek only to enhance their harvest of choice, whether it be bravery, cunning, satisfaction…or despair and misery. It is the work of weak men to exploit these talents and grow them to such heights that none dare oppose them…and it is the work of stronger men to seek to find, restrain, and execute those who would bring despair to the many. Beware those who seek to walk this path: glory does not await you. You will never reach the heights of mastery or the depths of raw power of your fellow men, and to the uninitiated you will seem a master of no talent. But you shall bring your arrogant and cruel quarry down into the dirt with you, and without their crutches they shall become blind and helpless as babes. For the safety of the world, you will seal and shackle all who misuse their Workings, and one day, you may yet use turn your talents on the Weavers themselves.

 

[GlassMask]

On another note I'm extremely impressed with how insidious [Service to Man] in perpetuating misogyny.

For pretty much any parent, you want your child to do as well as possible (ideally). Now its obvious that what you do and act beforehand influence your ethos selection. However, being properly maidenly and ladylike is in conflict with a lot of promising ethos that many girls would love to have. Its not maidenly to be bookish or play with the sword etc etc.

Unfortunately what this means is that for a lot parents its completely rational to push girls away from activities which could get them more powerful ethos like [Dream within the Forest]. This is because a nigh certain decent future as a housewife is Secure with an ethos like [Service to Man], which due to its supportive aspects makes her valuable as a wife to pretty much any husband. If a girl fails to get a decent ethos and potentially loses a shot at [Service to Man] than she kinda loses out massively for the future.

And of course people arent rational. They don't know exact chances and so on, and will genuinely believe that Women are more suited lesser roles in general. But like this type of system would push well meaning sympathetic people towards misogynistic actions and them believing that them doing so is right.

 

[Slyvena]

On another note I'm extremely impressed with how insidious [Service to Man] in perpetuating misogyny.

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Thank you. I did design the underlying systems of the world to justify why they could persist in a stable format for long periods of time.
Given that magic and Ethea eliminated most of the historical reasons for misogyny by granting everyone a lottery at effective superhuman feats, any form of societal discrimination needed to gain a replacement or simply not be there.

In this case, as many of you have long figured out, an offered Ethos' selection is strongly influenced by both individual and cultural psychological states. This means broad Ethea selection trends are self-reinforcing and memetic, a trend must by definition grow to the maximum limits of its bounds unless there is a counter-force to reverse or stabilize it. Given humans' natural propensity to grade things in a hierarchy, it was literally inevitable for society to come to view one gender as better suited to some tasks than the other based on nothing more than limited sample size and confirmation biases. The trend takes hold, strengthens itself, bam, [Service to Man].
Hence why even a wildly independent spirited girl willing to run into the wilderness for a better chance at an adventurous Ethos still hit the unlock DC for a subservient Ethos multiple times before it faded.

You all skipped over the "parents are furious with your Ethos choice" storyline by jumping straight to a "oh thank god you're alive" one. Yolun would have been much more forceful in trying to crimp your adventure inclinations if you hadn't decisively proven you might just run away again (and he was suffering from grief-rebound whiplash). And Sarah, well, you understand why she fears the mysterious unknown a little more deeply than most would.

All that said, Harmuph is not necessarily representative of the wider world. And for reasons that will slowly become more clear over time, "Give everyone better Ethea and live in equality" is not quite as simple a solution as you might imagine.

Chapter is written but is an absolute monster of a thing in both size and technical content. Who knows how long edits will take.

 

[NotteBoy97]

All that said, Harmuph is not necessarily representative of the wider world. And for reasons that will slowly become more clear over time, "Give everyone better Ethea and live in equality" is not quite as simple a solution as you might imagine.

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Yeah giving people powers doesn't really solve things it just gives people powers to pigeon hole themselves and others with. You need to change the reason why people get the powers to have a positive effect on society. Things like mandatory education and the like I imagine would help resolve the misogyny issue but I doubt it would be that easy to push such a reform given how the world seems sort of death worldy and that education is probably how nobles consolidate power in their class because if Peasants all have classes like Farmer than the Nobles all with Knight or Mage or whatever don't need to fear a rebellion overly much.

 

[noncannon]

This is more evidence that there aren't neighboring nations in conflict, as a neighbor that didn't waste 25% of its population on a marginal ethos would outcompete a nation that didn't (or at least force reforms).

