It's a Girl's World -- And Lilly wants Adventure

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I think his own Blood condemns him is us, by agreeing to the game where the Child wants to manipulate him.

...Or it isn't just a promise, it's a set of steps. The Pre-factors needed to make a certain event occur. But that's a thought to follow up for later.

...I also think I suspect I know why it'd be left field - It'd be something that happens before Zachs inversion, not during it - And why it's so Arbitrarily Cruel, moreso than Lilly losing a member of her family.

Because Lilly would be forced to Kill her own Brother.
 
sioduskseeker said:
I wonder if "His own blood condemns him" implies that something bad happens to male descendants of Bloomlings when they reach a certain age or a certain level, or maybe only if their Ethos is Inverted. I don't think we know anything about whether Liatris or Marigold had any brothers and what their status would be. Alternatively, it could just be that one of the main reasons Manoth and Nullerror are interested in Zach in the first place is because he's a Bloomling's oldest son. Even if nothing bad is guaranteed to happen to such people, perhaps they have some interesting metaphysical significance that makes them valuable for experimentation and/or torment.
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Signs point to Liatris having no surviving brothers, there's never been mention of uncles, aunts or cousins. And she's the one from the area as I don't see her moving from her hometown easily.

It could be a case of there never being any but being a Bloomling is not hampering Liatris' ability to have sons.

Other option is that being a Bloomling doesn't stop trauma/beating induced miscarriage but besides Liatris' demeanor pointing to not a secure childhood there's no evidence for that.

But Zach does fit the definition of an underdog.
 
Okay so I would like to remind everyone I'm still spitballing with all of this. However...

Slyvena said:
This expression is transcendent to most forms of negation. Even amongst the upper echelons and otherworldly, defence from concordant subversion is uncommon and frequently of limited scope.
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Concordance Subversion. This suggests that someones concordance (concordant weight or Fate/Tension lines?) can be subverted I.E. made to be something else or ortherwise turned against them.

What if this is what's part of the Game? After all, Knowing about something like this is a big deal, and it's such a problem that it can even effect high-tier beings. Who are probably the people best equipped to even try and as such also wouldn't be inclined to tell, especially if they knew Lilly had Cleaver and could use it on them.

Edit:
One of the key questions if there's a second Chance is 'What would Zachs 'second chance' be, because that implied he had a first chance'.

This is why I think it's about getting Zach to Murder Lilly, or something - He had his chance when she left, to finally have the favour of his father, to finally learn his craft. But that chance got taken away form him when lilly returned, and now he's back to being the Second Child.

But if Lilly was to be killed... but not that's not possible, he's seen what we can do - Unless, of course, the Child gives him something. Power that could close the gap and allow him to take lilly's life. We already know from Valerie that such entities can do this.

Edit Edit: Of course, It could suddenly turn out to be about Marcus. Now that'd be left field! :V
 
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Something else important - Null Error very specifically put it as a term that Lilly couldn't tell about it.

Whatever is happening would be three magnitudes easier if Lilly could. Because unfair and capricious rule is exactly the game being played.
 
I wonder if using a minor relation to give Zach our anti-everything including Concordance thing would help. Hard to do subtle and unstoppable manipulations if the target is hidden behind a VPN or whatever right?
 
NotteBoy97 said:
I wonder if using a minor relation to give Zach our anti-everything including Concordance thing would help. Hard to do subtle and unstoppable manipulations if the target is hidden behind a VPN or whatever right?
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maybe, but I wouldn't be certain Hybrid Siphon would help even if that is what's happening. Concordance subversion is incredibly hard to protect against for a reason. Still, it's something to keep in mind.
 
The3rdCorinthian said:
Again, this is only if I'm right, and I'm not sure I am.
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Well, if you're wrong but the plan is "provide an anti-everything defense..."

I mean. Uh. I really don't understand how any of this works.

But naively, it seems like an anti-everything defense would be helpful against, uh... everything. Not necessarily sovereign against everything, obviously, but helpful. So even if the problem is something we didn't predict or don't understand... it'd help? The only question is the opportunity cost.
 
The Hybrid Siphon is, as far as we can tell, pretty all-encompassing.

We also don't really understand exactly how it works beyond 'repurposed Maw bits that eat anything registering as 'harmful'', so we don't want to depend too heavily on it. But it does provide at least some passive Concordance defense, and is also the only thing we know of that can erode Valerie's Commands. (Subversion can reword them, and Domain can resist them, but so far only the Siphon can remove them)

It's also out of action until Evie recovers enough, as Evie is the one who actually know how the thing works.
 
