Green Sun, Black Shadows (CG/Exalted)

First, quest will not be a non-stop action day by day. It's not how it works in "real life". There will be weeks of silence, when nothing of note is happening. And while yes, there is danger of a unexpected, I think, that Lelouch is good at predicting such, and estimating probability.

I don't think you really understand - even when things are happening in the background, Lelouch is still running a rebellion, and later an Empire. This is not something that stops just because it's happening in the background. This means that when the hearthstone's effect is on, every action he takes running his organization suffers a -2 penalty. The entire rebellion suffers for it, and the GM would likely reflect that in the narrative.

It gets worse when something urgent comes up, which it will - don't think the GM won't throw sudden, unexpected situations at us. Even Lelouch couldn't predict everything that came in canon, and this is a setting with Exalted. The unexpected will be big, scary, and fit the description of Glorious <Insert Exalt Type Here> Bullshit.

The stone is great for a character who doesn't have a lot of responsibilities, or is in a safe training period, but a leader character really shouldn't use it.

On flip side, with this stone, skills can be improved in the single night. With good roll, it's TWO skills in a single night. In will allow Lelouch to prepare for event that are happening "tomorrow". If he needs better hacking skills, he can have learn it in time. Needs sailing? Can do. If he needs to improve martials arts, he can learn it in time also.

Two things:
1. In Exalted training has nothing to do with rolls. You spend the XP, and then you spend the required time. You can also improve multiple skills at once if your training method trains them all at once. (like using the Survival Club to train Firearms, Athletics, Dodge, Resistance, and Dexterity at the same time, like we've already done)
2. Hacking skills (Lore speciality) and Sail can be improved pretty much immediately without this stone anyways. Both fall under the Lelouch's favored and caste skills respectively, and can be improved in a time period that is effectively immediate (an hour or two of training, really). This stone would be worthless regarding those skills.
 
Hm....I would like to try my hand in it I suppose. Though it will take a bit to type down and set up their character sheets in anathema.

What hasn't been done....hm
 
Well, this can only be done during the five days of Calibration. And I'm pretty sure summoning a 3rd Circle demon will get a Sid kill squad dispatched to our location.
Which is why you never attempt to Summon a Third Circle, the proper method of Calling them is to exploit their unique circumstances.
As an example; "Amalion occasionally appears in human form when an architect kills himself to escape a commission beyond his capabilities."

But why is the Urge Cecelynian instead of Mardukth?
Because the Urge can come from the Caste Yozi instead of the Favored one.
 
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More like unfortunate idol, but like it. But why is the Urge Cecelynian instead of Mardukth?
Sydonai already got it. The Caste Yozi has to have some kind of influence, after all. And the Urge would work for both of them, really. Building a cult and being in command of it suits most Yozis quite well. I imagine it as laying the groundwork for further efforts.

And yeah, Yelena had a rough time. But now she's large and in-charge!
 
Sydonai already got it. The Caste Yozi has to have some kind of influence, after all. And the Urge would work for both of them, really. Building a cult and being in command of it suits most Yozis quite well. I imagine it as laying the groundwork for further efforts.

And yeah, Yelena had a rough time. But now she's large and in-charge!
Agreed! So, how do you want her to come to Japan for training? Should I have Lelouch gets a Jet and fly there for retrieval?
 
Agreed! So, how do you want her to come to Japan for training? Should I have Lelouch gets a Jet and fly there for retrieval?
Basically
It would be easier for her to go to Malfeas and then travel to Japan from there.

She's already on a roll, having killed the slavers, freed the slaves and looted their stash. She's leading a troupe of 20-ish traumatized and shell-shocked girls with AK-47s into the hills like some modern Moses, her Coadjutor guiding her to the nearest Infernal Gate. That's my initial suggestion, anyways. Nothing binds her to Russia anymore, though she'll probably want to operate in that region after training since it's what she's familiar with.

Alternatively, Lelouch could go via jet or something. He might want to have Milly do the talking though, since the last time a strange man convinced her to go with him, it didn't end well.
 
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She's already on a roll, having killed the slavers, freed the slaves and looted their stash. She's leading a troupe of 20-ish traumatized and shell-shocked girls with AK-47s into the hills like some modern Moses, her Coadjutor guiding her to the nearest Infernal Gate. That's my initial suggestion, anyways. Nothing binds her to Russia anymore, though she'll probably want to operate in that region after training since it's what she's familiar with.
Girl has potential.
Alternatively, Lelouch could go via jet or something. He might want to have Milly do the talking though, since the last time a strange man convinced her to go with him, it didn't end well.
With everything said I think a deviation through Cecelyne is the best way to go.
 