That said, it's also possible the 25% rate is a Harmuph (or rural, or deep interior) thing.

Hmm, monster in technical content, or with monsters technically in the contents? Either way, awesome; but, I take it that means we've drawn much more attention than we would have wanted. I mean, assuming the Lifeline thing wasn't something of a giveaway.

You all skipped over the "parents are furious with your Ethos choice" storyline by jumping straight to a "oh thank god you're alive" one. Yolun would have been much more forceful in trying to crimp your adventure inclinations if you hadn't decisively proven you might just run away again (and he was suffering from grief-rebound whiplash). And Sarah, well, you understand why she fears the mysterious unknown a little more deeply than most would.

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"You are... Dreaming within the Forest? WTF Lilly!"

(Although, to be honest, I'm not sure how that would've worked. She already got her ethos; that ship has sailed, and they don't yet know that there are fifteen other ships to sail alongside it.)

 

[Zaealix]

Yeah giving people powers doesn't really solve things it just gives people powers to pigeon hole themselves and others with. You need to change the reason why people get the powers to have a positive effect on society. Things like mandatory education and the like I imagine would help resolve the misogyny issue but I doubt it would be that easy to push such a reform given how the world seems sort of death worldy and that education is probably how nobles consolidate power in their class because if Peasants all have classes like Farmer than the Nobles all with Knight or Mage or whatever don't need to fear a rebellion overly much.

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For that matter, it seems highly plausible to me that peasants/noblity divide is even more incentivized, courtesy of the notion of people gradually getting better and better Ethos for farming and crafting skills that would reinforce that they should 'stay within their station' instead of say 'trying to reach for a better life'.

Like, monsters at the gates can be a real thing, but dungeons being potentially straight-up cleared out seems to me like an excellent reason for a 'noble house' to fall-without the dungeon to grind levels against, the sons can't keep up with the deeds of the fathers, and thus starts the decline...

 

[GlassMask]

This is more evidence that there aren't neighboring nations in conflict, as a neighbor that didn't waste 25% of its population on a marginal ethos would outcompete a nation that didn't (or at least force reforms).

That said, it's also possible the 25% rate is a Harmuph (or rural, or deep interior) thing.

Yay monster chapter! But, I take it that means we've drawn much more attention than we would have wanted.



"You are... Dreaming within the Forest? WTF Lilly!"

(Although, to be honest, I'm not sure how that would've worked. She already got her ethos; that ship has sailed, and they don't yet know that there are fifteen other ships to sail alongside it.)

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The thing is that [Service to Man] is not really a marginal ethos. For one thing, it empowers the husband to a decent extent. That does matter. The other thing is that in a pre modern world, housework genuinely took a lot more freaking time and having a orderly well maintained household is pretty valuable.

I suspect that a lot of the rest of the women who dont choose [Service to Man] are because they get essentially a Common or higher "Housewife" ethos instead (what this mean might vary a lot depending on the woman though).

 

[Simon_Jester]

Horrifying perverse alternate hypothesis:

[Service to Man], and various evolutions of that Ethos,* may indirectly contribute to a large society's ability to defend itself despite making the women who take the Ethos incapable of defending them-selves.

Going back to Page 1, Slyvena said of [Service to Man]:

"It's your mothers Ethos. Among other things, you know it somehow helps your father be a better carpenter and apparently if your mother administers medicinal herbs to your father it works better than if any other person used them on him."

...

I don't know what kind of things [Service to Man] specifically chains into aside from that. But we know that other Ethoi, when developed, tend to branch out into significant enhancements of one kind or another. I don't know what the branch options are for [Service to Man], but off the top of my head I can easily imagine the Housewife Ethos as leading to things like:

1) "Superhumanly industrious, even if the actual products are nothing special"
2) "Augments everything another person does,"
3) "Provides bottomless well of moral support for several other people,"
4) "Somehow keeps the family adequately fed when on poor rations,"
5) "Bears and raises significantly more, and/or healthier, children."

Turning 25% of your national population into support personnel who can do things like that...

😨

...I feel like I'm going to need to go take a shower after writing this, but... um...

It's not necessarily a useless Ethos from a civilizational standpoint, it's just a useless Ethos from the standpoint of everyone who takes it unless that person is a self-abnegating indoctrination victim. The collective whole may nevertheless receive benefits from it, especially if that other 75% of the population has superpowers of their own that work more effectively towards collective goals because of the support.

