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Green Sun, Black Shadows (CG/Exalted)

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Something I've noticed is that most of our GSPs have anti-Britannia Urges. Is that because they're just the largest target at the moment, or does the "Holy" Brittanian Empire actually have Heavenly support? Could be why the Yozis want it gone.
 
Peanuckle said:
Something I've noticed is that most of our GSPs have anti-Britannia Urges. Is that because they're just the largest target at the moment, or does the "Holy" Brittanian Empire actually have Heavenly support? Could be why the Yozis want it gone.
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I chose the Urge I did because I figured that it would be an acceptable Urge, as it was similar to one of the sample Urges in the Elloge charmset.
 
Zaratustra said:
Okay, I reread this twice and I think we have a serious problem because be your definition Charisma and Manipulation are mechanicaly the same thing, I tought Charisma was when you did a social attack naturaly while staying true to yourself and Manipulation was when you carefuly crafted something that would make someone react in a certain way, but after your explanation I honestly don't know the diference anymore
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No, this is how it's defined in the core rulebook.

CHARISMA
Charisma measures how innately likeable someone is. It reflects an air of confidence and social grace when dealing with people. People like those with a high Charisma, even if they do not always know why.
Trait Effects: Someone with Charisma 1 is either ill-mannered or subtly unlikable. Someone with Charisma 3 is likeable and makes friends with little effort. Someone with Charisma 5 has that rare spark that draws everyone to his cause. Even the wealthy and the powerful will go out of their way to become his friend.

MANIPULATION
Manipulation measures your character's innate capacity to purposefully coerce, manipulate, trick and bully others. Manipulation covers everything from leading others to tricking them, from being sly to being domineering.
Trait Effects: Someone with Manipulation 1 is either ill-spoken or exceedingly direct and open. Someone with Manipulation 3 has a clever tongue and can convince most people to trust her. Someone with Manipulation 5 might well talk her way into the private pavilions of the Celestial Incarnae.
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A good example in canon Code Geass of deceptive Charisma is Schneizel. He very rarely actually lies to anyone, but he's not really honest about his intentions either. People just gravitate towards doing what he wants. He tells you he wants world peace, that all the conflict makes him sad, and he really does mean it. You believe him, too, because he's just so charismatic. But is he being honest? Fuck no. He knows that if he tells you his real plans you'll be horrified. But since you don't know that you're going to follow him. Eventually he might tell you the full truth of his plans, but by that point it's either too late to stop him or you've been completely sucked in and you're completely loyal to him.
 
Enjou said:
No, this is how it's defined in the core rulebook.

A good example in canon Code Geass of deceptive Charisma is Schneizel. He very rarely actually lies to anyone, but he's not really honest about his intentions either. People just gravitate towards doing what he wants. He tells you he wants world peace, that all the conflict makes him sad, and he really does mean it. You believe him, too, because he's just so charismatic. But is he being honest? Fuck no. He knows that if he tells you his real plans you'll be horrified. But since you don't know that you're going to follow him. Eventually he might tell you the full truth of his plans, but by that point it's either too late to stop him or you've been completely sucked in and you're completely loyal to him.
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You know by the definition any intentional use of "deceptibe Charisma" would cont as manipulation since "Manipulation measures your character's innate capacity to purposefully coerce, manipulate, trick and bully others. Manipulation covers everything from leading others to tricking them, from being sly to being domineering." but seriously how do you diferentiate a use of charisma from and use of manipulation ? because every example souds like "using charisma to manipulate"
 
Wasn't there an example in the General Exalted Thread about the Charisma/Manipulation thing?

I think the gist of it was that saying "It's a pleasure to meet you, your highness." while thinking 'Fuck you, arrogant, inbred Brit' is a Charisma+Socialize roll even though you're intentionally lying your ass off.

That probably extends to another example, Speeches. Charles' Clovis Funeral Speech in canon is Charisma+Performance, even though he's lying his ass off about being a hardcore Social Darwinist.
 
Kiriel said:
Wasn't there an example in the General Exalted Thread about the Charisma/Manipulation thing?

I think the gist of it was that saying "It's a pleasure to meet you, your highness." while thinking 'Fuck you, arrogant, inbred Brit' is a Charisma+Socialize roll even though you're intentionally lying your ass off.

That probably extends to another example, Speeches. Charles' Clovis Funeral Speech in canon is Charisma+Performance, even though he's lying his ass off about being a hardcore Social Darwinist.
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but wouldn't the fact that in bot situations instead of using your natural social advantage(AKA Charisma) they are lying their ass off and carefuly chossing the words that will get the desired reaction be textbook manipulation (" Manipulation covers everything from leading others to tricking them, from being sly to being domineering."). my problem is that if you could use charisma to feed people your carefuly constructed lies and controled maneirisms and manipulation to lead people trough a fervorous spech about a cause and using arguments you truly belive, would there be any actual diference between the two of then beyond some very flimsy fluffy ?
 
