Fate/Clusterfuck (Fate/Stay Night)

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Dmol8 said:
Hope I explained this well enough and I welcome criticism because I am most definitively not a Fate otaku.
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Yeah, uh... none of that tracks. Its an established fact that Servants respond to the Grails call because they have a wish. Actual grail summoning mechanics are established as just a supercharged form of familiar magic - the classes come from needing to have some sort of limiter on the Heroic Spirits so that the Grail System can even manage them.

Their wishes have no bearing on them being summoned beyond meaning they're willing. We know this because of the one of thr most notable non-standard classes: Ruler.

Ruler's are specifically Heroic Spirits who DO NOT desire the grail for themselves IE no wish. The grail still summons them just fine.
 
Oh sweet mordred. Why do you give shirou such top tier romance options. You've made it so tempting for me to pivot from the ss medea.

Alternatively with artoria here can we play family counsellor and fix their relationship? With us and rin using command seals to hold them back we could get them to talk it out like rational human beings. I hope this is an option I want them to be a happy family so badly.
 
Erien said:
Most servants a ton more chill than Mordred, she's the betrayer!
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In terms of child soldier homunculi knights rejected by their incorrectly Idealized, failure of a father/leige lord and murdered in an incredibly painful manner by said father and leige lord, who possibly never made it to double digit birthdays, mordred is pretty chill.

Also, Mordred is more the Rebel than the Betrayer. Arturia Exiled mordred after the morgan's child revelation, which means Mordred was no longer Arturia's knight, removing the applicability of Betrayal to categorize the uprising against Arturia's rule.

Edit: I'll add in that Lancelot, who was never exiled and by exile stripped of his membership in the round table, was responsible for slaying Gared, his unarmed brother knight in cold blood to save Guinevere, and is thus far more fitting of the title "the Betrayer" as well as "Murderer of the Righteous"
Erien said:
Ah well, in any case.

Mordred! Mordred is fun.

Think Shirou can handle her?
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Definitely fun. Ever wondered what if Artoria had been angrier about shirou stopping her with a command seal in a manner which left her open to a death blow from any opponent with slightly more pure skill than archer emiya? Like, if that had happened with rider, saber would have a spike through her throat.

Mordred is going to be so much less reasonable about that. Shirou is so so lucky he has an age of gods level magic user to save his dangly bits after mordred pastes them if he makes the mistake of pulling a command seal on her in the same situation.
 
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Just came to a concerning realization.

So between Cu and Mordred, we can conclude that we have at least seen this war's Berserker, right?

We can also resonably conclude that most of the canon FSN servents will be in this, though obviously not necessarily in their canon classes.

Therefore, my conclusion is that we will most likey have to deal with non-Berserk Heracles at some point.

For those that don't know how bad of news that is, remember how much of a force of nature Berserker!Heracles was in canon FSN and how much it was a pain to take him down? Yeah, that was Heracles in his worst class. Any of his other classes (which, by the way, include everything execpt Caster), and whatever small decrease in raw power he has is more than made up for with access to every skill, tool and trick he used to complete the Twelve Labors.
 
IMHO, the main issue with Mordred is that she adamantly refuses to be treated as a servant. So long as you treat her as a partner and a person, she will most likely hold your back in life and death, but lashes out hard at any perceived shackles.
 
b-wolf95 said:
For those that don't know how bad of news that is, remember how much of a force of nature Berserker!Heracles was in canon FSN and how much it was a pain to take him down? Yeah, that was Heracles in his worst class. Any of his other classes (which, by the way, include everything execpt Caster), and whatever small decrease in raw power he has is more than made up for with access to every skill, tool and trick he used to complete the Twelve Labors.
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Indeed. Beserker Heracles is Heracles locked into Hera induced madness and the aftermath of murdering his own family, before the twelve labors, even if that legend is strong enough to still manifest as a noble phantasm in this form.

Given the nature of Heracles legends, and the various Noble phantasm worthy items and feats encompassed in them, Heracles most powerful normal class, is Rider, which, given the possibility of more than a single servant per class, is a possibility. Gil could be genuinely out preformed by Heracles noble phantasm, for while he has every one available to Heracles, Heracles can likely use every one of them with thrice the Capability.
 
Randino Treviani said:
Indeed. Beserker Heracles is Heracles locked into Hera induced madness and the aftermath of murdering his own family, before the twelve labors, even if that legend is strong enough to still manifest as a noble phantasm in this form.

Given the nature of Heracles legends, and the various Noble phantasm worthy items and feats encompassed in them, Heracles most powerful normal class, is Rider, which, given the possibility of more than a single servant per class, is a possibility. Gil could be genuinely out preformed by Heracles noble phantasm, for while he has every one available to Heracles, Heracles can likely use every one of them with thrice the Capability.
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Wasn't Archer the most powerful class for Heracles? Is the one with a description in the Type Moon wiki, and It shows a very broken Heroico Spirits compared to most from any Holy Grail War.
 