I suspect that a lot of the rest of the women who dont choose [Service to Man] are because they get essentially a Common or higher "Housewife" ethos instead (what this mean might vary a lot depending on the woman though).

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Something like [Truly Amazing Weaver] or [Bakes Literally Magical Pies] or something?

 

[Thebigpieman]

...I feel like I'm going to need to go take a shower after writing this, but... um...

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So how's that shower huh? I felt dirty just reading that...

 

[GlassMask]

Something like [Truly Amazing Weaver] or [Bakes Literally Magical Pies] or something?

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My initial thought here was more imagining a more Social Based Ethos here. One revolved around understanding/manipulating people could easily be of use to any Wife especially in say an upper class family.

 

[noncannon]

The thing is that [Service to Man] is not really a marginal ethos. For one thing, it empowers the husband to a decent extent. That does matter.

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Empowering is good, but it doesn't beat 2x.

@Simon_Jester Some of those seem more like family boosts than what [Service to Man] would suggest. If it made Sarah better at taking care of Lilly, for instance, I think Lilly would know (since she knows it does for Yolun).

It's not completely ruled out, but seems unlikely to be a 2x family support ethos.

Edit: We have a primary source. Let's ask Sarah.

The other thing is that in a pre modern world, housework genuinely took a lot more freaking time and having a orderly well maintained household is pretty valuable.

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Could be a reason for it to be a rural thing. In an urban area, cleaning ethos that make you clean 10x better would allow for gains through specialization, doing work for multiple households.

 

[Kymecho]

Looking at this discussion, suddenly my fan-canon Wedding Planner Ethos is a lot less funny

 

[Imugi]

It would probably be closer to a Matchmaker Ethos.

 

[Simon_Jester]

So how's that shower huh? I felt dirty just reading that...

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I'm truly sorry, the thought hit me and I felt obliged to get it out there.

Unhealthy just isn't the same as nonfunctional, and remembering that is probably going to matter at some point.

@Simon_Jester Some of those seem more like family boosts than what [Service to Man] would suggest.

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Maybe so. On the other hand, [Service to Man] is clearly the 'Housewife Ethos,' so it seems likely a lot of the women who have it are genuinely good at housewife stuff. Things like cooking, weaving, maintenance of the home itself, performing the 'wifely duty' of (ick) providing a man with strong sons (ick ick ick)...

I think you see what I'm getting at, though I obviously can't prove it.

If it made Sarah better at taking care of Lilly, for instance, I think Lilly would know (since she knows it does for Yolun).

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Yes, it would.

It may be gender-specific and thus not benefiting Lilly whatsoever even if it does benefit her brothers, which is... well, more ick... but plausible given that it's right there in the name.

It's not completely ruled out, but seems unlikely to be a 2x family support ethos.

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It sure as hell isn't augmenting the whole society to the same extent that, say, the town militia's Ethoi augment their abilities compared to an equivalent fighting force of mundane people who just carried swords and spears.

On the other hand, that militia force is the handpicked very small minority of the community chosen for the best combat Ethoi. There are probably a lot of Ethoi with much weaker secondary combat applications who didn't make the grade into the militia.

 

[Slyvena]

This is more evidence that there aren't neighboring nations in conflict

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Lilly doesn't know any real names or history or anything. But she does know some basics.

North:
North West is mountains.
North leads to another kingdom. Rumours of sickness and poor soil, no one likes traders from that way.
East:
Leads into harsh arid and desert-like land. The Last human kingdom before the goblinoids is this way.
South:
Directly south is the forest. South West is the Silent Sea. South East is more desert.
West:
The rest of your own kingdom above the Silent Sea, a big river is that way. There's more human kingdoms even further along.

She hasn't heard of any wars her countrymen have been involved in at least in her lifetime.
So, plenty of other people around as potential competition but clearly no major conflicts of which news has widely spread.

Although, to be honest, I'm not sure how that would've worked. She already got her ethos; that ship has sailed

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Parents don't have to be rational when afraid for their children's safety. If Yolun thought he had a shot at convincing you to stay safe, he'd take it. Even if he thought it would make you hate him, he'd do it. But you crushed that with your disappearing act, he realised he would simply drive you away instead. Prior to the heart-to-heart he was mulling this over trying to figure out what the hell he was supposed to do.