Zaratustra said:
but wouldn't the fact that in bot situations instead of using your natural social advantage(AKA Charisma) they are lying their ass off and carefuly chossing the words that will get the desired reaction be textbook manipulation (" Manipulation covers everything from leading others to tricking them, from being sly to being domineering."). my problem is that if you could use charisma to feed people your carefuly constructed lies and controled maneirisms and manipulation to lead people trough a fervorous spech about a cause and using arguments you truly belive, would there be any actual diference between the two of then beyond some very flimsy fluffy ?
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To be honest? The fact of the matter is that Charisma and Manipulation is all in how you stunt it and justify it. There is no real difference between the two, and this is a thing which has annoyed many people in the past, and will annoy many people in the future. EarthScorpion, the one who wrote the variation of Witness to Darkness we're using folded the two stats into one Persuasion stat for his Infernal game. The only reason it's still in the game is because I think it's Legacy code from the oWoD (Don't quote me on that).
 
Walker of the Yellow Path said:
To be honest? The fact of the matter is that Charisma and Manipulation is all in how you stunt it and justify it. There is no real difference between the two, and this is a thing which has annoyed many people in the past, and will annoy many people in the future. EarthScorpion, the one who wrote the variation of Witness to Darkness we're using folded the two stats into one Persuasion stat for his Infernal game. The only reason it's still in the game is because I think it's Legacy code from the oWoD (Don't quote me on that).
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Personaly I think things would work as long as someone ascepts the interpretation suported by the original WTD charm(at least every charm that uses charisma that I saw involves expresing your personal raw truth in a way or another ), but besides that isn't using a rewrite designed to work with a certain mechanic change whitout said mechanic change just inviting a headache ?
 
Zaratustra said:
Personaly I think things would work as long as someone ascepts the interpretation suported by the original WTD charm(at least every charm that uses charisma that I saw involves expresing your personal raw truth in a way or another ), but besides that isn't using a rewrite designed to work with a certain mechanic change whitout said mechanic change just inviting a headache ?
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Not really. The rewrite was made before the mechanic change, IIRC. But the Mechanic change was definitely made with problems like WtD in mind. All the rewrite does is let you be dishonest with Charisma, which doesn't fuck over Charisma builds as much as the original forced you into a High Manipulation route.
 
Walker of the Yellow Path said:
Not really. The rewrite was made before the mechanic change, IIRC. But the Mechanic change was definitely made with problems like WtD in mind. All the rewrite does is let you be dishonest with Charisma, which doesn't fuck over Charisma builds as much as the original forced you into a High Manipulation route.
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Maybe is just me, but how is it that the rewrite avoids messing with Charisma builds ? pretty much every Charisma Charm I saw had a subtext that you were direct expresing your true intention/fellings in some way, which the rewrite would penalize anyway
 
Zaratustra said:
Maybe is just me, but how is it that the rewrite avoids messing with Charisma builds ? pretty much every Charisma Charm I saw had a subtext that you were direct expresing your true intention/fellings in some way, which the rewrite would penalize anyway
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Well, the original failed to realize that Charisma is used for more than just speaking. It's also the Dancing Attribute and the Music Attribute, (Honestly it's the Performance Attribute really, though Manip + Performance can be used for public speaking.)

With the old WtD, Infernal Performers have their builds incredibly gimped, especially Malfean Performers due to all the dancing involved with Malfean Performance (Beauty Without Malice is awesome.) With the new one, those aren't even touched, since Charisma isn't directly affected.
 
Walker of the Yellow Path said:
Well, the original failed to realize that Charisma is used for more than just speaking. It's also the Dancing Attribute and the Music Attribute, (Honestly it's the Performance Attribute really, though Manip + Performance can be used for public speaking.)

With the old WtD, Infernal Performers have their builds incredibly gimped, especially Malfean Performers due to all the dancing involved with Malfean Performance (Beauty Without Malice is awesome.) With the new one, those aren't even touched, since Charisma isn't directly affected.
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I think then that it was the guy who made the rewrite who forgot that comunication isn't just talking,there are many kinds of language, there language of the flowers, signals ,body language, Music itself is a language, the way you express your emotions matter,specialy in a conceptual setting like Exalted , if you think that you aren't expressing yourself just becasue you aren't speaking then your imagination seens to be somewhat limited. Personaly I can easily envision the beautiful dancing girl with her instrument who manipulates a poor sucker into folowing her into the dark aley with promises of something very diferent from what she has planed whitout ever utering a single word
 
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Peanuckle said:
Something I've noticed is that most of our GSPs have anti-Britannia Urges. Is that because they're just the largest target at the moment, or does the "Holy" Brittanian Empire actually have Heavenly support? Could be why the Yozis want it gone.
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Honestly, I think people just don't want to make the characters they create into antagonists for us the way a pro-Brittania Urge would.
 