Agreed! So, how do you want her to come to Japan for training? Should I have Lelouch gets a Jet and fly there for retrieval?
With everything said I think a deviation through Cecelyne is the best way to go.

I agree that going through Cecelyne is probably the best option. Lelouch or any of the others actually going to retrieve an Infernal should only be done when circumstances require it - either the Infernal isn't following the order to go to their local cult so they can go to their seniors for orientation and training, or there's something there that's keeping them from leaving/receiving the order.

Nathan could take a plane what with being a Britannian citizen in Britannia's borders, but Cecelyne would still be a good route as it would leave no paper trail.
 
Here's what I've got thus far; need to write up the background, but basic idea is "Britannia fucked up his life, Yozi snapped him up, he eagerly agreed and has now become a saboteur going around doing his best to just completely ruin everything about that empire".

MAde some other changes from first suggestion.

This something that could be workable, @Alexander89 ?

Exaltation: Infernal
Caste: Fiend
Character concept: Saboteur
Anima Banner: Vantablack eastern dragon, hissing and forming pitchblack storms for wings.

Essence: 3

Attributes
Physical: Strength 2, Stamina 2, Dexterity 3
Mental: Perception 4, Intelligence 2, Wits 3
Social: Charisma 2, Manipulation 5, Appearance 4

Virtues
Compassion 1, Conviction 4, Valor 2, Temperance 2

Willpower
7

Backgrounds
Spies 3 (Brittannia, EU, Chinese Federation)
Past Life 1
Unvowen Coadjutor 1
Cult 3 (2 + 1 free dot from Yozi)

Abilities
Caste (Fiend): Bureaucracy 3, Linguistics 3, Ride 0, Sail 1, Socialize 3
Favored: Firearms 3, Lore 2 (hacking +2), Presence 3, Stealth 4 (infiltration +1), Investigation 4
Unfavored: Dodge 3, Awareness 3

Charms
Ebon Dragon:Shadow Spite Curse, Cracked Cell Circumvention, Loom-Snarling Deception, Corrosive Pattern Infliction, Eldritch Secrets Mastery
Adorjan:Sacred Kamilla's Inhalation, Broken Silence Laughter Defense, Wind-Born Stride, Unimpeded Perfection of Exertion, Faster Than Sight, Foam-Dancing Haste

Motivation: Destroy the Britannian spy network currently rooted in the EU
Urge (Adorjani): Destroy the 'Holy' Britannian Empire, rendering all their efforts to ash.
Intimacies
Brittannia (unforgiving loathing), EU (patriotism), his demon (friendly bemusement), his cult (surprised appreciation)
 
Edited in a picture for her. Appearance 4 is nice.

Source is Kriemhild from Valverave the Liberator if anyone is curious.
Age?
I agree that going through Cecelyne is probably the best option. Lelouch or any of the others actually going to retrieve an Infernal should only be done when circumstances require it - either the Infernal isn't following the order to go to their local cult so they can go to their seniors for orientation and training, or there's something there that's keeping them from leaving/receiving the order.

Nathan could take a plane what with being a Britannian citizen in Britannia's borders, but Cecelyne would still be a good route as it would leave no paper trail.
Yeah. Also, she probably wants for the girls she rescued to be taken care of...so they will probably follow her. What with the cult and all.
Here's what I've got thus far; need to write up the background, but basic idea is "Britannia fucked up his life, Yozi snapped him up, he eagerly agreed and has now become a saboteur going around doing his best to just completely ruin everything about that empire".

MAde some other changes from first suggestion.

This something that could be workable, @Alexander89 ?

Exaltation: Infernal
Caste: Fiend
Character concept: Saboteur
Anima Banner: Vantablack eastern dragon, hissing and forming pitchblack storms for wings.

