Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

She needs at least a year of growth at average XP gain rates to be capable of holding her own reliably
I mean she was able to bully a large part of the white court well Molly was busy fighting the outsider you seem to have incredibly high standards for how strong someone has to be to 'hold their own'.
 
[X] You are considering your options (may be taken as an invitation to sweeten the pot)

I'm thinking this is actually a good offer. Sure Odin is manipulating us, but that's par for the course and his goal isn't actually hurting our interests.

More critically, we have multiple ways to mitigate his ability to sideline us as a junior partner and keep us out of Chicago's politics that he doesn't know about, which reduces the true cost/risk of the deal.

We aren't Dresden; there's no reason to fort up in Chicago forever, especially when we ultimately want to expand out into the world.

No need to seem too eager though, and we might as well shop around for options a bit while we're at it.

What does that even mean in context?
If he pushed out all the major players that means the only ones left are locals without the strength to oppose him.

If we want to say gain influence over the city council/mayor of Chicago then we probably would need to go through supernatural opposition to do so because someone is already playing that game.

Here we could likely just take it.

Leyline confluences are also more common in the DF than dragon nests are in WoD. There are likely a few around the area, though probably not anything astounding by most standards.

For our purposes just existing and only having a local guardian we can recruit or kill would be critical to our crafting. We risk destroying them with drain if we roll poorly and it would probably suck for our favorite train dragon even if we avoid that, so a couple of sites we're willing to wreck have a lot of value to us.

If/when we get into buying up property and playing games with that we can effect more significant local control with less money because the city is smaller. That translates to all sorts of influence that can be used as a base for growth into more contentious areas.

In terms of recruitment, we're talking about a well connected college town. The mundane advantages are obvious, but the constant flow of students and their families means whoever has the place can pick through a constant stream of new people for talents and be the one to introduce them to the supernatural.

Then there's position; it's an important place in striking range of another major city. A fortress in the middle of nowhere isn't as valuable as one overlooking a greater territory.

So the summary is; vulnerable supernatural sites to appropriate, mortal businesses to acquire, mortal politics to subvert, a self refreshing recruitment pool, and an in to leverage all of this if we want to take on Boston.

There's also probably some gains to be had in gatekeeping the university for supernaturals. Wealthy factions that actually hide in mortal society rather than around it, such as the white court, probably send their younglings to prestigious schools on a regular basis.

If a hell queen is running the place now then it's a bad idea to step into her turf without saying hello and coming to an understanding.

I'm not going to assert that it's the most valuable patch of territory around, but there is profit in it.
 
If we want to say gain influence over the city council/mayor of Chicago then we probably would need to go through supernatural opposition to do so because someone is already playing that game.
It kind of depends on us actually being willing to use Infernal methods of persuasion. NWS we can dig up black mail on everyone, but is the thread actually willing to do that to take power? Or other Infernal mortal bully charms.

@uju32 : Mostly asking you because you tend to be the strongest voice against any sort of proactive power grabbing.
 