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Hmmm, other Evie thoughts...

We've soul-bonded Evie. This likely means that Evie will be pulled into our Dream.
Lilly starts to take on attributes of things that are part of her Dream, when they are beneficial.
What kinds of weird demon abilities might Lilly manage to manifest?
 
Razzocnor said:
Hmmm, other Evie thoughts...

We've soul-bonded Evie. This likely means that Evie will be pulled into our Dream.
Lilly starts to take on attributes of things that are part of her Dream, when they are beneficial.
What kinds of weird demon abilities might Lilly manage to manifest?
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And, for that matter, will Evie change the character of the dream?
 
This talk of the Maw brings fourth an important question, how would Maw being inverted change it? For that matter, how about inverted Deific or Legend?

Slyvena said:
You'd need an inspiration to build it off of. Most likely a Flow Power with any form of outward mental manipulation could likely be used to bud a 'stay chill under extreme duress' Artefact.
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This was stated in regards the type of power needed for an Artefact that would be useful to Zach's situation and what do you know Lilly has a Flow power that could work for building this Artefact.

For another matter, why did Aboleath do battle in the middle of the Watch's camp? Surely fighting it out in Harmuph would have been more to his favor. Admittedly Harmuph could have been to far away but they both can fly and ignore physics for the most part. Did Aboleath want to destroy any resources or support that Lilly could draw on? Was he aware of Not-Jeremy and this was a way to aid them?
 
Imugi said:
This talk of the Maw brings fourth an important question, how would Maw being inverted change it? For that matter, how about inverted Deific or Legend?


This was stated in regards the type of power needed for an Artefact that would be useful to Zach's situation and what do you know Lilly has a Flow power that could work for building this Artefact.

For another matter, why did Aboleath do battle in the middle of the Watch's camp? Surely fighting it out in Harmuph would have been more to his favor. Admittedly Harmuph could have been to far away but they both can fly and ignore physics for the most part. Did Aboleath want to destroy any resources or support that Lilly could draw on? Was he aware of Not-Jeremy and this was a way to aid them?
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The point, I suspect, was attacking Lilly's support base in the first place. It would have probably been victorious either way, but it wanted to hedge for Maximum Suffering in the event that it lost anyway, and it didn't really seem to matter how things shook out either. The Maw is winning by all indications, so Aboleath being dispersed doesn't actually hurt it in the long run since it can just be spun out again down the road.
 
Alectai said:
The point, I suspect, was attacking Lilly's support base in the first place. It would have probably been victorious either way, but it wanted to hedge for Maximum Suffering in the event that it lost anyway, and it didn't really seem to matter how things shook out either. The Maw is winning by all indications, so Aboleath being dispersed doesn't actually hurt it in the long run since it can just be spun out again down the road.
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...If Aboleath is another facet of the Maw (and I'm not entirely sure that he is), just how omniscient is he? Like, I'm willing to believe the Child's got our number, but if Aboleath and the Child are two avatars of the same entity, then:

A) Us double-dosing [Bedrock] and [Tower] wouldn't have been presented as the reason Aboleath was headed in our direction; he would have known exactly who and where we were to begin with.
B) If Aboleath knows Lilly's a Multi-Ethos AND that she has a spirit capable of soul manipulation, then why not tell Valerie? Did Aboleath really think that the standard Command was really all it would take to make us helpless?
 
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Silverking said:
...If Aboleath is another facet of the Maw (and I'm entirely sure that he is), just how omniscient is he? Like, I'm willing to believe the Child's got our number, but if Aboleath and the Child are two avatars of the same entity, then:

A) Us double-dosing [Bedrock] and [Tower] wouldn't have been presented as the reason Aboleath was headed in our direction; he would have known exactly who and where we were to begin with.
B) If Aboleath knows Lilly's a Multi-Ethos AND that she has a spirit capable of soul manipulation, then why not tell Valerie? Did Aboleath really think that the standard Command was really all it would take to make us helpless?
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A) He was coming for Lilly regardless, all that the double-dose did was make him prioritize hitting her immediately, even at risk of Valerie not being a fully molded engine of annihilation yet with clear gaps in her experience and power because she didn't spent time dunking on low level targets first, because there was too much risk of Lilly outscaling her otherwise.

B) He literally struck first, requiring Evie to engage him to avoid just Instantly Murking Everyone. Again, he felt like they had to hit Lilly immediately the instant "Standard Command proved insufficient." He was willing to see if Valerie's seemingly unstoppable Commands were strong enough, but the very instant it crumpled, he deployed. Presumably, he didn't want Valerie asking questions, especially since they had to up their timetable apparently.
 
