Cult Creator - The Pilgrims Journey

[MrRobot]

Ok with a trough read on it it's clear that we soon be bottlenecked on research.
Simplily put we need more labs otherwise we will be running out of simple researchs for a long time, and for that we need to bite the bullet and industrialize massively.

So the safety research came in a decent time.
Otherwise we will need more robots.

 

[karmaoa]

On an unrelated note; we probably should research the algae the Weaver of Sinews eats. It sounds like there is a risk we drain/dry out the Forest of Rust if we get what we need. Which means we could get an angry/starving Weaver out of that.

To avoid the possibility of a rampaging Behemoth, we might want to figure out how to farm those algae in Norqod. Even if we don't drain the Forest, those algae could be useful.

 

[MrRobot]

I mean we probably could try, a tamed behemoth would be a nice boon even if it's just a curiosity.

Trough considering how much coil fire we can pour at this point the migration waves would probably be q bigger problem that a rampaging behemoth on itself

 

[MrRageQuit]

Ok with a trough read on it it's clear that we soon be bottlenecked on research.
Simplily put we need more labs otherwise we will be running out of simple researchs for a long time, and for that we need to bite the bullet and industrialize massively.

Click to shrink...

The industrialization wouldn't make a difference here. The bottleneck is having sufficient Experts/Specialists to meet the requirements. Which I have accounted for in my Three-Year Plan, I assure you. Also, I'm not so worried about simple research - we have plenty of that between the Naqur Engine tech line, Agriculture, and Weapons.

On an unrelated note; we probably should research the algae the Weaver of Sinews eats. It sounds like there is a risk we drain/dry out the Forest of Rust if we get what we need. Which means we could get an angry/starving Weaver out of that.

Click to shrink...

Well, if my understanding is correct, we'll find what's there - but will have a chance to work out how to remove this stuff without the drying up happening.

 

[MrRobot]

The industrialization wouldn't make a difference here. The bottleneck is having sufficient Experts/Specialists to meet the requirements. Which I have accounted for in my Three-Year Plan, I assure you. Also, I'm not so worried about simple research - we have plenty of that between the Naqur Engine tech line, Agriculture, and Weapons

Click to shrink...

We are not talking about the same bottleneck.

Simplily put we are running out of easy research and the only viable way to get trough it would be even more labs, wich requires a shit ton of robot's. So we either fund another massive stash or we get our own robots. Thus requiring industry to produce said robots.

There's research to be done yes, but nothing tremendously impactful that is not in a new tier of reserch, at best we could make some argument to use research actions to get skyship related tech.

 

[Amilia]

Simplily put we are running out of easy research and the only viable way to get trough it would be even more labs, wich requires a shit ton of robot's. So we either fund another massive stash or we get our own robots.

Click to shrink...

You forget that we can get theories to bump our DC numbers up. And we can also use Learning actions to poke at artefacts we don't know much about like the machine larva and that Temporal Storage Container we have had since forever.

And I still have a couple of techs I could suggest to keep adding to the pile.

 

[MrRobot]

You forget that we can get theories to bump our DC numbers up. And we can also use Learning actions to poke at artefacts we don't know much about like the machine larva and that Temporal Storage Container we have had since forever.

And I still have a couple of techs I could suggest to keep adding to the pile.

Click to shrink...

Not forget per say but the artefact are kinda a bunch of shots in the dark (we really don't know how hero would interpret a sucess on a artifact).

And for the tech sugestion there's nothing that impactful or game changer. The safety measures for instance are just a incremental research that would allow to us bite the bullet and get the industry on.

Sure we could keep researching weapons but is still nothing pushing the evelope.

 

[Amilia]

And for the tech sugestion there's nothing that impactful or game changer.

Click to shrink...

You think starting to poke into genetics won't have any impact at all?

And most tech is incremental so I don't get why you are suddenly alarmed.

Also, I am still not sure if Automation will be good for us. I feel like the amount of jobs lost will offset any gain in efficiency.

 

[MrRobot]

You think starting to poke into genetics won't have any impact at all?

Click to shrink...

