It's a Girl's World -- And Lilly wants Adventure
- Location
- Europe
So, the closest thing to the inverted source of Maw is Essence.
Yeah, makes sense. Yalśfreet probably already knew about the possibility of the Maw's coming, so he prepared for it.
Then I guess it is too bad that probably no one else noticed and just went on to make more sources that aren't necessarily as useful as they could be for the final battle. Goddamit Ev'aclliál.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Inversion seems to be a kind of "Know what, Fuck all of you I'm sick of this bullshit" move. Doesn't really fit Maws "JOIN US, WE SHALL DEVOUR THE VERY GODS TOGETHAAAAA!" deal.
We've only recieved one non foundational one
...I don't think Inversions use Trauma per say. If there's a connecting thread between Zach, Lilly, and Myah, it would be closer to frustration. Lilly hounded by secrets, Zach unable to let go of his bitterness and wish that lilly had died, Myah resenting the fact that people did abandon her even as she wanted them to save her.
Its not enough for it to be traumatic. It needs to be something that makes you want to flip the metaphorical table.
We've only recieved one non foundational one
And it was right after learning about our name and with Martin trying to hide the nature of the dungeon, which Lilly was not happy with. Add in that she'd earlier learned why her dad had acted that way all these years (even in a better context), and it's not hard to draw a line to lilly using force to just get past all this bullshit and for people to just fucking tell her.
...I don't think Inversions use Trauma per say. If there's a connecting thread between Zach, Lilly, and Myah, it would be closer to frustration. Lilly hounded by secrets, Zach unable to let go of his bitterness and wish that lilly had died, Myah resenting the fact that people did abandon her even as she wanted them to save her.
Its not enough for it to be traumatic. It needs to be something that makes you want to flip the metaphorical table.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
...
We know that all Ethae have an Objective, right? And Inversion tends to happen in those with an Established Ethos spending an extended period of time with critically low Sync, right?
Is it then that {Inversion} is, in short, moving from "Attempting to achieve something" to "Deciding to Stop Something from Happening?"
Well, these are all unknown for now, at least until we're willing to risk trying for an {Inverted} Ethos ourselves.
We know that all Ethae have an Objective, right? And Inversion tends to happen in those with an Established Ethos spending an extended period of time with critically low Sync, right?
Is it then that {Inversion} is, in short, moving from "Attempting to achieve something" to "Deciding to Stop Something from Happening?"
Well, these are all unknown for now, at least until we're willing to risk trying for an {Inverted} Ethos ourselves.
- Location
- San Ramon, CA
Technically, Lilly's qualified for TWO regular Inverteds; we just never learned the details of the first one.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Not sure myself, just... I tear the Veil's description, or rather it's general vibe and frustration, reminds me very much of a character from .//hack G.U.
Don't want to spoil too much about that game, but for anyone who is wondering...
the character in question yelling "No one ever looks at me!", after having spent most of her life trying to match whatever she thinks others want her to be in order to have some form of recognition, only for it to seemingly all be for nothing, and in the case of trying to fit in with her classmates, resulted in her parents emotionally abusing her for not being 'Ladylike'.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
What I'm trying to say is that...
I think Inverted Ethea are kind of like a 'Dark Prayer'? Like an answer to a frustration within you, giving you just what you need to answer the bitter resentment in your heart.
We all make wishes like that, but usually we're all in positions where we can choose to ignore them. But what if you're not? What if you're hounded by secrets adults refuse to tell you because you're too young? What if the bonds you bear only remind you of how bleak and lonely your situation is?
If you're in that situation, and there's no Saviour Lilly coming to help you... then you have to find your own satisfaction. You make sure those people who could have helped you but didn't take responsibility for their failure. You take the secrets that keep being hidden from you by force. You reach the point where the stress and deceit becomes too much and you just want to act on those impulses because otherwise it feels like you're drowning.
It's dark... but there's a kind of release in it. It's not that you want to hurt the world, it's that it's trying to give an answer to all the parts you otherwise don't show. And those parts aren't lies, or not part of you, they're just (possibly rightfully) bitter. In that sense, Manoth wouldn't really be Malicious. He might even see those parts as being more honest or truer desires.
I think Inverted Ethea are kind of like a 'Dark Prayer'? Like an answer to a frustration within you, giving you just what you need to answer the bitter resentment in your heart.
We all make wishes like that, but usually we're all in positions where we can choose to ignore them. But what if you're not? What if you're hounded by secrets adults refuse to tell you because you're too young? What if the bonds you bear only remind you of how bleak and lonely your situation is?
If you're in that situation, and there's no Saviour Lilly coming to help you... then you have to find your own satisfaction. You make sure those people who could have helped you but didn't take responsibility for their failure. You take the secrets that keep being hidden from you by force. You reach the point where the stress and deceit becomes too much and you just want to act on those impulses because otherwise it feels like you're drowning.
It's dark... but there's a kind of release in it. It's not that you want to hurt the world, it's that it's trying to give an answer to all the parts you otherwise don't show. And those parts aren't lies, or not part of you, they're just (possibly rightfully) bitter. In that sense, Manoth wouldn't really be Malicious. He might even see those parts as being more honest or truer desires.