Well, Ligier did say that destroying, or at least crippling, Britannia would be a high-ish priority of the efforts, because Creation ruled by a single nation would be harder to overcome. Perhaps the Yozis realized that prior to this meeting, and all agreed to, at the absolute least, not aid Brittania?
 
Or I suppose that maybe Britannia offends at least some of the Yozis.

For example, Elloge could be offended by how Britannia commits atrocities as an evil empire would, and yet somehow has the gall to claim that they're a noble kingdom. Such narrative inconsistency cannot be allowed!

Or maybe Oramus wants to make Britannia lesser somehow as part of a plan to escape his prison, and decided the best way to do that was by having his servant make an empire greater and more unique than Britannia.

Or maybe Malfeas decided he hated Charles' beard or something.

Who even knows, the Yozis are all varying degrees of bugnuts crazy anyway.
 
Infernals tend to be antagonistic with the current power structures, for the simple reason that they want to get that power. Pro-brittania Infernals wouldn't make much sense, especially when you consider than most of the really important Brittanian people are probably
Dragon-blooded anyway.

Anti CN and anti EU Infernals, however, work perfectly too.
 
Broken25 said:
Infernals tend to be antagonistic with the current power structures, for the simple reason that they want to get that power. Pro-brittania Infernals wouldn't make much sense, especially when you consider than most of the really important Brittanian people are probably
Dragon-blooded anyway.

Anti CN and anti EU Infernals, however, work perfectly too.
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Pro-Britannia can work in a "I want to personally rule Britannia and then take over everyone else" kind of way rather than a "I want India to declare independence from the CN" kind of way. Lack of DB Exaltation into Solaroid is a stereotypical enough trope, after all.
 
I'm currently planning a character who is Anti-Sidereal, though that's currently being held up in development due to the fact that the initial depiction of Isodoros I came across gave me a vastly different interpretation of his general aspect and charmset than the other variations I've come across.


Also, on closer reading, does anyone else think the whole Ululating Nightmare Wings Charmset is, as a whole, kinda....pointless? Nightmare Wings is obviously a gateway charm, with downsides and no real benefits (unless you really hate the people living around you), but there are a fair few charms that branch off from it. The trouble is, none of those are actually really that worthwhile, when you think about it.
-Shadow Scars is entirely negative, unless you have Pyreflame as well and consider literally driving those around you mad with the voices of the Neverborn to be useful.
-Pyreflame itself is quite tolerable, giving a nice ability in exchange for a big disadvantage, but I don't know that it's worth a charm tree nearly as long as Ornamental Shintai in order to get it.
-Dancer in Infinite Silence is a nice charm, but is heavily situational, to the point that many Exalted campaigns won't see much (if any) use for it.
-Waking Dreamer Paradox is cool fluff-wise, but unless we can use it to speed up training time for various activities, I don't see any sort of actual mechanical benefit from having more (theoretical) hours in the day. Maybe it's cool if we can combine it with other charms like the Blossoms of the Tiger Empire charm, but a charm that's only useful when combined with a charm in a completely different charmset is silly.
-Touch of the Eldest is actually pretty cool, and in certain types of intrigue-based games could be really useful, but the fact that it has a range limited by Ululating Nightmare Wings means that for the most part you could duplicate the effects simply by chatting with your target in a locked room during the day. If you could use it to cancel out the effects of Nightmare Wings (in a sense of 'you dream of me rather than random nightmares') that'd make it an interesting addition to the charmset, but I don't think the charm as written supports that interpretation.
-Sublectic Beast Invocation and Crimson King Shintai are both really cool and both include Touch of the Eldest as prerequisites. As far as I can tell, the Nightmare Wings tree seems mostly to exist in order to make these harder to get, but that still makes for 2 charms that are pretty much entirely negative, two with no mechanical benefit and 2 with highly varying usefulness. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other charm trees with such a big slump in usefullness. Am I just missing some obvious benefits to some of these charms?
 