Alectai said:
A) He was coming for Lilly regardless, all that the double-dose did was make him prioritize hitting her immediately, even at risk of Valerie not being a fully molded engine of annihilation yet with clear gaps in her experience and power because she didn't spent time dunking on low level targets first, because there was too much risk of Lilly outscaling her otherwise.
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I don't think it knew about Lilly specifically: it was just trying to harvest the divine fragments inside of random people to improve its puppet.

It's just that it saw what Evie was doing and then targetted us, probably because it usually needs time to find other targets, while Lilly was just there after being revealed.

I also don't think Aboleth had a direct line of communication with what was happening outside the Melange layer, otherwise it probably would have tried to ally with the dungeon, or even try to force us to choose an ethos from Colossi. And I doubt a possible rivalry between Maw sublets would explain that.

I just think that it and Valerie noticed the city guard camp nearby, and then Aboleth went there to find "munitions" to kill, and not only banish, Evie.
 
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...Had a bit of a weird thought.

1. Lilly has a statue of Micah in her Dreamscape, which she has been able to tether Micah's soul to.
2. We are planning on eventually figuring out how to resurrect Micah, which may involve somehow growing a new body for him.
3. Lilly has a statue of Kaymie in her Dreamscape.

Would we be able to just...pull her soul fully into our Dreamscape and then grow a new body for her, while just leaving her old body where it is? It would get her away from Lord Waters in a way that would lead him to believe that she just died, therefore he wouldn't feel the need to send out a search party or anything. On the other hand, losing his only Essence user may mean that he doubles-down on securing the wondergirl who had defied him before.

Of course, just because the manuever might be possible with the right skills gained during level-ups doesn't mean it's feasible to actually pull off.
 
Silverking said:
Would we be able to just...pull her soul fully into our Dreamscape and then grow a new body for her, while just leaving her old body where it is?
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I'm not sure how much I like the idea of leaving the body where it is. We know via Mindstate!Lilly that there are a lot of ways to get at someone that doesn't directly strike at them but via indirect means such as using her connection to her mother's blood etc. etc.

The body remaining in play could lead to some unusual hijinks that I don't think we're prepared to deal with just yet.
 
Why leave the body?

We may end up experimenting with Kaymie to see if we can just pull her wholesale into the Dream.
 
Razzocnor said:
Why leave the body?

We may end up experimenting with Kaymie to see if we can just pull her wholesale into the Dream.
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...If we could somehow combine the Dreamscape with our Slipstream ability, we might actually be able to pull it off.

Article:
By prying open the right paths, I can step between any two distances instantly. By the time I grow this to its 10th mote of power, I will be able to bring others along with me, jumping to any place I have ever been or to anyone I hold a significant essence-link too. In my more immediate surroundings, while it takes concentration, I can prepare spatial jumps to suddenly lurch me into unexpected locations when trying to evade or out-manouver an adversary.

-> Current capacity requires short wind up period. Able to jump through Essence Links and can transport others along with Lilly when she jumps to a place she has been before.
- Can transport others between links without Lilly going through if link is strong.
- Can leap dimensional distances relative to Lilly or a geographic anchor aswell as pre-preparing dimensional jumps whose exits move corresponding to Lilly's own movements.


Of course, we still need to officially open Kaymie's link in the Dreamscape, but once Lilly is collaborating with her, she may know a way to strengthen the link enough to just pull her through back to Harmuph.
 
Imugi said:
This talk of the Maw brings fourth an important question, how would Maw being inverted change it? For that matter, how about inverted Deific or Legend?
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I don't think Inverted Maw exists practically. Every Ethos is created by a specific Weaver, with Manoth being responsible for Inverted Ethea, but we also know that Colossi/Maw is arrayed against literally every other entity on the other planes of existence, so why should any of them be able to manipulate/have access to the Source that is Colossi itself? And why would Colossi create an Inverted version of its own source? Colossi isn't here to help along whatever plan everyone else got cooking to uplift the Melange Layer, it's here to destroy and devour. If we accept that Maw is some sort of Unreality/Annihilation concept, then an Inversion would be Creation/Firming Reality or something along those lines, which seems like the opposite of what Colossi wants to achieve.
Similarly I would assume that Deific and Legend are beyond the area of play for Manoth until we see otherwise, those sources seem too important to be allowed for Inversion, based solely on their names.
 
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