Yes genetics must remain a heavily theorical field for a long time before we get anything out of it. The empire is vere twitchy when comes on possibly creating mutants.

And most tech is incremental so I don't get why you are suddenly alarmed.

Click to shrink...

There's a difference in creating a new tech that would help the population or production and create a new gun.

Also, I am still not sure if Automation will be good for us. I feel like the amount of jobs lost will offset any gain in efficiency.

Click to shrink...

We are heavily under industrialized, the sooner we automate the lesser the impact it would have in the people when we do keep it for later would only make things harder. And any loss of jobs can be offset by expanding the job pool with mass construction. It's not a universal solution but it the best for this settlement. A more industrial one would need ample implementation of welfare measures that would be really easier when we can build on .ass.

 

[MrRageQuit]

Okay, math issues identified:

Members Total: 5.418

Click to shrink...

5300 last turn + 111 = 5411.

Members: 3.847

Click to shrink...

Last turn for Tessen was 3804. 3804+47 = 3851.

-Followers: 3.709 (459 (18 Faithful) unoccupied)

Click to shrink...

-Faithful: 28/132

Click to shrink...

3671+47 = 3719, and 346+47 = 393 unoccupied (15 Faithful). That's before factoring in the sudden jump from 23 Faithful to 28... so either we should have less than 28FF right now, or the unoccupied should go down to 393-125 = 268 unoccupied (10 Faithful).

 

[Amilia]

There's a difference in creating a new tech that would help the population or production and create a new gun.

Click to shrink...

And the only reason most of those big techs were so low is because we upgraded our research building which gave us a huge DC boost. So its less 'we are running out of easy research' and more we have finally caught up and research is returning to normal.

by expanding the job pool with mass construction.

Click to shrink...

But we are also using the robots to build stuff. Like, I don't see how the math adds up. I can't see how construction is going to give enough jobs to make up for our whole industrial sector. Nor that those jobs will pay better than the industry jobs that are being lost.

I feel that pursuing automation at this junture feels at odds with our mission to help people and just helps the Pilgrim's industrial needs.

 

[MrRobot]

But we are also using the robots to build stuff. Like, I don't see how the math adds up. I can't see how construction is going to give enough jobs to make up for our whole industrial sector. Nor that those jobs will pay better than the industry jobs that are being lost.

I feel that pursuing automation at this junture feels at odds with our mission to help people and just helps the Pilgrim's industrial needs.

Click to shrink...

We are not generating Jobs by constructing thing slower, or my point was never that we will be putting the people that go out of the few industry we do have in construction. They are a non transferable skill. But if we create more automated industry people will fill those roles.

More the fact that our action pool will outpace the city passive expansion, that is not how cities
go.

Pursuing automation in this juncture is necessary because it deal the least amount of problems. The more we industrialize truly the more of the employment loss it will bring when we do automate.

And we need to automate not only due how it make producing things cost less but make them standardized. Not only weapons, but clothing, medicine, prostetics everything we need to do in bulk to actually be able do to welfare.

TLDR: Not automating criples our capacity to scale up and afect society on a macro scale. Automating later will hurt a lot more people.

 

[MrRageQuit]

We are not generating Jobs by constructing thing slower, or my point was never that we will be putting the people that go out of the few industry we do have in construction. They are a non transferable skill. But if we create more automated industry people will fill those roles.

Pursuing automation in this juncture is necessary because it deal the least amount of problems. The more we industrialize truly the more of the employment loss it will bring when we do automate.

Click to shrink...

Well no they won't. Because it's not a 1:1 jobs disappear, new job is created. Besides, we're talking about people who won't just be able to transfer over - they don't have the skills required and we're talking about the lower classes, who won't have the money to study and learn even if the education were available. The Empire is schizo-tech, yes, but the reality is that society is largely on the agrarian, pre-industrial scale.

Pursuing automation in this juncture is necessary because it deal the least amount of problems. The more we industrialize truly the more of the employment loss it will bring when we do automate.

Click to shrink...

No, we'll get an economic disaster if we do it now. If we do it later, it'll still be messy, but we'll have more time for an educated and wealthier populace that can better handle the transition.

