Fate/Clusterfuck (Fate/Stay Night)

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TheGrape said:
The worst part of Sauron being a Servant is that such a thing is canonically possible in Fate.

Historical figures, future heroes, fictional characters, personifications of plague and war and famine and death, actual living people, you can summon anybody as a Servant.
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Does this mean sonichu can canonically be a servant
 
Revlid said:
Eh. It sort of... varies, depending on who's writing and what angle you're looking from and what mood Nasu's in.

The original FSN, for example, treats the decision to have Sasaki Kojiro be a fictional, invented character (implicitly positioning every other mythological figure in the story as an actually real person who genuinely existed, which they pretty much have to be when they directly contradict the popular image of that character) as something important and meaningful. The resulting Servant is not Sasaki Kojiro, he is just Some Dude who never got famous enough to make it to the Throne of Heroes, but had the insane skills needed to approximate the role of Sasaki Kojiro. He's a ghost stuffed into a Sasaki Kojiro costume, and as a result he doesn't even have a "proper" Noble Phantasm (inasmuch as it matters).

Fate/Extra returns to play with this idea using Robin Hood (there were a bunch of "real" Robin Hoods, this guy was just one of the people to adopt the title, and doesn't think he even did a very good job), Vlad Tepes (a historical man with an invented vampiric legend, driven mad by the metaphysical influence of the latter, which manifests as a Skill in its own right, Innocent Monster), and Nursery Rhyme (she seems like a Servant version of Lewis Carrol's fictional Alice, but actually there's weirdness going on and she's not even really a Servant so much as a dying child's magical tulpa).

Apocrypha plays with this idea even more explicitly by returning to Vlad Tepes, who is a historical figure who is not Dracula, because Dracula was a fictional character and was not real, even if everyone thinks he's Dracula. Notably, when Vlad's forced to use the Noble Phantasm which transforms him into Dracula, he is not a Dead Apostle - which is what a "real" historical vampire would be in this setting. He's an expression of the entirely fictional character Dracula, with all the powers and weaknesses that entails. Of course, Apocrypha also has Frankenstein's Monster just... show up, apparently as a real person and actual Heroic Spirit, but that's far from the worst writing in that story.

Fate/Zero doesn't really touch on it except vaguely through Bluebeard, who is the actual historical figure Gilles de Rais, not the invented fairy tale character Bluebeard, despite bearing that title and being one of the character's inspirations.

A lot of fanfic writers took Sasaki Kojiro's original scenario as license to do silly shit like summon Harry Potter or the Hulk, but setting aside the tonal issues, that's not really how Sasaki worked. He wasn't a fictional character summoned as a Heroic Spirit to be a Servant. He was a real dude, summoned to fill the shoes of a Heroic Spirit who could have existed, but unfortunately wasn't real. A real ghost wearing an empty legend like an ill-fitting suit.

FGO then skids wildly all over the map, because a) we want to do a bunch of obviously fictional Servants but we don't have the time, space, or motivation to run through existential musings for all of them, b) there's no time, we need five Singularity scripts out the door yesterday and we don't care if it shows, c) Nasu changed his mind, pick between one and three options.

Then Sherlock Holmes shows up as a major character and Heroic Spirit, so he's clearly a real person despite being famously fictional in-setting, Mash has read the books written by an author about this fictional character. Except no, he's actually a crystallisation of the whole detective genre and the idea of mystery revealers, presumably built around the spirit of an anonymous detective or Joseph Bell. Except no, here's a spin-off story where he interacts with real actual historical characters, so he's a real person again. Except no, his profile is acting all coy about whether he's real, and here's Moriarty teasing the idea that neither of them are real people, and Holmes gets uncomfortable about addressing it. And in fact, Moriarty's whole EoR chapter revolves around the conceit of "Phantom Spirits" who are too vague, obscure, or transparently fictional to become true Heroic Spirits, but can be fused with each other or used to alloy the legends of actual Heroic Spirits.