Essence: 3

Attributes
Physical: Strength 2, Stamina 2, Dexterity 3
Mental: Perception 4, Intelligence 2, Wits 3
Social: Charisma 2, Manipulation 5, Appearance 4

Virtues
Compassion 1, Conviction 4, Valor 2, Temperance 2

Willpower
7

Backgrounds
Spies 3 (Brittannia, EU, Chinese Federation)
Past Life 1
Unvowen Coadjutor 1
Cult 3 (2 + 1 free dot from Yozi)

Abilities
Caste (Fiend): Bureaucracy 3, Linguistics 3, Ride 0, Sail 1, Socialize 3
Favored: Firearms 3, Lore 2 (hacking +2), Presence 3, Stealth 4 (infiltration +1), Investigation 4
Unfavored: Dodge 3, Awareness 3

Charms
Ebon Dragon:Shadow Spite Curse, Cracked Cell Circumvention, Loom-Snarling Deception, Corrosive Pattern Infliction, Eldritch Secrets Mastery
Adorjan:Sacred Kamilla's Inhalation, Broken Silence Laughter Defense, Wind-Born Stride, Unimpeded Perfection of Exertion, Faster Than Sight, Foam-Dancing Haste

Motivation: Destroy the Britannian spy network currently rooted in the EU
Urge (Adorjani): Destroy the 'Holy' Britannian Empire, rendering all their efforts to ash.
Intimacies
Brittannia (unforgiving loathing), EU (patriotism), his demon (friendly bemusement), his cult (surprised appreciation)
Seems good. I suppose that, since Essence is 3, your Infernal went around kicking ass and taking names before being called for demonic orientation?
 
Going to sleep now, see you tomorrow. But before that a small bonus since you answered my GSP challenge so eagerly:

If you take this Hearthstone of Ebon Dragon:
Deceiver's Stone (Manse 1)
This half-black, half-white stone allow its bearer to more easily conceal the truth—be it a state secret or even simple truths. This stone permits the bearer to substitute Charisma for Manipulation (and vice versa) for all social attacks. It also works when substituting honest and straightforward social attacks with inherently deceptive ones and vice versa, save when revealing an horrid truth that bring more pain than lies.
You can receive Witness to Darkness, gratis, in the next scene via a special event.
 
Enthusiastic Walk (GSP Murakami Akio by NSMS)
Akio, Infernal Slayer

Murakami Akio whistled happily as he walked down the dark street, hands shoved firmly into his pockets as he made his way towards his latest target: a bar that Britannian soldiers were known to frequent. Something that was actually an unusual choice for him; normally he preferred to attack groups of armed soldiers to send a stronger message, but even he had the common sense not to try that right now. His rather brutal slaughters of soldiers and Britannian-sympathisers throughout the city meant that every patrol he'd seen in the past few days had had Knightmare support. And superpowers or no, he didn't think he was ready to fight one of them and win yet.

Not that he was actually thinking about any of this at the moment, of course; right now his focus was on a far more urgent and pressing topic.

"Bronze, or brass? Maybe iron? Granite?" Akio mused to himself, idly kicking a can that was lying on the street, the clattering providing the perfect complement to the screams emerging from the alley he'd just passed. "Glass would be funny, but it wouldn't last long."

'Wait.' Akio paused midstride, then swiveled on his foot to look back the way he'd came, frowning. Screams?

Before Akio could properly comprehend what he'd just heard, a sobbing Britannian soldier burst out of the alley, running flat out towards him with his head down- and caught completely off guard by the man's sudden appearance, Akio didn't manage to get out of the way before the soldier slammed into him. Most men would have been knocked sprawling by the impact, but Akio was not most men- tall and well muscled, he merely staggered back a step before steadying himself, instinctively reaching out to grab the soldier and keep him from falling as he did.

"An Eleven- what are you- no never mind- she's not human! We need to run, to get help, anything-" The soldier babbled, latching onto Akio's arm and tugging at him desperately as he tried to begin running again. Akio, however, simply dug his heels in and refused to budge, instead regarding the soldier with an expression of mixed confusion and contemplation. After a moment the soldier stopped trying to simply pull him along and turned back to Akio with his mouth open, probably to try and persuade him to start running, but by then Akio had come to a decision.

Unfortunately for the soldier.

"Like mother always said," Akio said cheerfully, completely ignoring the man's panic. Reaching up with one of his hands, he placed it carelessly on the soldier's head and continued, "Waste not, want not."

"Wha-arrrgh!" The soldier barely had time to scream before a sudden rush of pulsing pink light flowed into him, making him briefly glow from within before fading away. And as it dimmed it left not flesh behind, but metal; the entirety of the soldier's flesh had been transmuted into solid iron.

