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Crystalwatcher's Magical Girl Quest!

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Misread @Kellogo's post. Thought he was saying that because it'd add 100% damage every time it activated, it was an average of 100% increse. My mistake.
 
Double Cast working for the echos leads to some stupid things.

Consider: for each echo there are two equal outcomes, echo activates again or it doesn't. Once an echo fails the spell is resolved. Each duplication is expected to add less than 1 new echo. If the echos have double cast there are three outcomes, 25% chance of no echos, 50% chance of two echos, 25% chance of four echos. With double cast applying each duplication can be expected to result in 3 new echos (25% of 0 + 50% of 2 +25% of 4), each of which is also expected to add 3 echos.:eek:
 
kelllogo said:
Double Cast working for the echos leads to some stupid things.

Consider: for each echo there are two equal outcomes, echo activates again or it doesn't. Once an echo fails the spell is resolved. Each duplication is expected to add less than 1 new echo. If the echos have double cast there are three outcomes, 25% chance of no echos, 50% chance of two echos, 25% chance of four echos. With double cast applying each duplication can be expected to result in 3 new echos (25% of 0 + 50% of 2 +25% of 4), each of which is also expected to add 3 echos.:eek:
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And you can see why it gives me a headache.

And since crystal has demonstrated a lack of mathematical ability, I feared we'd take it, and then several thousand dice rolls later, unleashed a combined attack so powerful, it rips apart the very fabric of space and time, because there are more Celestial Severances inside that 50 metre space then there are particles in the universe.

And then Gaia and/or Cosmos kills us if we survive.
 
UberJJK said:
As for the mechanical relevance I'd put that mostly down to Nepgear having pretty slow speed until recently.
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*Flashback to when her flight was described as gently propelled by farts*
Gore17 said:
Of course, it's also possible that Echo activating also activates Double Cast, meaning that each time Echo works, 2 additional Celestial Severances are cast, each with a 50% chance of casting 2 more usages of the spell.
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Wait till Quadra Cast goes in.

Its one way to hit the insanely large numbers we've seen though.

And even if double cast isn't recursive, echo grows stronger for ever rider effect and probably gates a multifire mode.
 
kelllogo said:
Double Cast working for the echos leads to some stupid things.
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Indeed. Here is a demonstration of the three interpretations:

Double Cast has no effect on Echo:
Initial Attack
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +124 Dice = 1,724 Damage
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +124 Dice = 1,724 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 29
No Echo

Total Damage = 1,724 + 1724 = 3,448

Double Cast effects First Echo:
Initial Attack
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +166 Dice = 1,766 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 88
Echo Activates (Echo 1)

Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +166 Dice = 1,766 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 54
Echo Activates (Echo 2)

Echo 1
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +91 Dice = 1,691 Damage
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +91 Dice = 1,691 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 10
No Echo

Echo 2
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +85 Dice = 1,685 Damage
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +91 Dice = 1,685 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 21
No Echo

Total Damage = 1,766 + 1,766 + 1,691 + 1,691 + 1,685 + 1,685 = 10,284

Double Cast Effects All Echos
Initial Attack
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +43 Dice = 1,643 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 68
Echo Activates (Echo 1)

Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +43 Dice = 1,643 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 63
Echo Activates (Echo 2)

Echo 1

Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +129 Dice = 1,729 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 77
Echo Activates (Echo 3)

Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +129 Dice = 1,729 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 31
No Echo

Echo 2
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +131 Dice = 1,731 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 69
Echo Activates (Echo 4)

Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +131 Dice = 1,731 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 97
Echo Activates (Echo 5)

Echo 3
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +79 Dice = 1,679 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 19
No Echo

Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +79 Dice = 1,679 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 98
Echo Activates (Echo 6)

Echo 4
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +22 Dice = 1,622 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 85
Echo Activates (Echo 7)

Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +22 Dice = 1,622 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 73
Echo Activates (Echo 8)

Echo 5
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +151 Dice = 1,751 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 90
Echo Activates (Echo 9)

Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +151 Dice = 1,751 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 75
Echo Activates (Echo 10)

/Abort
/Abort
/Abort

As you can see the first two were relatively fine but the third spiraled up so first, 10 Echos by the time I reached Echo 5, I just had to stop. I actually whipped up a quick python script and did 20 test runs. I got:
  1. 2 Echos
  2. 7 Echos
  3. 0 Echos
  4. 5 Echos
  5. 4 Echos
  6. 0 Echos
  7. 2,353 Echos
  8. 21 Echos
  9. 0 Echos
  10. 3 Echos
  11. 21 Echos
  12. 6 Echos
  13. 0 Echos
  14. 179 Echos
  15. 2 Echos
  16. 0 Echos
  17. 9 Echos
  18. 0 Echos
  19. 5 Echos
  20. 1 Echos
As you can see it is mostly fine however you can get lucky/unlucky streaks with things like 21 echos (Twice!), 179 echos, or even 2,353 echos and not that is not a typo.