The Count of Monte Cristo is a Heroic Spirit and definitely a real person, because he killed a significant character (Roa) in an actual historical battle that really happened in the history of the setting. The author of the fictional work, the Count of Monte Cristo, which he wrote as fiction, is also definitely a real person who exists in the setting, because a) he wrote the damn book, b) he also gets summoned as a Heroic Spirit. So you know what, it's all whatever, just stare vaguely into the middle distance and mutter something about "world layers" and "consolidation of mystery" and "something something Second Magic something".

Anyway, going by the examples presented, the most consistent things that would happen if you summoned J.R.R. Tolkien's Sauron would be a) Sauron was actually a real person in the setting, I guess, don't think too hard about it, b) you summoned Andvari, the shapeshifting dwarf from Norse mythology who cursed the magical ring Andvaranaut at the centre of Der Ring des Nibelungen, and you're just calling him Sauron because you misunderstood and the Holy Grail thinks it's funny, c) you summoned the ghost of some random historical ringsmith, possibly magical, who went unrecorded in history, and he got stuffed into a really flimsy Sauron costume because you're an idiot, d) you summoned some kind of demon that is using the accumulated concept of Sauron, and by extension a jumble of more firmly established ideas around Lucifer, Gyges, the tempting devil, etc, as an anchor and vessel for existing in this world as a Servant.

I'm placing money on d), for what it's worth, because to my recollection Sauron wasn't ever really much into the Lovecraftian SAN damage, so much as... making very tempting offers and letting people destroy themselves.
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So I could summon Alan Wake and have him rewrite reality?
 
6.17 - The Shadow in The West
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    • Touch Dom said:
    Annatar
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    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t032o9ECs0c

    Thanks to @Armoury for the beta!

    —

    It was always so very simple to twist the evils that lurked in the hearts of men. Power, greed, lust? Tools. One simply needed to offer them what they wanted, and they would come willingly. Even the proudest of the Atani would kneel, in time. But then…

    Annatar looked out the window over the city, and smiled. These weren't those men. There were no elves, no Maiar, no Valar. He had been… surprised to be brought here, but he adapted, for Sauron was many things, wise amongst them, and he always had been quick to adapt to the changes of the world. His 'makers' were dead, one of age, the other never existed in this realm to begin with.

    Neither was a loss, not to him, not to his goals. This world was… chaotic, it's 'Magus' a far cry from the wizards he knew. These were blind men, stumbling in the dark. Lost to the intricacies of the world around them as they scrambled and clawed at an ever distant past escaping them like wind through the grain. All that remained for them was pale imitations and fraught imaginings. He had since set them right.

    He had set them all right.

    And how could they not?

    They sought knowledge, and knowledge was something he could gift. They sought power, and power was something he could provide. And now, it was done, and he could continue. Seven rings had been offered. Six had been taken, one had escaped, one had disappeared along with the master it had been granted to.

    Annatar looked back, to the shadows curling in the corner of the room. For a moment they were a man, then they were something else, indescribable even to him. Eyes met eyes, spirits met spirit. Then they were gone, their only remains fading tendrils. An annoyance, but nothing more than that, the servant remained, and it would be used. All would bend to his will.

    All would right the inefficiency of this realm.

    Annatar smiled, he simply needed…

    Two days, perhaps three.

    Then the grail would be his, and with it.

    He would call upon his…

    No.

    Master wasn't the word. He was a tool like everything else, this world needed to be remade so that he could rule it.

    But it was a finely crafted tool nevertheless.

    "Are we leaving soon? I'm bored." Reines commented.

    Annatar looked to her, laid back on the couch, one hand waving in the air.

    "Soon, then we shall be seeing… an old friend of mine."

    Reine's head perked at that. "Oh? Someone as wonderful as you, Oberon?"

    "Perhaps," Annatar replied with a simple smile. "But there are many things that could be described as wonderful, and that word has changed in any case."

    "Who are we seeing then?"

    "Melkor."

    ---

    One sidestory left.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • Melkor is wonderful. He provokes wonder.
    Melkor is marvellous. He causes marvels.
    Melkor is fantastic. He creates fantasies.
    Melkor is glamorous. He projects glamour.
    Melkor is enchanting. He weaves enchantment.
    Melkor is terrific. He begets terror.
    The thing about words is that meanings can twist just like a snake, and if you want to find snakes look for them behind words that have changed their meaning.
    No one ever said Melkor is nice.
    Melkor is bad.