Bending over, Akio grabbed the former-soldier's ankle and hauled him into the air with a faint grunt of effort. Frowning, he gave the statue a few experimental swings, then nodded in satisfaction. "Yep, that'll do!" He said happily, hefting the man up and resting him on his shoulder before he stepped round the corner and into the alleyway.

Into a scene of absolute carnage.

The only survivors were three soldiers near the entrance to alley, and none of them looked in any fit state to be doing anything. One was clutching his severed legs and mechanically trying to press them back onto the stumps they'd been sliced from, one was slumped against the wall, hugging his gun and shivering and sobbing, and the last was standing frozen with his weapon lying useless at his feet. And further down, past them?

The floor of the alley was littered with mutilated corpses and severed body parts, and the walls painted with elegant sprays of blood. One, two, four, six, ten, whatever that number after nineteen is… Akio quickly gave up trying to guess how many. Every one of them was a Britannian solder, slain by some sort of massive edged weapon- and Akio had more than a sneaking suspicion exactly what that weapon was and who had used it.

At the far end of the alley, past the carnage, a young woman wreathed in black flames was crouched over the body of a dying solider, her mouth near his neck- and resting on the ground next to her were a pair of massively oversized, almost cleaver-like swords. Apparently hearing Akio's footsteps despite the distance, she looked up from the neck of the soldier to reveal a bleeding black ring on her forehead, and a bloodstained mouth filled… with… fangs…?

Akio blinked at the sight, then immediately blinked again to convince himself he wasn't seeing things. A woman, drinking blood, with fangs? That could only mean one thing. "Vampire!" He yelled, his club slipping from his hand and hitting the ground with a loud clang as he pointed an accusing finger at the woman.

The woman, in response, merely blinked in a rather nonplussed manner, before shaking her head. "Stupid boy," She began, a mocking smirk touching her lips as she rose from the corpse and retrieved her swords in a single gracefully smooth movement. "Can't you even recognise a fellow Exalt when you see o-?"

"Don't try and confuse me with your words, woman! I know how to deal with vampires!" Akio yelled, cutting her off mid-sentence. Inwardly, however, he was feeling slightly worried; he'd never fought a vampire before, and he didn't have any weapons that would work.

'Unless...' Akio's gaze slid over to the surviving soldiers, a truly ingenious plan beginning to blossom in his brain. Would it work? He wasn't certain, but he decided it was worth trying. And so without any further consideration he quickly stepped over to still standing soldier, grabbed him by the neck, and before the man even had a chance to beg for mercy engulfed him in sulfurous yellow flames.

The sound of screaming once again filled the alley as fire consumed the soldier's flesh, before he abruptly and ominously fell silent. A moment later the flames began to die down and flicker out, leaving behind them a wooden statue in the shape of a Britannian solider, his face locked in an expression of hideous agony. Not finished, however, Akio frowned pensively at it before pulsating blades of warped space lashed out and sent woodchips flying. Then, his work complete, Akio turned back to the confused-looking Abyssal and brandished his new weapon: a wooden statue of a human, with the top of its head and the ends of its arms sharped into pointed stakes.

For several seconds there was silence as the Abyssal simply stared at him incredulously, before stating in a flat tone, "...you're serious. You're actually serious." Sighing, she shook her head again, before burying her face in her hand and muttering. "Of all the Exalts I could run into, of course I get the complete moron..."

"Don't bother trying to confuse me, you undead monster thing!" Akio interrupted her again, scowling. Bringing his new weapon up and pointing it forward like a spear, he paused for a moment to try and think of a suitable battle-cry, before giving up and just defaulting to his usual fallback, "The talking ends here! DEATH TO BRITANNIA!"

And with that he charged the extremely confused Abyssal, muscles swelling, and screaming a wordless cry of rage at the top of his lungs.