For reference 2,353 Echos each containing two Celestial Severances plus the initial two gives a rough Final Damage of around 7,942,396. Given that it's an unstoppable attack that is enough to take 22.7% of Gaia's Health. I'm pretty sure that would classify as an extinction level event.

As @kelllogo said each Echo has a 50% chance of generating 1 Echo, which sustains the endless Echo chain, 25% of generating 2 Echos, extends the endless Echo chain, and a 25% chance of generating 0 Echos, only thing that slows down the endless Echo chain. That means 75% of the time chain length will remain either constant or grow longer and only 25% of the time will it shrink, which can easily lead to run away effects.
 
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However, I notice the name is "Echo", and echoes fade. Perhaps each repetition is half the power of the previous one?

Because that would mean that the 10th Echo would only be doing 1 damage, and any further Echoes would be useless.
 
The 50% seems to point to the normal fading echo effect.
What happens with Double Cast is the Echo is picked up by a mike and turns into feedback.

Theres an alternative, where Double Cast generates two instances, which then can independently Echo, but the echoes do not generate further double casts.
 
veekie said:
Theres an alternative, where Double Cast generates two instances, which then can independently Echo, but the echoes do not generate further double casts.
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We're aware. Statistically, that would be +200% damage, which would combined with Dual-Cast for a time of 4 times the Base Damage.

Meaning it'd only become cost efficient at level 26.
 
veekie said:
Theres an alternative, where Double Cast generates two instances, which then can independently Echo, but the echoes do not generate further double casts.
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That would be the second scenario I listed:
UberJJK said:
Double Cast effects First Echo:
Initial Attack
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +166 Dice = 1,766 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 88
Echo Activates (Echo 1)

Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +166 Dice = 1,766 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 54
Echo Activates (Echo 2)

Echo 1
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +91 Dice = 1,691 Damage
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +91 Dice = 1,691 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 10
No Echo

Echo 2
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +85 Dice = 1,685 Damage
Celestial Severance: 1600 Base Damage, +91 Dice = 1,685 Damage
Echo: 1d100 = 21
No Echo

Total Damage = 1,766 + 1,766 + 1,691 + 1,691 + 1,685 + 1,685 = 10,284
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Gore17 said:
However, I notice the name is "Echo", and echoes fade. Perhaps each repetition is half the power of the previous one?

Because that would mean that the 10th Echo would only be doing 1 damage, and any further Echoes would be useless.
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If this is the case, when combined with "Double Cast Effects All Echoes", the maximum damage at our current level would be 33,664, not count the Magic Modifier, which would presumably be halved as well.

So a bit over 10 times the damage, at maximum.

As the base damage increases, the multiplier increases at well, with it being around 14.5 at level 10, for 743,424 base damage.

Note that this is maximum, and would require several thousand dice to all be successful.
 
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Gore17 said:
However, I notice the name is "Echo", and echoes fade. Perhaps each repetition is half the power of the previous one?

Because that would mean that the 10th Echo would only be doing 1 damage, and any further Echoes would be useless.
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This is certainly an interesting possible solution. Best of all it's something we're likely to see confirmed/denied in the next couple updates since Truth is with us and she might end up using one of her Hear/Speak/See No Evil spells all three of which have the Echo ability.

justinkal said:
Another important question is how does Resilience affect the Echos.
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You mean Base Resilience? It shouldn't since Celestial Severance has the Unstoppable ability and if that wasn't applied to it's Echos then Celestial Severance : Echo would be a pretty useless purchase.
 
Stepping away from the Echo discussion for a minute. I've been wondering just how much XP Judgement Core has picked up in her months as an independent. Well there is a simple, if time consuming, way to tell: count up all her abilities/levels/ect and work out the total XP cost.

