This is an interesting perspective. Characterization both of Rin's shocked realization of what it actually means to walk the life of a Magus, and her struggle to process and accept the changes Saber has undergone, are brilliantly handled. Bravo.
 
Baeber is truly gone, not even recognizable as your average Salter. She Is giving me PHH Morgan vibes (being Sisters and all) and that Is just Bad.

Shirou Will Stop Rin, and ideally without killing her...but if pushed, he Will do the deed

PS: wait. Where Is BB?
 
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Getting Rin's perspective like this is neat! She's doing really badly but I don't think things are irretrievable. Right now she's alone and miserable with no one she can talk to, trying to force herself to walk down the path of a heartless magus and struggling to accept the reality that entails. If left alone she will absolutely find a way to justify everything to herself, steel her resolve, and fight on until she becomes a monster but that's not the only way this can end. We have maybe two cards for talking her down
  1. Rin is enormously proud, cannot allow herself to show weakness, and views the world in terms of debts. When she loves someone she binds them to her by forcing them into her debt and conversely she hates being in the debt of others and therefore bound. Right now her pride as a magus is forcing her to ignore her conscience and make herself miserable but if we can give her an opportunity to stop that allows her to retain that pride and looks like the best path towards winning then she'll take it. This cannot be pitying her, showing her mercy, forcing her to stop at gunpoint, etc since all of those would place her in our debt and damage her pride - it has to be putting her in a situation where she can frame it as a rational step towards winning
  2. Rin loves her sister and longs to reconcile with her. As the only family she has left and the source of all of her greatest regrets Sakura is perhaps the one thing Rin values above victory and she might be convinced to give up for her sake. Unfortunately Shirou has no idea about this right now and won't know unless Sakura tells him (which would also be a good thing from the perspective of getting Shirou to realize that crushing Rin simply isn't an option if he cares about Sakura - he can't consider her family and then kill her actual sister)
The ideal solution would find a way to play both cards - we maximize our chances of success by offering Rin a mutually beneficial opportunity to stop and the chance to reconcile with her sister at the same time

(Of course if worst comes to worst part of me is rooting for Rin to go all the way in the other direction. Pre-emptively murder and betray Kirei before he can murder and betray her, personally kill half the cast, get inches away from victory, become the final boss, and then die tragically regretting everything. She has it in her to be a really great villain)
 
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"She prefers to be in bed at nine, however, for her health it is best if she is tucked in by seven and no later. However, if she complains about it, do not attempt to dissuade her from whatever choice she makes regarding a proper bedtime."

"Be-"

"Her preferred tea is Liu An, though she can accept Spring Longjing if necessary. She prefers to drink it with fresh biscuits prepa-"

"I came here to talk to you, not to ask about Illya." You interject.
No, this is actually good advice, please keep at it. Can we get your phone number in case something comes up?

This may be just Leysritt being Leysritt, but the idea that Illya should relocate closer to us, or vice versa, was already in my head. So this is going to be actionable information.
"I think you forgot about the laundry."

"I was attempting to, yes."
...so you are not a fan of us inviting ourselves over to the castle on a more permanent basis, I take it. Shame.

[x] [We ask my servants about the leylines]

No opinion on Rin's situation. Or rather, no change in the opinion. The decision was made when she turned on her classmate because that was the Magus thing to do. Even if there was a misunderstanding and Saber&Mordred made things complicated, this is still XXI century; we have a phone. Everything else stems from it, and by now she is in a boat with Kirei, has sabotaged her Servant's sanity for power, and is being gradually persuaded out of her humanity, of which she has less than what she started with. Getting her out of this swamp alive is a possibility, but less of a concern than keeping alive everyone who is already helpful, and possibly those who are innocent. If it weren't for Sakura, I'd already write her off.