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Catching up on replies and commentary in a bit.
But just in case:
The problem isn't the university, it's the power vacuum collapsing.
This is the sort of situation where nasty actors like the fomor move in and either dig so deep you can never get rid of them or make everyone extra miserable until someone notices and stomps them out before taking the territory for themselves.
Boston is canonically one of the four cities where Dresden has subordinate Wardens as of Small Favor, with the other three being Atlanta, New York and Dallas.
Small Favor chapter 22 said:
"You know your way around the station," Michael commented.
"Trains are faster than buses and safer than planes," I said. "I took a plane to Portland once, and the pilot lost his radio and computer and so on. Had to land without instruments or communications. We were lucky it was a clear day."
"Statistically, it's still the safest-" he began.
"Not for wizards it isn't," I told him seriously. "I've had flights that went smoothly. A couple of them just had little problems. But after that trip to Portland…" I shook my head. "There were kids on that plane. I'm going to live a long time. I can take a little longer to get there. Hey, Joe," I said to a silver-haired janitor, walking by with a wheeled cart of cleaning supplies.
"Harry," Joe said, nodding with a small smile as he passed by.
"I've been here a lot lately," I said to Michael. "Traveling to support the Paranet, mostly. Plus Warden stuff." I rolled my eyes. "I didn't want the job, but I'll be damned if I'll do it half-assed."
Michael looked back at the janitor thoughtfully for a moment, and then at me. "What's that like?"
"Wardening?" I asked. I shrugged. "I've got four other Wardens who are, I guess, under my command." I made air quotes around the word. "In Atlanta, Dallas, New York, and Boston. But I mostly just stay out of their way and let them do their jobs, give them help when they need it. They're kids. Grew up hard in the war, though that didn't give them brains enough to keep from looking up to me."
Mouse suddenly stopped in his tracks.
Me too. I didn't rubberneck around. Instead I focused on the dog.
Maybe there isnt one there now, though. I doubt it, but its possible.
 
Catching up on replies and commentary in a bit.
But just in case:

Boston is canonically one of the four cities where Dresden has subordinate Wardens as of Small Favor, with the other three being Atlanta, New York and Dallas.

Maybe there isnt one there now, though. I doubt it, but its possible.

There isn't, I would say that in the canon timeline some kind of threat to the university is what caused the White Council to get a warden to move in, the place is very important not so much magically as politically, while not being as protected as say DC or NYC by people like the Library of Congress. As to whether that means they will be moving someone into the city now you do not know, the butterfly has already spread its wings.
 
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Things Odin doesn't know about:
1) Rendered Villain Dispersal. It's not OCP, high level people can travel quickly, even mortals can cross atlantic in less than a day. So he can actually expect us to commute
2) Splintered Gale Incarnation - that's a near OCP. No one in Dresden Files has demonstrated the ability to be in the several places at once. Mab can't do this. Certain Indian deities might be able to, if we take the avatar concept as real. But it's still a near OCP. It changes the equation strongly, allowing us to completely maintain presence in Chicago, if not combat presence (that can be handled with RVD)
3) Our Kingdom. That's a complete OCP and a game changer in terms of power and worth. The fact that our Kingdom is not located in the NeverNever and is a material realm is not something he'd expect. Not to mention everything else
4) We almost certainly can learn / cobble together an Ancient Sorcery spell that functions equivalently to Right of Opened Bridge from W20 and allows for teleportation between claimed Dragon Nests.

Now, what does he want out of this?
1) An area secured for a nominally allied force. I have no issues with that
2) Us removed from Chicago. I am guessing Chicago is too important, too dangerous, and has too many people in it to afford us in it. Remember, we are Outside Fate. Seers can't predict our future. Depending on how many balls Odin has up in the air, our simple presence is likely to destroy a lot of his operations. it definitely messes with his plans to set Marcone up as a freeholding lord, and there's absolutely a plan to do this. He probably wants us far from Demonreach and possibly far from Harry too.

Overall, he seems to really, really want us on his side, and gone from Chicago at the same time.
Or put that clone in Chicago and swap across Boston.
That's probably the best move, if we are to break Boston over our knee and establish ourselves as the God Queen there.
2)High school graduates in May/June, and the freshman year of college starts in August/September.
Thats seven months before Molly graduates high school, and nine or ten months before university starts.
There's time before she has to make a binding decision.
Actually that's interesting. If there's power vacuum there right now, Odin is implicitely offering to hold the fort there for this period so no one else moves in. Because power vacuums fill fast in Dresdenverse (see fomor after Red Court was destroyed, and in the quest Red Court itself has demonstrated the ability to move quickly). Or is he expecting us to drop school and move there right now? We might want to get something explicit out of him if we are to consider this. Like "yes, I'll prevent anyone from moving in for the next nine months".