- - - - - - - - -
On the bright Side
Since Sync and Divergence are a thing, men can't just randomly mistreat and crush their wives' spirits. So despite the magically enforced rigidity this society finds itself in, on a day to day living basis, it's objectively better for women than our own feudal period. Men have a vested interest in helping their wives grow and develop their Ethos as much as possible. As many have noted, still all kinds of room for wildly unhealthy/immoral/etc relationship dynamics there. But there is a least a bare minimum utility consideration holding up the bar.
There's other horrible silver linings too! If a woman's husband dies and his estate is not enough to provide for her, she and her children are unlikely to end up destitute. Because honestly, an elderly woman is going to have developed her Ethos a fair bit. All kinds of households will have work for her that some young beauty just won't be able to match.

Finding out more:
While not impossible, I don't see Lilly being inclined to ask unless through a Write In. There are a couple paths that could naturally bring it up, we'll see.
You haven't really received the typical education since that wasn't what Yolun actually intended for you. (Though would have been quite happy with that choice as a backup.)
Honestly, your mother, your friends, almost any man, probably even Zach knows more about it than you. Sarah just didn't see the point explaining something Lilly was so obviously apathetic too and which wasn't going to apply.

 

[noncannon]

[Matchmaker] (Common): (Gossip)
Love is in the air--or meek obedience, anyway. Introduce the blushing brides and grooms most compatible with one another. Determine the destinies and ultimate fates of families--whether for their own sake, or for the productive capacity of the state. Independent coworkers or submissive doormats, 2x households or ones of servitude; what does it matter as long as both are happy and/or serve the state?

[Matchbreaker] (Common): (Gossip) {Inverted}
How dare those couples join up without your blessing? After all the trust you've shown, is your sole reward to be left out in the cold? You refuse. The game of love is rigged, and it's time to flip the board. Stoke anger, raise apathy; introduce the concept of divorce to your society a hundred years early. The scorn those lovebirds have shown you will prove the scorn they spare for one another, as you make their lives into a living hell... more than marriage already is, anyway.

{Mannoth Note: Drop into an enemy state for maximum effectiveness.}

On the other hand, that militia force is the handpicked very small minority of the community chosen for the best combat Ethoi. There are probably a lot of Ethoi with much weaker secondary combat applications who didn't make the grade into the militia.

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Thing is, if a polity doesn't waste 25% of its population on Service to Man, the guard would be 33% larger (100%/75%) no matter which cutoff point is being used. That's a 10.6 size elite party instead of 8, or 248 guards instead of 186.

In order to beat this simple numbers increase, [Service to Man] would have to provide 33% increased effectiveness to the force as a whole. Even in the strongest case where every guard was supported by it, I'm not getting the impression that it's a 33% boost. More likely (given that [Service] is only chosen by half), at most half the guards are supported by it, in which case an at least 66% boost is required; out of the question.

There may be some leeway to these numbers due to concentrated vs dispersed force, but not that much leeway.

If Yolun thought he had a shot at convincing you to stay safe, he'd take it. Even if he thought it would make you hate him, he'd do it. But you crushed that with your disappearing act, he realised he would simply drive you away instead. Prior to the heart-to-heart he was mulling this over trying to figure out what the hell he was supposed to do.

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Good thing he didn't get the memo the disappearing act was unintentional

Honestly, your mother, your friends, almost any man, probably even Zach knows more about it than you. Sarah just didn't see the point explaining something Lilly was so obviously apathetic too and which wasn't going to apply.

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Indeed; little did she know that Lilly was going to become an ethos activist and/or social optimizer and/or {REDACTED IN CASE OF MIND READERS} assuming we don't die first

 

[Silverking]

Teeing off from this discussion, I think I've found some very interesting theories about this world and how Ethos works within.

1. Nations in this world are VERY slow to pivot.

During World War II, the U.S. had to adapt its industry and professions in order to mobilize for war. Factories switched from producing civilian goods to making bullets and tanks, farm boys had to train to become paratroopers, and the women had to take up some of the factory jobs. Trying to replicate such a move when everybody picks what they want to do for the rest of their lives when they are 12? Utterly disastrous. It's not like a Farmer can "take a few levels in Soldier", their Ethos only levels up when following their profession, and "a Dagger, try as it might, will never effectively do the work of an Axe." Any kingdom caught by surprise would have to rely on either the more esoteric skills of the more common classes (i.e. True Song in a [Brave Blood]), or they will need to shell out cash to those half-crazed adventurers. This will hopefully buy enough time to convince a bunch of 12-year-olds to reconsider their career paths and wait for them to grow and mature...and that might be too long to wait.