F.I.M.M.98 said:
Wasn't Archer the most powerful class for Heracles? Is the one with a description in the Type Moon wiki, and It shows a very broken Heroico Spirits compared to most from any Holy Grail War.
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Archer is very strong, but it's not like rider has ever been shown, and with the overall higher number of noble phantasm a rider Heracles would have, including Pegasus(certainly stronger than medusa's version) the Nemian Lion Cape, as well as several others I don't want to spend all day listing, a rider Heracles would also be overall more versatile, better at close to my mid range combat, and probably faster, than an archer class.
 
Glernaj said:
I uhh. What? Not really? Basically none of this checks out with what I've seen in the F/SN VN proper, all of NA F/GO, or what I can remember of F/HA. Where are you pulling all of this from?
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Kara no Kyokai, Fate/EXTRA, F/SN Sasaki Kojirou is one of the Wraith Servants which is why he is summoned by Medea as she figures out the recursion trick to get a Servant of her own and bypass her status as a Caster to be a Master at the same time, Zouken Matou is himself a powerful Wraith at the point of F/SN but he doesn't qualify for the Assassin Vessel to his own satisfaction (High Presence Concealment and low everything else because he never trained himself to be good as a Servant and also never trusted another member of his family to be his Master or the caretaker of the Matou Magecraft), The Heaven Feel Fate Stay Night Movies (the giant mortar and pestle are animated in the third one), Jack the Ripper Assassin profile, I think there was something in the Unlimited Blade Works anime and I think I'm pulling stuff from Fate/complete material III.

Dragontrapper said:
Yeah, uh... none of that tracks. Its an established fact that Servants respond to the Grails call because they have a wish. Actual grail summoning mechanics are established as just a supercharged form of familiar magic - the classes come from needing to have some sort of limiter on the Heroic Spirits so that the Grail System can even manage them.

Their wishes have no bearing on them being summoned beyond meaning they're willing. We know this because of the one of thr most notable non-standard classes: Ruler.

Ruler's are specifically Heroic Spirits who DO NOT desire the grail for themselves IE no wish. The grail still summons them just fine.
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The summoning was always about a wish with the Einzbern providing the alchemy that created the Greater Grail, the Tohsaka provided the land and the Vessels for the Servants and the Makiri provided the stabilizers to make sure the ritual didn't just blow up and the Command Spells to have a certainty of control over the Servants. This was for the First Holy Grail War which wasn't called that and happened in 1810.

The Second Holy Grail War was sometime in the 1860s and other than the name for the Ritual, the modification of the Servant's Vessels into something that was more limited by the Class system and the introduction of the Church as an arbiter, because the war between the Church and the Mage's Association that forced the Grail summoning to be done in Japan was done at that point, it didn't amount to much more than a murder spree.

In the Third Holy Grail War in 1939 the Eizberns did a cheating by creating their own Servant Vessel instead of using the 7 Standard ones to insure that the ritual would reach the Third Magic. In the F/SN timeline they created the Avenger Vessel and fucked up the ritual itself while in the Fate/Apocrypha they created the Ruler Vessel and almost unintentionally succeeded.

Anyways the Ruler Class is proof that there is a tether as it summons Servants that have no wish yet still have a desire to participate in the Living World as arbiters and protectors of it. It's nigh-impossible to complete a Ruler's tether as one would have to satisfy their internal need for helping people and/or the world.

Erien said:
Ah well, in any case.

Mordred! Mordred is fun.

Think Shirou can handle her?
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Erien said:
Mordred nearly kills her master in the first five seconds of them meeting.
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Oh boy. Depends. Which Class was she (he? I'm sorry both turn up in the fandom and it's been a while since I've seen/read Mordred in anything) been summoned into?

As far as I can tell Mordred isn't the usual Saber class so the options are Saber Alter, Berserker, Avenger or Beast (what with Mordred's far as I can tell/remember villainy being of the sort that would qualify her (him?) for a Beast Vessel).

Considering this segment:

Erien said:
Hatred.

It was… a good emotion, it kept you driven. It was all you understood these days. Hatred led to bloodshed, bloodshed led to death. Death… death led to everything you ever wanted, it was your goal. Your sole, driving purpose. For there were no others. There was no greater meaning in this life or any others, no heroes, no kings, no family.

There was only death, betrayal, and madness.

If you weren't fighting, what else was there? A pointless, shunned existence? A shadow, meant to perform their duty and little else?

No.

No you wouldn't accept that.

You would kill.

You would maim.