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Zaratustra said:
Okay, I reread this twice and I think we have a serious problem because be your definition Charisma and Manipulation are mechanicaly the same thing, I tought Charisma was when you did a social attack naturaly while staying true to yourself and Manipulation was when you carefuly crafted something that would make someone react in a certain way, but after your explanation I honestly don't know the diference anymore
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Why Zaratustra? Why is it that every time Witness to Darkness come up you make this exact same argument?! I thought we resolved it through PM!

Sorry but this has to stop. I can't continue the quest until this argument is resolved once and for all.

{====}

Which Version of the Charm "Witness to Darkness" you want to use in this quest?​

[] Original-ish Version
The Ebon Dragon sees through darkness lesser than himself. The Infernal can ignore all penalties and sensory impairment associated with darkness in any form, treating pitch black as though illumined by clear noon. Witness to Darkness grants no additional capability to see through other forms of visual impairment such as fog and smoke. This attunement to darkness has a price, as direct sunlight in Creation imposes a -1 internal penalty to all non-reflexive actions. Said penalty can be ignored for a scene with the expenditure of one Willpower.

Should the Infernal suffer a Crippling effect that blinds her, she may perfectly ignore the effect as a defense to see clearly. However, for as long as this benefit is used, Primordial Essence leaks from the eye (or socket), making this Charm Obvious. The player defines how the leakage manifests.

Finally, the Infernal is unimpressed with the murk of others' guile and adds her Essence rating to her MDVs against Manipulation-based attacks and as bonus successes to recognize or pierce another's deceptions. Her attunement to lies makes it harder to be honest, however, imposing an internal penalty of her Essence rating to any Charisma-based social attack.
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The social penalty of the last part can be bypassed by possessing this Hearthstone:
Deceiver's Stone (Manse 1)
This half-black, half-white stone allow its bearer to more easily conceal the truth—be it a state secret or even simple truths. This stone permits the bearer to substitute Charisma for Manipulation (and vice versa) for all social attacks.
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[] EarthScorpion's Version
The Ebon Dragon sees through darkness lesser than himself. The Infernal can ignore all penalties and sensory impairment associated with darkness in any form, treating pitch black as though illumined by clear noon. Witness to Darkness grants no additional capability to see through other forms of visual impairment such as fog and smoke. This attunement to darkness has a price, as direct sunlight in Creation imposes a -1 internal penalty to all non-reflexive actions. Said penalty can be ignored for a scene with the expenditure of one Willpower.

Should the Infernal suffer a Crippling effect that blinds her, she may perfectly ignore the effect as a defense to see clearly. However, for as long as this benefit is used, Primordial Essence leaks from the eye (or socket), making this Charm Obvious. The player defines how the leakage manifests.

Finally, the Infernal is unimpressed with the murk of others' guile, and adds her Essence rating to her MDVs against inherently deceptive social attacks and as bonus successes to recognize or pierce another's deceptions. Her attunement to lies makes it harder to be honest, however, imposing a -(Essence) internal penalty to all attempts to be honest and straightforward, save when truth brings more pain than lies.
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The final part was re-made because Charisma can be used not only when talking with other people but also to make music, dancing, ecc. Sadly it sparked a furious debate on the lines of "why isn't Charisma always about truth" and similar :(

[] Alexander's Version (Hoping to find a middle ground):
The Ebon Dragon sees through darkness lesser than himself. The Infernal can ignore all penalties and sensory impairment associated with darkness in any form, treating pitch black as though illumined by clear noon. Witness to Darkness grants no additional capability to see through other forms of visual impairment such as fog and smoke. This attunement to darkness has a price, as direct sunlight in Creation imposes a -1 internal penalty to all non-reflexive actions. Said penalty can be ignored for a scene with the expenditure of one Willpower.

Should the Infernal suffer a Crippling effect that blinds her, she may perfectly ignore the effect as a defense to see clearly. However, for as long as this benefit is used, Primordial Essence leaks from the eye (or socket), making this Charm Obvious. The player defines how the leakage manifests.

Finally, the Infernal is unimpressed with the murk of others' guile. She adds her Essence rating to her MDVs against Manipulation-based attacks that aim to convince the Infernal of something the attacker believes is false; she adds her Essence as bonus successes to recognize or pierce another's deceptions. Her attunement to lies makes it harder to be honest, however, imposing a -(Essence) internal penalty to any Charisma-based social attack in which the Infernal tries to persuade the target of something she believes is true.
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[] If you have another, better solution please tell me.

{====}​

I will not update the quest until this issue is resolved. This also means that, after votes are called and a victor is decided, I don't want to see the argument about "Charisma=Truth? and Manipulation=Lie?" brought up ever again. I will assume that anyone who vote knows this and is willing to accept majority's decision, whichever it is. Clear?
 
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