Name: Murakami Akio

Age: 26

Titles: That One Lunatic Who Goes Around Beating Up Soldiers Using Other Soldiers

Motivation: To wipe out the Britannian empire

Urge: Unite the resistance groups of every Area into a single force (Pyrean)

Caste: Slayer

Patron Yozi: She Who Lives In Her Name

Anima Banner: A grossly muscled man draped in a cape of green flames - except when you look closer, you see that the man's body is made up of countless miniature obsidian demons moving in perfect unison

Attributes: Strength 5, Dexterity 2, Stamina 4; Charisma 4, Manipulation 1, Appearance 4; Perception 4, Intelligence 1, Wits 1

Virtues: Compassion 1, Conviction 3, Temperance 1, Valor 4

Abilities: Athletics 4, Bureaucracy 2 (Management 1), Dodge 1, Lore 1, Martial Arts 5 (Wielding Humanoids 3), Performance 4, Presence 4, Socialise 1, Thrown 4 (Throwing Humanoids 1)

Backgrounds: Cult (Yozi) 1, Resources (2), Unwoven Coadjutor (N/A)

Essence: 3

Willpower: 10

Personality:
Akio is, by and large, a rather good natured man. Jovial, rarely getting angry, and possessing an infectious attitude of cheer, he's the sort of person that people find themselves drawn to and getting along with whether want to or not. Helping this along is his general honest nature- he doesn't see the point in deception or misleading people, and thus never bothers to conceal his intentions or feelings. Combined with his drive and stubborn refusal to give up on his goals, and in many ways he seems almost a classic hero archetype. Or at least, so it appears at first glance.

For those able to look past these surface traits, a much darker side to him is revealed.

Despite all signs to the contrary, Akio doesn't care about other people at all; he doesn't dislike them or hate them, he's simply never had it explained to him or realised of his own accord why he should care about them. Perhaps more unnervingly, his general affability comes from the same source; he simply sees no reason not to be helpful and act in a pleasant manner, rather than genuinely being that way. If given a reason, however, he would think nothing of torturing his best 'friend' to death whilst maintaining his pleasant demeanour the whole time, and in fact would likely be confused if you tried to tell him what he was doing was wrong.

First SwLiHN Excellency
Second SwLiHN Excellency
SwLiHN Mythos Exultant
SwLiHN Inevitability Technique
Factual Determination Analysis
Essence Dissecting Stare
Mind-Hand Manipulation
Principle-Invoking Onslaught
First Malfeas Excellency
Second Malfeas Excellency
Malfeas Mythos Exultant
Malfeas Inevitability Technique
By Pain Reforged
Scar-Writ Saga Shield (X2)
Nightmare Fugue Vigilance
By Agony Empowered
Countless Cities Clotting
Retribution Will Follow
Raging Behemoth Charge
Infernal Monster Form
World Breaker Grip
 
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Added the Hearthstones of Ebon Dragon. You may be interested in the third one...:p

So, looking these over...

The third one is Deceiver's Stone... to be clear, these options work only with keeping secrets, right? The first bit indicates that, but then the next stuff goes on to say you can switch stuff for all social attacks. But yeah, even in that case, it's an interesting option. Being honest as a way to keep secrets would be funny.

Lelouch would probably be interested in a Gem of Unholy Perfection if Nunnally could use it, but alas she couldn't attune to the manse so it wouldn't work. Good thing Kaguya will be helping out in time.

He also clearly needs that Gemstone of Seduction. Effectively Appearance 6, fascinating to look at, and causes obsession through direct eye contact? Yeah, that should make his harem big enough, because he's not yet suffered enough.

The Stone of Recognition could be very good with Loom-Snarling Deception. That pesky thing about people checking your ID? No need. They remember you from last time, except there is no last time.

The Freedom Stone would be interesting. Suzaku would have a harder time capturing us in any case.

Style-Copying Stone would be hilarious as well. Spin-kick Suzaku at his own level of skill.

Seems good. I suppose that, since Essence is 3, your Infernal went around kicking ass and taking names before being called for demonic orientation?

It's possible to be Essence 3 at Exaltation, provided the character generation points are spent on it. That said, pre-Lelouch there shouldn't be any other Infernals left (all of them got killed due to being stupid, or were 'dealt' with) because otherwise they'd be here now.

Going to sleep now, see you tomorrow. But before that a small bonus since you answered my GSP challenge so eagerly:

If you take this Hearthstone of Ebon Dragon:

You can receive Witness to Darkness, gratis, in the next scene via a special event.

Interesting. 8XP saved. Something to consider.


Regarding all the characters being generated, just remember not all of them need to appear at once. Not every worthy mortal is gonna fail at once.


And we would want to gimp our character why?

We're using the Earthscorpion version of the Charm, which doesn't gimp Charisma. It makes it so being honest is harder, but doesn't make you less likeable.

And we do want it at some point, because there are some really good Charms that come after it.
 