And we need to automate not only due how it make producing things cost less but make them standardized.

TLDR: Not automating criples our capacity to scale up and afect society on a macro scale. Automating later will hurt a lot of people more.

Click to shrink...

Buddy, we're talking about a single town here. We're not going to match a Forge-Clan or city's level of production. The only area where we have the ability to meaningfully affect the macro-level through production are airships, and that's because we're one half of a duopoly by Imperial edict.

Even then, it demonstrates the point I want to make: our ability to affect the macro-level comes from R&D and disseminating that knowledge. We didn't churn out coilguns, we showed up and dominated the BICL contest with our demonstration models, foisted the actual mass-production work onto the Empire and got them to thank us for it.

The next time we want to make a big innovation spread, all we have to do is demonstrate it, then sell/license the designs to every industrialist, Noble House, or branch of the government that comes racing to our door. Industrialization in Norquod isn't about spewing our creations onto the world, it's about providing a diversified economy and plenty of jobs for the people that come to live here.

 

[Pyro Hawk]

It's at -350 for one success. Our research is just not up to it.

We can up our chances with Theories and doing other techs with the same categories.

so best to do the New Age stuff and the 3D printer first to see how mant theories we will need.

Click to shrink...

So you are saying that failing a research roll badly causes issues if the difficulty check is high? Thought it would be just a 'good job, you made everyone tired and confused as expected'. Because my thoughts were more or less we stick it in a Learning slot, have at least one of our auto-sux on it each turn and then use the fact we are 'progressing' the research to have the 'success odds increase every third turn' start counting up.

Because I have the feeling that we need it 'active' for the difficulty reductions to start and this is one where we want it ticking away for a long time, not trying to maximize successes per turn. And I was pretty sure auto-successes are, you know, auto-successes.

 

[Amilia]

Because I have the feeling that we need it 'active' for the difficulty reductions to start and this is one where we want it ticking away for a long time, not trying to maximize successes per turn. And I was pretty sure auto-successes are, you know, auto-successes.

Click to shrink...

For the 25%, yes. But its still 89 successes. We would be locking our Autosuccesses for a long time, and that would slow every other type of development.

I'd rather get a couple of Pioneer theories first, knock some 150 points off that DC before starting.

 

[MrRageQuit]