2. Bards are a King's best friend.

You are a forward-thinking King (or at least you've got all the Concordance people working for you), and you've got a rough 5-year plan for how to want your kingdom to expand and grow. But your plan will need a few changes to the ranks in order to come to fruition. You need Calvary Riders, Fortification Builders, and quite a few of what your rival nation calls "Engineers". You can start recruitment and advertising, but this plan will need more than some "jack of trades" to see to completion. You need to swing the collective consciousness of the common man enough to reach your true target demographic of pre-teens. You need a bard.

Need to get into war footing? Spread tales of glory and prestige gained on the battlefield. Think the war's coming to a close and not wanting a bunch of violence-based thugs popping up with few legal prospects? "Oh, what bliss to be had in with a full harvest and a peaceful home." Need a few more Engineers? "Hark, and hear the tale of Tally the Tinkerer, who first trained at the War College (scholarships available)."

Why, yes, the media IS trying to manipulate you. The future of the nation depends on it.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Thing is, if a polity doesn't waste 25% of its population on Service to Man, the guard would be 33% larger (100%/75%) no matter which cutoff point is being used. That's a 10.6 size elite party instead of 8, or 248 guards instead of 186.

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I think you'd need to deal with the society's general sexism to do that, not just eliminate the [Service to Man] Ethos in particular.

The militia wasn't in a 2:1 male:female ratio as it was, strongly suggesting that 'martial' Ethoi are disproportionately rare among women even when they don't take [Service to Man]

And "eliminate sexism from society as a whole" sounds hard enough that it becomes a lot less surprising that none of the neighboring kingdoms have gained a competitive advantage over ours by 'just' doing it.

In order to beat this simple numbers increase, [Service to Man] would have to provide 33% increased effectiveness to the force as a whole. Even in the strongest case where every guard was supported by it, I'm not getting the impression that it's a 33% boost. More likely, at most half the guards are supported by it, in which case an at least 66% boost is required; out of the question.

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You're not wrong, but this ignores the potential for indirect effects and things that don't directly manifest in the combat performance of the town militia.

I'm not saying it's "as efficient as," but the effects might show up in surprising ways, and in multiple surprising ways, that reduce the competitive disadvantage more than you'd expect.

 

[noncannon]

I suppose, if society steers women towards [crummy ethos], it's not much more effective even if they were guaranteed not to pick [Service]. It helps that the most likely impetus for a campaign against [Service] is: "we really need more and better ethos to survive, please try to pick those."

I do think that societies that were less inclined to direct women toward [Service] (say, only 10% instead of 25%) would be visibly more powerful than those that weren't; not only in immediate clashes, but in long-term build-up. However, Slyvena seems to have painted a picture of relative peace, so there might be little impetus for change.

I'm not saying it's "as efficient as," but the effects might show up in surprising ways, and in multiple surprising ways, that reduce the competitive disadvantage more than you'd expect.

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Ehh, I'm not seeing any reason to postulate additional boosting powers, only reasons not to (Lilly would probably know if Sarah can boost others the way she does Yolun).

(Household-work powers, on the other hand, seem to have been a correct guess, as widows with a developed [Service] ethos are hired for that.)

Ultimately, I am only gut-estimating based on the available sparse descriptions, that [Service] doesn't provide the 33% minimum, much less the more-likely required 66%+ boost for parity. It's not at the point of comparing direct/indirect effects.

That said, Lilly knows even less than Zach, who would theoretically have even less reason to know, so... there could be other missing sub-powers in play.

 

[grommile]

introduce the concept of divorce to your society a hundred years early.

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point of order: the concept of divorce is of comparable age to the concept of formalized marriage law

 

[noncannon]

I was taking another look at the map. Simon_Jester suggested that Harumph is in the polity's deep interior, but it's looking more that Harumph is actually near a South-East desert border that no one cares about (and which serves as a natural barrier against whatever is on the other side, which might be nothing).

This would potentially be a good direction to escape in if we had to (except that our druid powers means the actual best direction is to get lost in one of the forests).