You would slaughter.

There is no meaning, not anymore. It is just mindless savagery, and they would all die. The innocent, the guilty, the loyal, the traitors, the strong, the weak. They would…

They would…

Die… by your hand.

Yes.

That's right.

Your hand…

But… who the fuck even were you, anyway?
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Avenger or Beast would be my guess because you know Berserkers are still directed in their Madness and not this indiscriminate. So Shirou is in for either a perpetually hungry Taiga, only Mordred is hungry for murder instead of food, or an early Dark Sakura without the friendship/love Sakura has for him.

Either way Shirou is now suffering even more.
 
Dmol8 said:
Oh boy. Depends. Which Class was she (he? I'm sorry both turn up in the fandom and it's been a while since I've seen/read Mordred in anything) been summoned into?

As far as I can tell Mordred isn't the usual Saber class so the options are Saber Alter, Berserker, Avenger or Beast (what with Mordred's far as I can tell/remember villainy being of the sort that would qualify her (him?) for a Beast Vessel).

Considering this segment:
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Last I checked, the class in which Mordred has popped up in the primary work she's part of is a plain ordinary Saber.
 
DestinyPlayer said:
Last I checked, the class in which Mordred has popped up in the primary work she's part of is a plain ordinary Saber.
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Yup and she(he?) doesn't look like that here. Mordred look like she's(he'd?) come directly from the end of the Battle of Camlann when Artoria stabbed her(him?) to death.

Edit: Added back the full gender confusion about Mordred on my part. No point in not Edit 2: showing it.

Edit 2: Does Mordred even have Artoria's appetite for the verb chowing it to apply?
 
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Honestly, Mordred is freaking awesome, and I won't mind not adding her as a potential love interest. (Neither would I mind if we do.) She's good fun, and has a tragic past, and is a complex being. And I can't wait for the clusterfuck that's going to happen once Erien develops her in this story.

Good chapter, looking forward to more!
 
Dragontrapper said:
Depends on if he can get the blonde to calm down long enough to eat something. :V
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Just throw a cat at her and she'll calm down.

Maybe Taiga in a pinch.

Erien said:
Mordred nearly kills her master in the first five seconds of them meeting.
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Sisigo also used shards of the Round Table as the catalyst to summon her, so she wasn't in a great mood after seeing those.

b-wolf95 said:
Just came to a concerning realization.

So between Cu and Mordred, we can conclude that we have at least seen this war's Berserker, right?

We can also resonably conclude that most of the canon FSN servents will be in this, though obviously not necessarily in their canon classes.

Therefore, my conclusion is that we will most likey have to deal with non-Berserk Heracles at some point.

For those that don't know how bad of news that is, remember how much of a force of nature Berserker!Heracles was in canon FSN and how much it was a pain to take him down? Yeah, that was Heracles in his worst class. Any of his other classes (which, by the way, include everything execpt Caster), and whatever small decrease in raw power he has is more than made up for with access to every skill, tool and trick he used to complete the Twelve Labors.
Click to expand...
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Randino Treviani said:
Indeed. Beserker Heracles is Heracles locked into Hera induced madness and the aftermath of murdering his own family, before the twelve labors, even if that legend is strong enough to still manifest as a noble phantasm in this form.

Given the nature of Heracles legends, and the various Noble phantasm worthy items and feats encompassed in them, Heracles most powerful normal class, is Rider, which, given the possibility of more than a single servant per class, is a possibility. Gil could be genuinely out preformed by Heracles noble phantasm, for while he has every one available to Heracles, Heracles can likely use every one of them with thrice the Capability.
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Remember True Archer from Fate/Strange Fake? That is Archer Heracles with any kindness and creativity stripped away.

He doesn't have the extra lives from Godhand like his Berserker incarnation, but he still has the indestructibility thanks to the hide of the Nemean Lion. His Noble Phantasm gives him all the weapons and gear he acquired from his Labors.
 
Dmol8 said:
Yup and she(he?) doesn't look like that here. Mordred look like she's(he'd?) come directly from the end of the Battle of Camlann when Artoria stabbed her(him?) to death.

Edit: Added back the full gender confusion about Mordred on my part. No point in not Edit 2: showing it.

Edit 2: Does Mordred even have Artoria's appetite for the verb chowing it to apply?
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Mordred was developed for apocrypha originally, and was going to be a fem boy(which makes sense, since with her being Morgan's attempt at the male inherited British throne to eventually challenge Artoria's rein and Mordred being a homunculus of Artoria to a degree) before they decided that having Astolfo made it redundant. They switch to tomboy instead, but Mordred Identifies as Male and outright threatens Kairi's life over the distinction, and you can't trust FGO as far as you could throw King Protea or Tiamat, so Male.
 
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