[] Plan: 9 to 5
-[L] [Faith] Establish Soup-Kitchens Within Outlying Towns - (3/5 Turns Complete)
-[L] [Faith] Cleaning Up The Mess - (Ularn) - (1/2 Turns Complete)
-[] [Endless Skies] Organized Airship Manufactory - 1 Line - (Caravaner Mark 2)
--[] Hire Contractors x3
--[] Elite Contractors
-[L] [Diplomacy] The Great Trade Fleets (Somber Everland) - (1/3 Turns Complete)
--[] (Ashleaf Tea +15, Merchants Guild +15, Lead By Example +30, We Can Do It! +10, Mutated +10, Object of Veneration +20, Trauma: Common People Purge Survivor -5) = +95
-[] [Diplomacy] Create A Dossier On (House Tisa, Free City of Zimbasa, Free City of Nariq)
--[] (Ashleaf Tea +15, 5FF) = +20
-[] [Subversion] Train Your Infiltrators - (Greater) - (0/4 Turns Complete)
-[] [Martial] Scout Out - (TP-04) - (The Unbroken)
--[] (5FF) = +5
-[] [Martial] Guards! Guards! (Holdings: Berth, Medical Wing; Norquod: Cat Alley, Caravansery Halls, Steel Foundry)
-[] [Learning] New Age Work Equipment (Advanced Metallurgy/Medicine/Biology) - (0/5 Successes)
--[] (Scientific Theory +15, Black Box +5, Mutated: Allied +20, 1[SC] +12, 1[TSC] +18) = +70
--[] (2x Ever-Green Leaves +5 to Biology, 3x Mechano-Fibrous Materials +20 to Advanced Machinery/Biology/Medicine, 1x 3-Dimensional Machinery Model Kits +20 to Advanced Machinery/Metallurgy/Armor) = +90
-[] [Learning] New Age Work Environment (Advanced Machinery/Mechanics) - (0/5 Successes)
--[] (Scientific Theory +15, Black Box +5, Soaring Wrenches +50, Adjudicator +50) = +120
--[] (2x 3-Dimensional Machinery Model Kits +20 to Advanced Machinery/Metallurgy/Armor) = +40
-[] [Learning] To Print In Three Dimensions (Pioneer Mechanics/Metallurgy/Hydraulics/Physics/Programming/Machinery/Electronics) - (0/17 Successes)
--[] Cost: 3D Metal Printer
--[] [DoD], [PD], (Scientific Theory +15, Black Box +5, Soaring Wrenches +50, Electronics Manufacture - Ancient Circuits +150, Head of the Experimental Wing +50, 2[FC] +120) = +390
--[] (10x Bunker Electronic Artifacts +5 to Electronics) = +50
-[] [Learning] Pain-B-Gone Part 3 - (Advanced Medicine/Chemicals) - (0/25 Successes)
--[] [MSC], (Scientific Theory +15, Mutated: Allied +20, 1[DOC] +6, 2[SUR] +24) = +65
--[] (36x Bunker Hospital Artifacts +20 to Advanced Chemicals/Medicine/Psychology/Biology/Machinery) = +620
-[] [Learning] Natural Pesticides - (Advanced Biology/Chemicals) - (0/9 Successes)
--[] [VF], (Scientific Theory +15, Mutated: Allied +20, 1[DOC] +6, 1[SC] +12, 1[TSC] +18) = +71
--[] (4x Unknown Seed Samples +5 to Biology, Rotten Swarm Missile +20 to Advanced Weaponry/Biology, Rotting Warheads +20 to Advanced Weaponry/Biology, 2x Unusable Legionary-Warheads +20 to Advanced Weaponry/Programming/Biology, 2x Larva Vivisection Reports +20 to Advanced Biology, 2x Rare Plant Samples +20 to Advanced Biology, 5x Illustrated Genome Map of Artificial Invertebrates +20 to Advanced Biology/Chemicals, 4x Bunker Hospital Artifacts +20 to Advanced Chemicals/Medicine/Psychology/Biology/Machinery) = +360
-[] [Learning] Translations For Beginners - (1x Tenebris Library Book) - (0/1 Success)
--[] (Scientific Theory +15) = +15
-[] [Archeology] Loot The Third Floor (Room #1)
-[] [Archeology] Wander Amidst The Hidden Forest - (0/1 Turns Complete)
-[] [Archeology] The Smokestack's Bowels - (0/9 Turns Complete) - (Rust-Scouts)
--[] (18[ENG] +252, 2[TENG] +48) = +300
-[L] [Tree of Knowledge] Library - (Expanded) - (2/13 Turns Complete) - [Sandcrete]
-[] [Holdings] Bank - Tiny - (0/9 Turns Complete)
--[] Hire Contractors x3
-[L] [Holdings] Clear The Paths, Break The Walls, Grind The Bars - (4/10 Turns Complete)
--[] Hire Contractors x2
-[] [Holdings] Small Chemical Goods Manufactury - (0/4 Turns Complete)
--[] Hire Contractors x3
-[] [Holdings - Piety] The Evergreen Gardens - Small - (0/1 Turns Complete)
-[] [Martyris] Shift Your Bureaucracy From (Martial) To (Endless Skies) [-0.01 Goodwill]
-[] [Martyris] Too Much To Do (New Age Work Environment)
-[] [Aria] Lead By Example (The Great Trade Fleets)
-[] [Turi] Too Much To Do (To Print In Three Dimensions)
-[] [Merchants] Procure (Elite Contractors - Progress to Assigned Building)
-[] [Adventurers] Guardians For Hire (Ularn: Expanded Hospice Network)
-[L] [Herbalists] Study Sessions - (2/7 Turns Complete)
-[] [4S] In The Name Of Co-Operation! - (The Little Crystal That Could Pt. 2) [-25 Goodwill]
-[L] [Vanar-Feer] Unlimited Specialists Galore [-16 Faithful]
--[L] (4x Common Engineers) - (5/6 Turns Complete)
--[] (6x Trained Scientists) - (0/10 Turns Complete)
--[] (10x Trained Engineers) - (0/10 Turns Complete)
--[L] (4x Captains) - (7/10 Turns Complete)
--[L] (2x Forge-Smiths) - (10/15 Turns Complete)
-[] [Followers of Light] For The Nation - (Build Outlying Fortified Orphanages) [-3.5 Goodwill]
-[] [Sunken Hollows] Send Support (Wetlands Farming Kit) [-10 Goodwill]