    Edit:
    The same goes for Annatar.
     
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    Erien said:
    Seven rings had been offered. Six had been taken, one had escaped, one had disappeared along with the master it had been granted to.
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    … Did Sauron actually make eight, or is he just specifying how the one other ring went missing?
    Erien said:
    Annatar looked back, to the shadows curling in the corner of the room. For a moment they were a man, then they were something else, indescribable even to him. Eyes met eyes, spirits met spirit. Then they were gone, their only remains fading tendrils. An annoyance, but nothing more than that, the servant remained, and it would be used. All would bend to his will.
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    A shadowy Servant that was once a man. While one could easily conclude this was an Assassin…

    I can't help but wonder if The Angry Mango decided to go "take care" of a problem.
     
    Always Late said:
    … Did Sauron actually make eight, or is he just specifying how the one other ring went missing?

    A shadowy Servant that was once a man. While one could easily conclude this was an Assassin…

    I can't help but wonder if The Angry Mango decided to go "take care" of a problem.
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    Seven rings, one is now missing, one escaped.
     
    Stonehelm101 said:
    I'm hoping the missing one belonged to Luvia and she regained her senses.
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    Erien said:
    Seven rings, one is now missing, one escaped.
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    Hm… sounds like the Missing Ring is Sauron being bound by the logic of his story, and someone's about to get nominated the newest member of the Baggins clan. Or get a nasty case of DID. Which means the escape of El Cid is probably all we're getting out of Clocktower besides Anime Heiress Smugness.
     
    Always Late said:
    Hm… sounds like the Missing Ring is Sauron being bound by the logic of his story, and someone's about to get nominated the newest member of the Baggins clan. Or get a nasty case of DID. Which means the escape of El Cid is probably all we're getting out of Clocktower besides Anime Heiress Smugness.
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    The more important question is if it's an interesting sidestory!
     
    Erien said:
    Neither was a loss, not to him, not to his goals. This world was… chaotic, it's 'Magus' a far cry from the wizards he knew. These were blind men, stumbling in the dark. Lost to the intricacies of the world around them as they scrambled and clawed at an ever distant past escaping them like wind through the grain. All that remained for them was pale imitations and fraught imaginings. He had since set them right.

    He had set them all right.
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    Everyone is the hero in their own story.
    Erien said:
    The more important question is if it's an interesting sidestory!
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    I'm certainly interested in how we've going to take on the Dark Lord himself, or if that's even something we're even going to deal with in this case or if he's a larger villain who'll be back for a hypothetical sequel quest.
     
    On the bright side Sauron does kind of have a baked in conceptual weakness to his jewelry getting destroyed. To tarnish the silver lining he certainly knows and has to at least some extent accounted for this because Sauron is gonna Sauron.

    Also if he succeeds in summoning a full powered Melkor would be world endingly bad but that goes without saying - though Melkor's status as a divine(?) spirit kinda makes me wonder what that summoning would look like.
     
    SomeOneElse007 said:
    On the bright side Sauron does kind of have a baked in conceptual weakness to his jewelry getting destroyed. To tarnish the silver lining he certainly knows and has to at least some extent accounted for this because Sauron is gonna Sauron.

    Also if he succeeds in summoning a full powered Melkor would be world endingly bad but that goes without saying - though Melkor's status as a divine(?) spirit kinda makes me wonder what that summoning would look like.
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    The amount of power needed would basically be a Grail in its own right no?
     
    Preventer Squall said:
    Tldr: An idiot magus summoned Satan, who told everyone he was just a big fae, whereafter many of the Tower execs both believed him and decided to take gifts from an admitted fae.

    They got what the deserved, and things are getting worse.
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    Tbf, Sauron was never Satan. That was always Melkor/Morgoth. He was the first one to fuck up Eru Iluvatar's music. Sauron was Morgoth's right hand. But yeah, I realize I'm nitpicking.
     
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