In terms of characters, we almost certainly can get Isabela with us, but probably not Lydia, allowing her and Daniel (if they are still an item by that time) more of their own adventures. I am vehemently against breaking the circle up. We might also be able to get Olivia with us. Rosie is also a firm maybe, if she can handle the load.
This is one of the reasons why I was reluctant to make binding moves like officially joining Cauldron, because you cant accept shit like this cavalierly. But having joined them, we kinda have a responsibility TO them which is hard to fulfill if we spend most of the year a thousand miles away in Boston.

And thats not counting Rosie's wellbeing, who we also have to take into account. Or Alec and Izzy.
Or Last Station and Porter.
Or Isabella. Or Murphy.
That's a question of building them up. If we are expanding Order of Cauldron, it actually makes sense to go to Harvard, and probably to send their members to other universities too, if possible, in order to spread the order's influence. The question is building them up enough that they won't crumble without our direct constant presence. We'd still be available as a nuclear response, though.

Jade Dogs are going to need a goal / task soon, I feel, beyond "live better", if they are to develop. We probably want to consider formally and strongly taking over Underground. Expand Last station into a central node of a subway system, buff Porter up maybe.

Also, in regards to Porter and Last Station - we don't actually have a commitment to him. He never swore loyalty to us, in fact, after we finish restoring the station, it's not a given we won't be kicked out. We are almost sure we won't be, but technically right now we are just fulfilling a promise, with no formal expectation that we will be allowed to stay after we finish renovations.
Even mundane mortal college applicants take time to research their school and talk to their family about their choices.
Indeed. At the very least we know that Harvard is not the most magically active university in USA. That's Brown University. Which makes me want to look into it.
Almost as an afterthought you move on to big the list of US universities Clippy had complied for you and ask: "Which of the organizations in this list are the most mired in the supernatural?"

This time the answer is just a blazing green line under one of the names: Brown University Wait a second, Providence Rhode Island? Isn't that...? It only takes a few more clicks to confirm, it is the university Lovecraft would have liked to attend, if he weren't sickly and scared of... almost everything really. It is easier to make a list of the things Lovecraft was not afraid of. Fun.
She needs at least a year of growth at average XP gain rates to be capable of holding her own reliably, and even then she'd not be in Molly's tier of sheer naked threat.
That's an interesting estimation. A year of her current power growth is roughly 70 xp. Lydia with access to a Dragon Nest can have an army of wood soldiers (zombies) ready to go basically now. Buffing her willpower to 10 takes 35 points, and makes her excellency as good, if not better, than ours. 18 more XP gives her omni-excellency (i.e. lets her buy excellencies for everything). Put Call the Restless on top of that, and she gets to summon armies of ghosts from across the state. And there are still XP left over. It's not an optimal build, but my point is that a year later Lydia is more than capable of steamrolling a lot of things. She can do that even now. If we give her more meatshields, she'll be even better.

Point is, I believe you are underestimating her.
 
I mean she was able to bully a large part of the white court well Molly was busy fighting the outsider you seem to have incredibly high standards for how strong someone has to be to 'hold their own'.
Most of the White Court present were on the sidelines while Molly ganked the main Skavis party and Lara cleaned up the mooks. She was principally on perimeter security, and had the assurance that Molly was literally yards away.
And the Whites are not even the biggest physical threats among vampires.

===
Yes, I do.

Dresden often gets by on luck and incredibly close calls, but even then people tangling with him know he can and has called on other wizards as backup. Getting a Warden strike squad to roll into town is a pretty significant threat for most people to consider when they are thinking of giving Dresden shit.

Lydia has no White Council backing her, no Faerie Court, her pool of mojo does not regenerate very fast, and she lacks basic competencies in shit like Occult. When she's injured, she has no faction watching her back while she heals.
She is rather powerful in her area of specialty, but its not as broad as she needs to be an independent power at her age.

She needs to invest outside her charmset pretty broadly.