Goodwill Cost: 0.01+25+3.5+10 = 38.51

Nutshell: Everything is being aligned to come together on Turn 109, so that we can plow through the next Lab Complex and begin the next stage of the Norquod Scientific Complex. My thinking is that between those two, we can replace our Scientists and Engineers with the Specialists tiers from then on. And since at this point our second Martial action is just excess, we can move that to Archeology and have it facilitate our scavenging and exploration.

Edit: After receiving input, switching the Shift Your Bureaucracy target category to Endless Skies.

 

[Amilia]

-[] [Martyris] Shift Your Bureaucracy From (Martial) To (Archeology) [-0.01 Goodwill]

Click to shrink...

Shouldn't we shift this action to Endless Skies instead? That way we can keep expanding production while also doing the new actions in the category.

 

[Pyro Hawk]

For the 25%, yes. But its still 89 successes. We would be locking our Autosuccesses for a long time, and that would slow every other type of development.

I'd rather get a couple of Pioneer theories first, knock some 150 points off that DC before starting.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough, hadn't thought about Pioneer Theories due to how little the various Theories tend to get pushed in favour of more 'immediately useful' tech. Though that might be changing soon with how we are running low on the 'easy to achieve' techs.

But would you be willing to start the grind by grabbing a few relevant Pioneer Theories over the next few turns?

 

[Amilia]

But would you be willing to start the grind by grabbing a few relevant Pioneer Theories over the next few turns?

Click to shrink...

You'll have to bother RageQuit for that, he's the one calculating plans. And I think he's planning to go for the better research buildings to reduce DCs.

On a completely unrelated matter, I have designed the Militant's bigger and meaner sibling. And it needs a name, because calling it the Warriors feels blander then white bread.

 

[MrRageQuit]

Shouldn't we shift this action to Endless Skies instead? That way we can keep expanding production while also doing the new actions in the category.

Click to shrink...

Hmm. Maybe, maybe.

But would you be willing to start the grind by grabbing a few relevant Pioneer Theories over the next few turns?

Click to shrink...

You'll have to bother RageQuit for that, he's the one calculating plans. And I think he's planning to go for the better research buildings to reduce DCs.

Click to shrink...

That is my medium turn plan, yes. The issue with Pioneer Theories are that they are still a tad costly. Without auto-successes, the target to meet all 18 Successes is 575. Even when taking into account Soaring Wrenches, Electronics Manufacture, and other bonuses, there's still a bit to go. Mind you, with a sufficient expenditure of Bunker Artifacts, we can do it readily enough for Pioneer Electronics multiple times...

Others not so much. It might be worth locking up a slot for five or so turns for Learning To Take Census Pt. 2 and seeing how that helps, but at the same time we'd might as well wait and see what boosts the new Lab Complex does for Assemble The Theorists!

Hmm. I will say that I'm open to grabbing Pioneer Electronics Theories, but that's it. It will also depend on what kind of project is required to get the Forester and/or other goodies without draining the Forest of Rust.

 

[Amilia]

Hmm. Maybe, maybe.

Click to shrink...

We definitely should. We have a lot to do over there with the new design we need to prototype, the buildings we have to do and the research.

Also, what do you think of the new design? I'm thinking of adding a third Coilgun but I'm not sure of the upgraded versions of the other weapons will consume more power.

 

[MrRageQuit]

Also, what do you think of the new design? I'm thinking of adding a third Coilgun but I'm not sure of the upgraded versions of the other weapons will consume more power.