- Location
- Head in the clouds
Something else is that at least with Myah - I think she had ran out of options. Timeline wise she'd invert then get strangled but with how concordance works the inversion might have been in response to the strangling.
And we know she'd been looking for a way out prior because she asked Lily how she hid from the Diviners.
Throw in how abusive situations get worse with additional stress ... There was a wolf pack attack.
Long term stressor that the Ethos can't react to that is utterly contradictory to the idea behind said Ethos...
I very much want to see her Ethos in detail but ...
The inversion risk went away due to Lily decisively acting.
But I think how it stopped the situation cold is down to that act basically single handed reaffirm the idea behind the Ethos. Especially with how Lily very specifically was voted to go to Myah before the Concordance reveal. For nothing at all. Because Myah was her friend and she was concerned.
The bond would not be one sided.
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
I think we shouldn't be thinking of Inverted Ethos but of Inverted Sources since from what little we know Inverted Essence seems to do with death and maybe something with 'sucking' life out of people you're bonded to which is the opposite of normal Essence's theming of life and connection and how normal essence seems to 'disappear' when something dies. We don't really understand other Sources well enough to really make guesses (and I don't really remember that much lol) but I imagine inverted Flow has to deal with the 'machine' that keeps oblivion away and allows consciousness to exist and maybe instead of maintaining that machine inverted flow intentionally breaks it or how Pithe seems focused on the body and your form inverted pithe might is altering your body and form.
I don't think the mindset is what leads to inverted ethos I think it's the mind set leads to an inverted source which naturally leads to inverted ethos. Mannon's special since she saw these natural 'failure state' inversions and realized she could make ethos specifically suited for inverted sources instead of an inversion forcibly turning a normal ethos into an inverted one.
I don't think the mindset is what leads to inverted ethos I think it's the mind set leads to an inverted source which naturally leads to inverted ethos. Mannon's special since she saw these natural 'failure state' inversions and realized she could make ethos specifically suited for inverted sources instead of an inversion forcibly turning a normal ethos into an inverted one.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I'm pretty sure we saw Negative Essence starting to form around Myah when we first came to Harmuph.
Anyway... I.. don't entirely agree, but that's mostly because I view it more as how they're interacting with their sources - stuff like the description for Pithe
Make it feel like it's not a seperate inverted source, but the User interacting with a source in a way that's not 'supposed' to happen. I suspect Negative Essence is a term for Essence that's been altered by a specific process/emotion, which would make sense if Myah is an essence user and was giving it off as she came closer to inversion.
I do think that you'd need the right mindset to interact with a source in that way though, and that might be part of what's needed to actually cause an inversion. So this is more me being nitpicky than actually disagreeing.
We already know that ethos have a kind of intended destination, a specific direction that are 'supposed' to grow, which is represented by synch. We also know that our experiences/choices/soul can divert from that destination either with a detour or a full break. Brave Blood was far out of synch until we picked up a power that related directly to blood.
Ethos are part of a grand plan, likey to uplift humanity so they can make a real contribution to divine struggles. Maybe they have the duel purpose of granting power and also leading people to be in line spiritually and psychologically with the source.
Inverted ethos are existing ethos that have been 'inverted - placed or lying upside down or in the opposite position, order, or arrangement from usual."
They grow in the opposite direction then what was originally intended. They lead you to being the opposite of what the source wants.
Ethos are part of a grand plan, likey to uplift humanity so they can make a real contribution to divine struggles. Maybe they have the duel purpose of granting power and also leading people to be in line spiritually and psychologically with the source.
Inverted ethos are existing ethos that have been 'inverted - placed or lying upside down or in the opposite position, order, or arrangement from usual."
They grow in the opposite direction then what was originally intended. They lead you to being the opposite of what the source wants.
- Location
- Head in the clouds
I think that's essentially one way to get it.
Again Myah. She only had four expansions and I don't think she's had the time to have Brave Blood style divergent growth. And her risk reverted upon rescue without any additional expansions.
I think it's both the growth and the mission statement pieces. Like how Dream In a Forest is about connection.
- Location
- San Ramon, CA
I seem to recall some earlier discussion about the viability of choosing an Inverted Ethos. Even if we had enough soul tools from the Tower and our other Ethae to potentially mitigate the worst "mechanical" effects, we would still have the problem of "is this ideology really something we want Lilly following through on?". For example, [I Tear the Veil] came with a warning:
There's more than just the powers to consider; picking a new Ethos makes it a part of who Lilly is and how she sees the world. Our picks so far haven't had any real ideological conflicts (although I'm not entirely sure what [Cleaver of Fortune]'s mission statement actually is), but we need to be careful about what we pick moving forward, lest we get an Ethos that will win us the next battle but lose us the war from incompatible means of advancement.
There's more than just the powers to consider; picking a new Ethos makes it a part of who Lilly is and how she sees the world. Our picks so far haven't had any real ideological conflicts (although I'm not entirely sure what [Cleaver of Fortune]'s mission statement actually is), but we need to be careful about what we pick moving forward, lest we get an Ethos that will win us the next battle but lose us the war from incompatible means of advancement.