The problem is that we are expected to do most of the legwork to 'save' her -- quotation marks because she clearly won't see it that way -- and there's just no incentive whatsoever. If she wanted out, we could have stepped in if only to have one less enemy, but she walks this path willingly. If Shirou cared about her in the same abstract sense he does about everyone... but that well is drying up in favor of 'everyone in your immediate vicinity', which I consider a big improvement, and either way it got a lot more abstract after Saber murdered a woman, and Tohsaka signed on it. So unless Sakura steps out and does something, even if it's something stupid like trying to kill her sister to spare Shirou the guilt, I can't see and/or justify the character giving a damn.
 
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The problem is that we are expected to do most of the legwork to 'save' her -- quotation marks because she clearly won't see it that way -- and there's just no incentive whatsoever. If she wanted out, we could have stepped in if only to have one less enemy, but she walks this path willingly. If Shirou cared about her in the same abstract sense he does about everyone... but that well is drying up in favor of 'everyone you care for', which I consider a big improvement, and either way it got a lot more abstract after Saber murdered a woman, and Tohsaka signed on it. So unless Sakura steps out and does something, even if it's something stupid like trying to kill her sister to spare Shirou the guilt, I can't see and/or justify the character giving a damn.

What exactly are you proposing as an alternative here? Completely ignoring what's good for Rin and only thinking about what's good for Shirou there are four possible approaches
  1. Stop Rin by killing her. This is the easiest most direct way to neutralize the threat she poses to the public. It also forces Shirou who's already been traumatized enough by this nightmare of a situation to bear the burden of killing his own classmate, irrevocably strains his relationship with Sakura and Sakura's own chances at happiness, and sends him directly down the path to becoming Kiritsugu. If we're prioritizing Shirou's well-being this should be the last option we consider when all else has failed
  2. Ignore Rin. This is a cowardly and shortsighted approach to the situation. It's either passively condemning her to die by sitting around hoping someone else will kill her for us or it's ensuring that she will come back and try to kill us even harder next time. In the meantime it's allowing her to continue her approach and cause more casualties. Doing this is just unacceptable
  3. Force Rin's surrender at gunpoint. Completely crushing Rin's ability to fight back, forcing her surrender, and then imprisoning her to prevent further damage is possible. It is also easier said than done. Assassinating Rin would be one thing (Mata Hari already could have and chose not to) but defeating her without killing her is dramatically harder. Rin's a prodigy of a mage, Salter with Rin as a mana source is enormously strong, and they're both excellent tacticians who know when to retreat. Actually beating them in a straight fight with the servants we have available is going to require an enormous amount of careful planning, could easily cause collateral damage, and will never be a sure thing. That being said this option would stop Rin from endangering the public while preserving Shirou's conscience
  4. Talk Rin down. Like I said in my last post this is doable. Rin already indirectly has blood on her hands but she's wavering and has yet to pass the point of no return. Giving her the opportunity to get off this train before she does solves things in the way that will make both Shirou and Sakura happiest
Of these options 1 is horrible for Shirou and 2 is simply a bad idea. 3 and 4 both solve things in a way Shirou will find acceptable but 4 is definitely the one he'd prefer and is also simply a lot more realistically achievable. I'm not actually confident in our ability to kill Salter right now - a double kill with Mordred reenacting their death scenes seems like it should work but given the difference in Rin vs Shirou's ability to supply mana even that might not do it.

All of which is to say that purely from the perspective of what's best for Shirou talking Rin down still wins as the path forward
 
But for now… now you wanted to talk to Illya's maid.

yay maids!

You had now met her twice, and both times she had done her best to throw you immediately off balance

Leysritt: I was not attempting any such thing, you are simply an idiot.
Medea: FINALLY SOMEONE WHO GETS IT

which led to her getting ideas of retheming Copenhagen until her father yelled that idea out of her brain

.... But if we do a servant themed Copenhagen then we get butler Shirou!

*Medea cackles in BG*

And you certainly didn't understand their interest in you

Medea: It's like being fascinated in a train wreck but the train is nice and you can trust it to not betray you like that asshole Jason.
Taiga: ... .. ....