We're using the Earthscorpion version of the Charm, which doesn't gimp Charisma. It makes it so being honest is harder, but doesn't make you less likeable.
actualy I fell that this is a misconception, bot versions give demerits to social atacks , the original for charisma social attacks, the rewrite for honest and direct social attacks, so could you clarify to me when a charisma social attack isn't honest and direct ?
 
Seems good. I suppose that, since Essence is 3, your Infernal went around kicking ass and taking names before being called for demonic orientation?
Yeah, that was my thoughts.
The idea would be that he'd been exalted a little earlier than the slayer, and since there was no super-asskicker around, he'd been having spy adventures doing his damndest to ruin Britannian efforts.

We're using the EarthScorpion rewrite of it, IIRC. It's less burdensome.
We are?
That changes things...
 
Early 20s, maybe? Not a teenager, but not too far beyond it. 22? Highschool education, some college, mostly in social-studies and things like ballet and public speaking. Lining herself up to be a socialite and marry into wealth. A little bit of a "proper princess" attitude, with the idea that the world moved along nicely for those who knew how to work it.

Just so happened that her one misstep was a horrible one.

Yeah. Also, she probably wants for the girls she rescued to be taken care of...so they will probably follow her. What with the cult and all.
She's torn between sending them away for real help, or keeping them nearby so she can protect them. She's also noticed that having people who believe in her make her stronger, so she's disinclined to throw away an advantage. She's subtly redefining herself as their protector, (both regular human psychology and influence from Mardukth charms) because it's proof that she was able to overcome her own confinement. She uses that as a way to fight the niggling fact that she broke under captivity, which she is deeply ashamed of and will never, ever tell anyone. Mahakas does his best to keep her from ruminating on it, reminding her of what she's accomplished, to keep her focus on what she's done instead of whats been done to her. She's got a good relationship with her Coadjutor.

She would be very interested in learning how to help her people by herself, or acquiring the resources to do so.

She's very much a fit for Mardukth, because he rules his subjects, but he is also defined by them. She is going to be the leader, but she'll change to be the leader her people need.
 
Ok, I think I'll write up a character myself either tonight or tomorrow. Idea: Scourge chosen by Metagaos. The basic character concept will be a starving Chinese person, and there may be cannibalism involved. :p

actualy I fell that this is a misconception, bot versions give demerits to social atacks , the original for charisma social attacks, the rewrite for honest and direct social attacks, so could you clarify to me when a charisma social attack isn't honest and direct ?

Charisma is about your likability and social skills. Having only one dot of Charisma means you're ill mannered or there's something about you that just makes you unlikable, even if you're a completely honest and forthright person. Having high Charisma means you've got extreme social grace and a magnetic personality that just makes people want to follow you or be near you. A deceptive use of Charisma would be to use all your charm and poise to get a group of people you hate to like you so it's easier to screw them over later. It may also be considered Charisma if you give an impassioned speech with emotional arguments, even if you don't feel those emotions are good reasons to do what you are advocating.

Manipulation is about convincing people to do what you want them to do. This does include lying to them, but could also be completely straightforward and honest. Threatening to break someone's legs if they don't do what you want is honest if you mean it, and counts as Manipulation. An honest, straightforward argument giving rational reasons to do what you want someone to do is honest Manipulation.
 
Charisma is about your likability and social skills. Having only one dot of Charisma means you're ill mannered or there's something about you that just makes you unlikable, even if you're a completely honest and forthright person. Having high Charisma means you've got extreme social grace and a magnetic personality that just makes people want to follow you or be near you. A deceptive use of Charisma would be to use all your charm and poise to get a group of people you hate to like you so it's easier to screw them over later. It may also be considered Charisma if you give an impassioned speech with emotional arguments, even if you don't feel those emotions are good reasons to do what you are advocating.

Manipulation is about convincing people to do what you want them to do. This does include lying to them, but could also be completely straightforward and honest. Threatening to break someone's legs if they don't do what you want is honest if you mean it, and counts as Manipulation. An honest, straightforward argument giving rational reasons to do what you want someone to do is honest Manipulation.

Okay, I reread this twice and I think we have a serious problem because be your definition Charisma and Manipulation are mechanicaly the same thing, I tought Charisma was when you did a social attack naturaly while staying true to yourself and Manipulation was when you carefuly crafted something that would make someone react in a certain way, but after your explanation I honestly don't know the diference anymore
 
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