On her own against an entire faction, she gets rolled or has to seek help; maybe go to Winter. And she knows this.
There's a reason her father told her to keep Molly close.
It kind of depends on us actually being willing to use Infernal methods of persuasion. NWS we can dig up black mail on everyone, but is the thread actually willing to do that to take power? Or other Infernal mortal bully charms.
@uju32 : Mostly asking you because you tend to be the strongest voice against any sort of proactive power grabbing.
As far as I can tell, we dont really need political power at the moment. What for?
Certainly nothing more than can be wielded with an information-gathering capacity, lots of money, a good law firm and contacts with the local newspapers.
 
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As far as I can tell, we dont really need political power at the moment. What for?
Certainly nothing more than can be wielded with an information-gathering capacity, lots of money, a good law firm and contacts with the local newspapers.
Sort of avoiding the question, but what I take from your answer is that a power vacuum in Harvard is no reason for us to go there because even if we did you don't think that we would gain anything by filling it.
Only if provided with means to reliably regen several WP per day. Without WP regen, it is somewhat weaker.
She doesn't have to spend willpower to activate her exalancy. She spends essence and the dice bonus she gains is based on her temporary willpower.
 
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It kind of depends on us actually being willing to use Infernal methods of persuasion. NWS we can dig up black mail on everyone, but is the thread actually willing to do that to take power? Or other Infernals mortal bully charms.

@uju32 : Mostly asking you because you tend to be the strongest voice against any sort of proactive power grabbing.
I don't see why we can't do this in multiple variably pleasant ways.

There will inevitably be some shady characters around, and while blackmail is usually a bad long term plan it's not totally unacceptable in those cases. There's also bribery; we're going to be getting some significant money soon and that means something.

Hell, perfectly legal investing is itself power.

I went to a relatively small university, and one family in the area owned most of the bars that the students used. Which equated to being a pretty sizable portion of the tax base.

They were notorious for bullying the local government on all sorts of things related to their businesses, simply because they could be more trouble than it was ever worth to fight them on stuff.

Buy out the local catering/wholesale companies (preferably ones already supplying the school, but enough to muscle those guys out of you have to do it the hard way), towing companies patrolling their parking lots, major landlords catering to the students, and all the nearest gas stations to the school.

See how quickly the trustees start taking your calls.
Molly is also very good at social stuff and problem solving in general. Getting into the favor trading space by convincing people to help each other wouldn't be hard for her.

Money again helps. How many little start up pet projects do you think pop up and then wither on the vine around MIT? It doesn't matter if they're good ideas or not as long as cutting a check to keep them afloat means whatever professor or school official is playing with it owes us one.

Exalted socials on the PR for a local election in addition to a sizable donation would be enough to acquire a local councilmen, in addition to the above stuff.

The whole city is host to offices from major tech companies too, so getting those connections means we can side load into national and global industry too if we want.


Boston is canonically one of the four cities where Dresden has subordinate Wardens as of Small Favor, with the other three being Atlanta, New York and Dallas.
If a warlock and necromantic Valkyrie were both screwing around in the relative open there then I think they're either shit at their job or that something changed for the quest.
 
Sort of avoiding the question, but what I take from your answer is that a power vacuum in Harvard is no reason for us to go there because even if we did you don't think that we would gain anything by filling it.
My understanding is that none of our goals require that we seek political power. Or overt influence over political officers of the govt.
Just being Ms Moneybags with influence over some local businesses or local bank branches will often get you accelerated attention if you need it. Especially if you or your lawyers donate to local political campaign funds.

The Harvard question is quite different, and has multiple factors in play.
I'll get around to commenting on the update properly.
 
I don't see why we can't do this in multiple variably pleasant ways.

There will inevitably be some shady characters around, and while blackmail is usually a bad long term plan it's not totally unacceptable in those cases. There's also bribery; we're going to be getting some significant money soon and that means something.

Hell, perfectly legal investing is itself power.

I went to a relatively small university, and one family in the area owned most of the bars that the students used. Which equated to being a pretty sizable portion of the tax base.