"Then you are doing this so that you may have your way with me."

Yes!

I mean no

But I see you are but a wild beast that cannot be contained

Circe: It'd make my job easier if he was...alas

"But if they get dirty it is my fault, even if I cannot control the fact that one tends to get messy while flying through the forest at roughly the same speed as a rocket attempting to leave the atmosphere."

Taiga I found you a new drinking buddy!

So you do wish to have your way with me?"

Yes!

I mean no.

Had he meant that? Shirou, Shirou would kill her?

...yeah he will if its kill you or allow you to kill people he'll totally kill you.

And as she hugged her knees tighter to her chest, she began to cry.

But he also doesn't WANT to kill you.

Your servant though? Yeah that bitch is crazy and needs to be put down.
 
Shirou's Life
Adhoc vote count started by Erien on Feb 6, 2024 at 9:20 PM, finished with 43 posts and 21 votes.


Locking in 24.

In the meantime, have Shirou's life.


View: https://i.imgur.com/5hQBIvU.png

Courtesy of my good friend Mel.

Melisa Ong Mi Qin (@MelisaOngMiQin) | Twitter

The latest Tweets from Melisa Ong Mi Qin (@MelisaOngMiQin): "So *happy* to see my Country standing TOGETHER with the others!~ ^.^ https://t.co/KuYTeRMH2I"
 
So that's Ayako and Taiga vainly trying to keep Shirou on the side of sanity, Mata Hari, Circe, and... Illya, I wanna say, vying for his affections? With Medea being tsun tsun off to the side, and Sakura chilling on top of Shirou's head while she ponders whether to pull Shirou back towards sanity or go bugfuck nuts insane herself.
 
So that's Ayako and Taiga vainly trying to keep Shirou on the side of sanity, Mata Hari, Circe, and... Illya, I wanna say, vying for his affections? With Medea being tsun tsun off to the side, and Sakura chilling on top of Shirou's head while she ponders whether to pull Shirou back towards sanity or go bugfuck nuts insane herself.
Correct.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Erien on Feb 6, 2024 at 9:20 PM, finished with 43 posts and 21 votes.


Locking in 24.

In the meantime, have Shirou's life.


View: https://i.imgur.com/5hQBIvU.png

Courtesy of my good friend Mel.

Melisa Ong Mi Qin (@MelisaOngMiQin) | Twitter

The latest Tweets from Melisa Ong Mi Qin (@MelisaOngMiQin): "So *happy* to see my Country standing TOGETHER with the others!~ ^.^ https://t.co/KuYTeRMH2I"


Where is berserker, and why isn't she berserkering
 
[x] [We ask my servants about the leylines]

Baeber is truly gone, not even recognizable as your average Salter. She Is giving me PHH Morgan vibes (being Sisters and all) and that Is just Bad.

Shirou Will Stop Rin, and ideally without killing her...but if pushed, he Will do the deed

PS: wait. Where Is BB?
We know from canon, he will give one chance.

After that, "Bye Shinji"
 
My question is what did Rin DO to Baeber and if we figure it out could we reverse it or use a command seal to fix her? Cause I myself believe Rin has done something truly unforgivable with basically brainwashing and modifying an innocent human being. Even if she is technically not human anymore.
 
What exactly are you proposing as an alternative here? Completely ignoring what's good for Rin and only thinking about what's good for Shirou there are four possible approaches
I... have to propose an alternative? Why is that? At the moment Rin is trying to win the war, which involves killing Shirou, Taiga, Illya, Sakura and now possibly Ayako. Oh, sure, it's 'eliminating', but take one look at Saber's arsenal and mindset and you tell me how much thought is being put in preserving people's lives versus achieving the goal.
  1. Stop Rin by killing her. This is the easiest most direct way to neutralize the threat she poses to the public. It also forces Shirou who's already been traumatized enough by this nightmare of a situation to bear the burden of killing his own classmate, irrevocably strains his relationship with Sakura and Sakura's own chances at happiness, and sends him directly down the path to becoming Kiritsugu. If we're prioritizing Shirou's well-being this should be the last option we consider when all else has failed
That's a possibility, yes, but as for it being 'the last', I can think of two options that come before it. Letting innocents die, and letting any of our friends/allies/camp followers come to irrepairable harm. If it comes to that, Rin dies, and if it even comes to risking that, there is a high chance Rin dies just so it is avoided.