The Judge Cannon:
Level 11
10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50 + 60 + 70 + 80 + 90 + 100 = 550xp

End Game:
Level 10
10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50 + 60 + 70 + 80 + 90 = 450xp

Flight (Boosted):
Level 7
10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50 + 60 = 210xp
Flight Boost Upgrade

25xp

Armored Core: Steel:
Level 15
10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50 + 60 + 70 + 80 + 90 + 100 + 110 +120 + 130 + 140 = 1,050xp
Purchase
100xp
Upgrade Iron -> Steel
150xp

Core Containment:
Level 9
10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50 + 60 + 70 + 80 = 360xp
Purchase
75xp

Total = 550 + 450 + 210 + 25 + 1,050 + 100 + 150 + 360 + 75 = 2,970xp

So from what we know of her abilities Judgement Core has likely racked up at least 2,970xp.

For comparison's sake Nepgear has earned the following:
Purifier Beam
Level 10
10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50 + 60 + 70 + 80 + 90 = 450xp
Beam Extension Upgrade
50xp

Celestial Severance
Level 6
10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50 = 150xp

Starshine:
Level 2
10xp

Flight (Boosted):
Level 5
10 + 20 + 30 + 40 = 100xp
Boosted Flight Upgrade
25xp

Armored Core: Adamantium:
Level 5
10 + 20 + 30 + 40 = 100xp
Purchase
100xp
Upgrade Iron -> Steel
150xp
Upgrade Steel -> Mythril

200xp
Upgrade Mythril -> Adamantium
250xp

Core Containment:
Level 7
10 + 20 + 30 + 40 + 50 + 60 = 210
Purchase
75xp

Core Purge:
Purchase
50xp

No Longer Human:

Purchase
150xp

Reequip: CORE CONNECTION
Purchase
500xp

Available xp = 201xp

Total = 450 + 50 + 150 + 10 + 100 + 25 + 100 + 100 + 150 + 200 + 250 + 210 + 75 + 50 + 150 + 500 + 201 = 2,771xp
which comes to a total of 2,771xp. That means despite only having been a Magical Girl for thirteen days Nepgear is only 199xp behind Judgement Core. Or at least what Nepgear knows Judgement Core has.

That we're even in the same league though despite Judgement Core being active twice as long as Nepgear, about four weeks to her two, says a lot about how many bullshit situations poor Nepgear has been in.
 
UberJJK said:
You mean Base Resilience? It shouldn't since Celestial Severance has the Unstoppable ability and if that wasn't applied to it's Echos then Celestial Severance : Echo would be a pretty useless purchase.
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I meant any form of damage reduction to be honest (and it would be foolish to think that Unstoppable can overcome every defense out there).

What I meant is that the calculations are significantly dependent on whether the damage of the Echos is based on the base damage or the final damage of the primary attack, especially if the damage of each echo is a percentage of the damage of the source attack.

For example, if the Echos are analogous to the aftershocks of an earthquake (except with the vibrations being inside the target's body), the Echo damage is probably a percentage of the final damage of the initial attack.

As an example of what I'm talking about, how do you think the Echos would interact with things such as Red Rose's "To Stand Amongst Gods" ability?
 
Gore17 said:
We know she's a Magical Girl, but we don't know her MG name.
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Why does she get to have a big sister? In order to see ours, we've got to make a good four dimensional hops away from the front lines, and then get through the ridiculously stringent entry procedures enforced by the celestial bureaucracy to prevent tourists from crowding people's eternal rewards. Because she's dead. And the place we're visiting is Heaven.

Stupid Judgement Core and her stupid, living sister...
 
chocolote12 said:
Why does she get to have a big sister? In order to see ours, we've got to make a good four dimensional hops away from the front lines, and then get through the ridiculously stringent entry procedures enforced by the celestial bureaucracy to prevent tourists from crowding people's eternal rewards. Because she's dead. And the place we're visiting is Heaven.

Stupid Judgement Core and her stupid, living sister...
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We could go to Goddess Red, though we would have to join the Unified Darkness for that to happen.
 
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Mannan said:
Yeah. The would have worked, if only it wasn't the unified Dark who killed our sister.
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Solid Core is fighting the Unified Darkness for the noblest reasons.

Revenge! With a Vengeance!

Yes, she's also fighting to protect her friends and to defend the weak and innocent from them, but she only met her friends after joining the war, and the ones she had before becoming a Magical Girl were kind of slaughtered by the UD, and guess what is threatening the weak and the innocents?

So yeah, Nepgear is technically fighting for revenge, even if that's really a tertiary "it'd be nice to do that eventually" goal, compared to surviving and making sure our friend stay alive.
 
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