They were notorious for bullying the local government on all sorts of things related to their businesses, simply because they could be more trouble than it was ever worth to fight them on stuff.

Buy out the local catering/wholesale companies (preferably ones already supplying the school, but enough to muscle those guys out of you have to do it the hard way), towing companies patrolling their parking lots, major landlords catering to the students, and all the nearest gas stations to the school.

See how quickly the trustees start taking your calls.
Molly is also very good at social stuff and problem solving in general. Getting into the favor trading space by convincing people to help each other wouldn't be hard for her.

Money again helps. How many little start up pet projects do you think pop up and then wither on the vine around MIT? It doesn't matter if they're good ideas or not as long as cutting a check to keep them afloat means whatever professor or school official is playing with it owes us one.

Exalted socials on the PR for a local election in addition to a sizable donation would be enough to acquire a local councilmen, in addition to the above stuff.

The whole city is host to offices from major tech companies too, so getting those connections means we can side load into national and global industry too if we want.
We don't have politics, law, finance, expression or the like. All our social skills* work on a personal level not the sort of large scale influence that you are talking about. Which means us taking over would mean convincing people already in positions of power to become our minions rather then trying board spectrum influence games.

*Besides leadership and maybe intimation, but that isn't what you are talking about.
 
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I bet we could easily use VEE to recruit some prime quality minions at Harvard.
 
I bet we could easily use VEE to recruit some prime quality minions at Harvard.
Most certainly, but our next charm is our kingdom and the next charm after that has a lot of competition.

Also if we just want to recruit Inner darkness unchained (12 Xp) is likely to be cheaper and better. VEE (20 xp) is a one time transaction well Inner Darkness Unchained is a long term relationship.

Of course if we take False Springs Beckon (•••) (9 xp) we could make Steven Harkens and other sick professors minions with a handshake.
 
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My understanding is that none of our goals require that we seek political power. Or overt influence over political officers of the govt.
Well, I would very much like to keep Chicago out of Marcone's hands, if nothing else, and create a sort of change that allows for supernatural crimes to be punished in something approaching modern understanding of corrective justice, rather that "execute them all, and eat their souls" brand of justice we are operating under here. That requires political power.

Restoring / remaking / improving Underground also probably requires at least some supernatural political power once we get past a certain point, as does Order of Cauldron, when it transitions to something like Paranet.
Huh. Apparently, I forgot how it works. Nevermind, then.
Beyond that, there's
Essence-Stoking Spirit (3 pt. Root Element)
This Element can only be part of an Adornment.
The Splendor stokes the fires of the Exalt's Essence whenever she affirms her innermost self.
When she regains Willpower from fulfilling her Nature, she also refills her Essence pool.
Splendor power, which we could construct a power generator for Lydia. Couple it with
Soul Snare (3 pt. Root Element)
The Splendor captures souls. It may hold a number of souls equal to its rating. Captured soul of
potent supernatural beings may later be fashioned into Prodigies or used in Splendor-crafting.
Lesser souls might be bartered to beings interested in them, or used as display pieces.
To use Soul Snare as an Adornment, the Splendor must also have Form of Imminent Violence.
The soul of anyone slain by the Splendor is drawn into it.
As a Fascination, Soul Snare either indiscriminately absorbs the soul of anyone who dies in its
vicinity, or may be designed to exercise discretion and only capture certain departing souls. If
combined with the Form of Dust and Ash, anyone who dies while interacting with the Splendor
whose soul is not trapped by it is guaranteed to linger in the Underworld as a wraith. Coupled
with Form of Dust and Ash and a location-type Form such as Form of the Hearth, this fate
befalls anyone who dies in the Splendor's area of effect.
And Lydia essentially gets her own Murder is Meat as far as essence regeneration goes. Better even, because souls can get stored for later. Murder someone with the Splendor, their soul gets trapped. Lydia passes the soul, fulfilling her nature and restoring WP and Essence both. Hell, she's ruthless and godly enough to play angel of mercy in retirement homes and hospice care facilities. She almost certainly is able to feel when the person is about to pass on, and persuasive enough (and rich enough) to get them to let her murder them painlessly. If she regains her father's kingdom she could even promise them a good afterlife.