And it will come to risking that. It's not the vote button I would smash with wild abandon, but I am not letting people be killed off so that Sakura could be happy drinking tea with their murderer in the aftermath, and I find Shirou's peace of mind is a weak reason for gambling with their lives.

I'd add 'dying ourselves' to that list, but with the way the quest mechanic works, it's a complete non-issue and does not warrant a consideration from the players.

Years spent on this site observing magical girl quests have inured me to these situations. A tragic, broken villain's sob story is revealed (because every QM worth their salt won't write a villain without a motivation), and the thread goes "aww, this tall-dark-and-mysterious is so cute and broken, let's hug the evil out of her", and should the genre tropes fail and the expected happen, the same thread would be clamoring for her blood because she hurt the characters people really care about.

3. Force Rin's surrender at gunpoint. Completely crushing Rin's ability to fight back, forcing her surrender, and then imprisoning her to prevent further damage is possible. It is also easier said than done. Assassinating Rin would be one thing (Mata Hari already could have and chose not to) but defeating her without killing her is dramatically harder. Rin's a prodigy of a mage, Salter with Rin as a mana source is enormously strong, and they're both excellent tacticians who know when to retreat. Actually beating them in a straight fight with the servants we have available is going to require an enormous amount of careful planning, could easily cause collateral damage, and will never be a sure thing. That being said this option would stop Rin from endangering the public while preserving Shirou's conscience
Yes, otherwise known as 'killing the Servant'. This is Shirou's go-to option, now that 'not fighting at all' has failed. Dangerous and oftentimes stupidly suicidal compared to more expedient solutions, it is the perfect fit for the character. I expect this to be the thread's choice in absense of stronger motivations.

4. Talk Rin down. Like I said in my last post this is doable. Rin already indirectly has blood on her hands but she's wavering and has yet to pass the point of no return. Giving her the opportunity to get off this train before she does solves things in the way that will make both Shirou and Sakura happiest
Yes, this is theoretically possible.

However, what I see in the Interlude is not wavering. It's regret, yes, but also a resolution to go through with it now that she's come that far. Before she is a Young Girl, she is a Magus and a Master. She'll cry her eyes out, wipe the tears, dust herself off, and will continue on the path she set for herself. Because it was not a misstep, but a logical development.

Before she killed a person in collateral, she led her Servant to damnation, and before that, she resolved to kill a classmate for being a rival. Each step is easier than the one before it, and the next one -- ignoring the notion of the collateral -- will come to her even easier and with minimal heartbreak once she is done crying. I am not particularly sure why it falls on us to be her therapist and conscience, but the time where she'd listen to words alone had been at the start of that road. Now she will have her pride and sunken costs to drive her forward.

And she has positive feedback about her decisions, too. I can't see a way we get through to Rin without removing her Servant out of the picture first. There is no plausible scenario under which a thing like Saber is being talked into standing down and turning down victory she sacrificed so much for. Wherever Rin is on her way to the bottom, Saber is two steps ahead, and is lending her an ever-helping hand.

Still, I'd love to see the thread reaction if it were Rin we'd come to talk to instead of Illya. "Alright, you and me then. Come alone." Would we do this? Ah, what am I saying, of course we'd do this! "You and that meguka over there," then. Now it's not so simple, is it?
I am just having trouble imagining the circumstances under which we'd be able to hold a conversation that would change anyone's mind about anything.

So my personal bet is on 3, keeping 1 in reserve.
 
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