Click to shrink...

It might help if you included the link.

 

[Amilia]

It might help if you included the link.

Click to shrink...

It's the same link as last time. It's Page 7 as it doesn't have a name yet.

Ship Designs

docs.google.com

 

[MrRageQuit]

It's the same link as last time. It's Page 7 as it doesn't have a name yet.

Ship Designs

docs.google.com

Click to shrink...

Hmm. Hmm.

My two several bits:
1) Drop the regular Coilguns and replace with a second Lance Coilgun. It's more symmetrical, saves resources, and the Lance Coilguns are turrets, so we'll get a far greater arc of firepower, particularly when both are directed at one target. One for top, one for bottom?
2) When you've got 62 power left over, I can't help but think there are clear inefficiencies in play.
3) I feel like it would be cheaper and more straightforward to run everything on a single Medium cube, but even with the Lance swap that still leaves 100k Lift to make up for. There are some possibilities though in the next couple points.
4) It may be worth waiting and revising the designs after the coilguns are improved, since those may reduce Lift, Crew, and/or Power demands.
5) Also worth seeing what the upcoming Naqur-Engines bring to the table. 4 Big Vuurs provide approximately the Power required while only taking a fraction of the Mashiiir Oil Converter's Lift cost, merely needing one more Fuel Storage, and negligible (all things considered) Structure costs. The only issue are the Crew demands, which I'd think the Naqurs could provide a saving on - and extra Crew Amenities will provide a cheap way to buffer the costs.
6) There's no need for the (cargo) Storage, that's 6k Lift that can be freed up without any problems.

 

[Amilia]

Drop the regular Coilguns and replace with a second Lance Coilgun. It's more symmetrical, saves resources, and the Lance Coilguns are turrets, so we'll get a far greater arc of firepower, particularly when both are directed at one target. One for top, one for bottom?

Click to shrink...

I gave it the two different guns because I wanted this ships to be able to fire at enemies at different distances simultaneously. Like how RL Navy ships have guns of different sizes on the same ship. So we would have the Lance for long range, Regular for medium and Repeaters for short range.

So I might add another Lance, but I would not remove the Regulars as that I feel that would make it more vulnerable.

2) When you've got 62 power left over, I can't help but think there are clear inefficiencies in play.

Click to shrink...

That's why I was aksing if I should add an extra gun. I was always going to fill that energy gap but wanted some wiggle room for when they are standarized.

3) I feel like it would be cheaper and more straightforward to run everything on a single Medium cube, but even with the Lance swap that still leaves 100k Lift to make up for. There are some possibilities though in the next couple points.

Click to shrink...

That would mean going from around 300 armor and 270 Structure to 180 Armor and 140 Structure. It would leave it way too squishy for its size. Remember that the Air Force uses 50% of their Lift in Armor, this design almost barely reaches 40%.

4) It may be worth waiting and revising the designs after the coilguns are improved, since those may reduce Lift, Crew, and/or Power demands.

Click to shrink...

At worst I'l shift some Armor Plates and Berths around, most of the design is staying as it is. Besides, I'm not going to push for prototyping it until after we get the other two standard Coilguns.

(However, the Scout design on the other page is ready for prototyping)

5) Also worth seeing what the upcoming Naqur-Engines bring to the table. 4 Big Vuurs provide approximately the Power required while only taking a fraction of the Mashiiir Oil Converter's Lift cost, merely needing one more Fuel Storage, and negligible (all things considered) Structure costs.

Click to shrink...

I wanted to use the Oil Converter to throw the Mashiiir a bone. After all, its not going to be a fruitfull partnership if we barely use any of their stuff.

Plus, this is a battleship, so the more engines it has the higher chances that when a shot pens, it hits an engine and something goes boom. Better to keep their number at a minimum.

6) There's no need for the (cargo) Storage, that's 6k Lift that can be freed up without any problems.

Click to shrink...

Well the ammo has to go somewhere, doesn't it? Plus it can carry supplies like food and water for the crew of over 60 people. And 6k Lift is barely anything worth noting at this stage, its the equivalent of 3 Armor Plates.