I'm slowly making it through my reread but early story Lily very much chafes against societal expectations and/or having her future decided for her - whether it be doing what is expected of a girl in this setting, inheriting her father's trade (remember the story literally begins on her running away from home because she didn't want to have her Ethos selection in the prepared place her parents set up but wanted to feel some kind of agency), etc.
[Cleaver] seems very much in line with by allowing Lilly to determine her own fate/unmake any such determined-by-others futures for her. When she awakens to it she even sees the line of her future unfurl from a deterministic line into an ocean of possibility in front of her.
- Location
- United States of America, Michigan
Oh Pithe isn't supposed to be physical huh? So it can summon physical things like that one brave blood option of shield (though that did say summon and not create and we never took it so who knows) but not be made physical normally unless inverted? I guess it kind of makes sense since if we think of Pithe as a 'force' then you can't have physical force without physics being real funky even if yuou can have physical objects that have force acting on them.
Makes me wonder about the creation of the Pithe Field and the angel of the same name we saw in 'Genesis'. Is the Pithe Field kind of like say our own realities 4 fundamental Forces of Strong Force, Weak Force, Electromagnetic force and gravity? Cause I can't imagine the layer this story takes place was still close to 'solid' even after Essence was created/spread so maybe Pithe was installing a 'physic engine' to reality? Then I guess Concordance was making cause and effect work and flow was making it possible for 'NPCs' to exist and think?
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
The Concord existed before Yalsfreet Yalsyeeted himself:
Now changes to the Concord almost certainly happened, but I doubt the Eras are as simple as "New Source".
Yeah Cleaver seems to be all about denying predstination or fixed futures.
Something something Monado something something The future is ours to decide.
Edit: Or to put it a different way, Cleaver ensures that there's never going to be a situation where there's no way for us to reach the future we want, and even if there's no apparent way we can cut our own path forwards
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- Location
- San Ramon, CA
...That has the potential to be terrifying, once we get to a point where we are proactive with our manipulations instead of simply reacting to whatever's happening right in front of us.
Beginner: Move your shield just right to block an arrow from an assassin.
Intermediate: Leave a dagger in the nook of a tree. In 3 days, a potential ally will find it and use it to defend himself in order to make it to the town that you're staying at.
Advanced: A goblin army is a month's march away from your village. A wagon wheel in the caravan suddenly breaks, which sets a chain of events in motion that leads to them encountering and killing Lord Waters without you having to lift a finger, while leaving your village unscathed.
Half Moon
In the end, there is no end.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Oh, how I long for Temporal Redeemer, for even more Fun.
Imagine. Breaking the wheel of the caravan three months ago, instead of now. Leaving a dagger in the tree's sapling, to be pulled out just when needed. Not moving your shield at all, because guess what! You already tripped the guy shooting at you.
- Location
- Dragyxx
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Problem with Temporal Redeemer is that as a high-fracture Concordance Ethos, you have to constantly watch out for paradoxing yourself out of existence.
Which is to say you'd still want to use that shield, since it would be a silly thing to risk Fracture on.
Which is to say you'd still want to use that shield, since it would be a silly thing to risk Fracture on.
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Half Moon
In the end, there is no end.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Paradox users have that risk. If regular Concordance users have it, we have not been told. Or, for that matter, if Temporal Redeemer is high fracture. (It probably is, but we can't be sure.)
- Location
- San Ramon, CA
On the one hand, word spreading about us having [Cleaver] is more likely to be harmful than good, as people will start either trying to counteract it or perhaps try to kill us outright. On the other hand...
Lilly: You are going to let me and my family leave here.
Crime Boss: Really? Or else what?
Lilly: Or else I throw this marble out the window into the busy cobble streets below.
Crime Boss: ...W-what does that do?
Lilly: Who knows? Would you like to find out how expensive it will be for you?
Lilly: You are going to let me and my family leave here.
Crime Boss: Really? Or else what?
Lilly: Or else I throw this marble out the window into the busy cobble streets below.
Crime Boss: ...W-what does that do?
Lilly: Who knows? Would you like to find out how expensive it will be for you?
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
It was noted at some point that if certain people in power realise Lilly has this, they're going to be very concerned.
Also, I'm not sure if we should get a High Fracture Concordance Ethos: We'd probably lose the subtle but fine control we have over Cleaver. Same goes for High for Innate Tension, because then we'd probably have restrictions placed on Ladder and Ply like we currently have for Sample Space, and whilst the extent of their effects would likely improve significantly, we'd also have to limit ourselves a lot more, so less passive but useful information grinding.
Basically, unlike essence, if we get another Concordance ethos, we should probably look for something closer to Cleaver as opposed to something radically different, as that might just end up screwing Cleaver over.
I think they're referring to us overusing our abilities past what our Concordant weight can afford (more likely with High tension values, e.g. Sample Space). We know that High tension users pushed too far can "Erase themselves and events from history".
High Fracture is able to connect events that otherwise shouldn't be, and allows a lot more vulgar effects as a result, but the caveat is that you can't fully control what your abilities will do.
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