With exalted craft it's very easy to get Lydia essentially endless WP and Essence as long as she puts in some preparatory work.
 
Yes, I do.

Dresden often gets by on luck and incredibly close calls, but even then people tangling with him know he can and has called on other wizards as backup. Getting a Warden strike squad to roll into town is a pretty significant threat for most people to consider when they are thinking of giving Dresden shit.

Lydia has no White Council backing her, no Faerie Court, her pool of mojo does not regenerate very fast, and she lacks basic competencies in shit like Occult. When she's injured, she has no faction watching her back while she heals.
She is rather powerful in her area of specialty, but its not as broad as she needs to be an independent power at her age.

She needs to invest outside her charmset pretty broadly.

On her own against an entire faction, she gets rolled or has to seek help; maybe go to Winter. And she knows this.
There's a reason her father told her to keep Molly close.
If anything kills Lydia we are going to take revenge that still applies if we are in the next state another country or even on another planet and basically everything has to realize that.

Also Lydia is an Exalted she heals super fast there isn't any injury she can get that puts her down for a whole week and her home has fairly good wards.
 
[X] You are considering your options (may be taken as an invitation to sweeten the pot)
-[X][Stunt] So you have a bunch of plans in Chicago and my presence is putting them all in jeopardy because I am outside fate.
or
-[X][stunt] Why would I care about a power vacuum right now considering that I don't go to collage for months. If the power vacuum still exists in a few months then it indicates that the area isn't worth much there are hundreds of power vacuums around the world for a similar reason.
 
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[X] You are considering your options (may be taken as an invitation to sweeten the pot)
Don't care about any possible bribes, just think that now isn't the time for this decision.
 
That's a question of building them up. If we are expanding Order of Cauldron, it actually makes sense to go to Harvard, and probably to send their members to other universities too, if possible, in order to spread the order's influence. The question is building them up enough that they won't crumble without our direct constant presence. We'd still be available as a nuclear response, though.

Jade Dogs are going to need a goal / task soon, I feel, beyond "live better", if they are to develop. We probably want to consider formally and strongly taking over Underground. Expand Last station into a central node of a subway system, buff Porter up maybe
I think these are two problems that solve each other, and are in fact one of the ways we can improve what will be the paranet past canon.

We should spend the time and resources to do for the Jade Dogs what we did for Odin's guys. Well, swap the tanks out for concealed armor and good weapons, but the same idea.

Then we set up the Jade Dogs as a dedicated security service for the Ordo. We can't be everywhere at once anyway even if we are in the city. An organization with our rep behind it and the muscle to drive off minor idiots is an effective way to fill our obligations, get our minions experience, and help socialize aspects of the community that are typically at odds with each other.

In terms of actual function, we set up a rotating central line managed by cyber devils, with cyber devil phones for each working group. They coordinate coverage; setting up wellness checks, escorts when someone is feeling unsafe, rides around town when they're not doing something else or they think it might become unsafe, retaliatory violence if someone makes an attempt despite our precautions, that sort of thing.

As we buy up property we can renovate parts of it specifically to facilitate using them as on site security too.

We keep in regular contact and show up if it looks like it's getting too hairy.


Even if we don't go to Harvard we should do this, so that we can actually provide coverage and do stuff outside of the city for more than a few days at a stretch.
There's a reason her father told her to keep Molly close.
This is fear mongering. With our travel and communications abilities the difference in delay between being down river and being in town is negligible.

If she's going to get suddenly jumped we're no more capable of responding while Molly is in her room than we are in while she's in her hypothetical dorm.

If she sees the threat coming and talks to us about it then we can work something out.

As long as we keep in regular contact and stay involved in each other's projects the status quo should be the same.
 
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