There were some inconsistencies as to where exactly our house is. "1.11 Sweeping South" suggests it's to the South (naturally) of Harumph, but "1.5 Welcome to Harmuph" suggests that it's to the east, while there's an option in "1.7 Acceptance" to head towards the "northern woods". I'm guessing the earlier directions were retconned, and the house was finalized at being South (probably at that south pictograph on the map).

I was trying to figure this out to estimate the map's scale, since we knew she could make it (using "incredible" speed) to the Silent Sea and back between midnight and morning. Assuming this means 3 hours either way at 10-30kph, the distance between house and sea is 30-90km. To check against this, a normal-speed ride from house to Harumph takes several hours (say, 3 hours). At 15kph for a horse-drawn wagon, this is around 50km between house and Harumph; comparing distances, this suggests the higher end estimate of around 100km between house and sea (and an implied long-distance velocity of 30-35 kph for Lilly).

The problem with these estimates, naturally, is that they were from the same chapters as the seemingly retconned directions, so...

...

Friendly reminder of what we're dealing with:

Your specific iteration of [Cleaver of Fortune] was one of three likely choices, you rolled the only one not easily detectable by the Lore Warden. An Essence Healer who was also a detectable potent Concordance manipulator would not have left that Office with her father.

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...
...

"You are in fact the second child returned after a scried confirmation of departure I have come across in my tenure, or rather, the second that didn't need to be forcibly persuaded back into the next life."

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"How typical of this backwater that I should come so close to a worthy find, only for it to fall short of exemplary at the most essential step."

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Myah, is one (or both of these) you?

The Lore Warden rotates, though, so could easily be referring to somewhere else.

- Got our first Crit 100 roll of the story so far. It was a background world building one though. Exciting stuff. Lowers Lilly's chances of living to 18 though

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If it's not a spoiler, was this to do with the Rapid Iterator or something even more backgroundy?

[Intuitor] (Common)
A thousand years and every tutor under the sun, still you could not begin to scratch the surface of the sum total of possible knowledge. You accept this fact, but nevertheless will never stop your upward climb. A knack for learning and mastery of diverse or tricky talents. The Jack of All trades empowered by a dedicated Ethos. "I may not be the best juggler, dancer or singer, but I can do all three at the same time better than most." Your already sharp mind shall be honed and polished to a truly deadly point. From this starting point, your Ethos could develop into a truly strange and unique thing.

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Rereading the debates, I'm now wondering if this can be upgraded into an [Intuitive Aptitude] ethos. Wait a minute.

From this starting point, your Ethos could develop into a truly strange and unique thing.

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[Intuitive Aptitude] (Unique): (Eclipses...?)
You have an instinctive understanding of the systems around you: how they work, how to fix them, how they can be improved. With this understanding comes a hunger to know more, to examine any object of interest in all its complexity, until you have comprehended its every subtle aspect. No system, mechanical or social, stands beyond your discerning eye, from timepieces to governments and individuals, and perhaps even... other ethos? You can't quite tell how they work just from watching, however; it seems you'll have to pick their brain.

 

[darknessworld]

I'm guessing the earlier directions were retconned, and the house was finalized at being South

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This is a bad assumption to make when you can find out that a map was used from nearly the beginning.

It is more likely that the road isn't straight.

 

[sheep-dodger]

you know, I wonder how much [Service To Man] is really gender-specific. Obviously in this society it very much is, but it could very well be that this is just societal norms pushing boys away from the mindset needed to take it and girls towards it. I'd expect that if you waved a wand and made society egalitarian [Service To Man] would still show up for people, just for anyone who wanted to go into carework or running a household. After all "Man" can both mean specifically men or more broadly humanity.
I should also mention that despite all the deserved criticisms of the Ethos, the abilities imparted by it are undoubtedly crucial in this pre-industrial society. In a world without all the modern appliances we have access to now, running a household, cooking, cleaning, etc require a lot of time and effort. (i.e. instead of just running the washing machine you have to organise a whole washing day because that's hard work that takes a lot of time and effort to complete) I'd expect that those families where both parents have valuable Ethea of some sort probably somewhat resemble modern Double Earner households and likely still hire someone with [Service To Man] as a housekeeper of sorts or maybe for specific tasks if they can't afford to hire someone full-time.