Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest
- Thread starter Oshha
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Australia
Mystic hero actually.
Double settlements + double shrines + double trails isn't exactly cheap.
On the upside, we now have a base Mystic pool of 4, and the Priests are now adding their faction power to Mystic instead of Stability/Legitimacy.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A Mystic Hero with Good Martial.
Doesn't particularly matter. The Arthwyd care about the community first and foremost and are indifferent to any family structures provided they don't get in the way of the community.
Yes.
- Location
- Australia
I wouldn't really call that an upside. The options that eat Mystic are rarely taken and only take up a little, but the stability and legitimacy rolls can be important, especially given all the stability rolls we take from our constant influx of refugees.
- Location
- United States
To be fair, options that eat Mystic were only so rarely taken because we had so little of it to spend. With our boosted Mystic we can now take Main megaproject actions, which is the most efficient way to complete them, without needing to take an accompanying Mystic boosting action. So now things like the Temple, Sacred Forest, and Stone Wall can be potentially knocked out in a single turn.
- Location
- Australia
Speaking of which, I think Census should be the next megaproject we should take. We've been getting hints from the Heroic Admin that it's becoming increasingly important, and if I had to guess it's the most likely thing to avoid a crisis. Alternatively, we could go for a Temple first to create a big central administrative place like in Sumer.
True enough on the Stability/Legitimacy.
We've just unlocked the ability to truly start rush building things like the Sacred Forest, Stone Wall or Temple.
@Raichu1972 beat me here.
Anyway, with our Hero unit probably pushing somewhere North of sixty winters(this being her fourth update), she probably won't last much longer than the current crisis. Unless a new hero spawns or we get another divine blessing that extends the average lifespan of our people, we'll probably regain control over our actions soon enough.
Either of them would probably help anchor our Legitimacy and/or Stability.
The Census is the brainchild of our current Admin heroine though, so it's fairly natural that she'd consider it important.
Although we haven't seen the costs of the Census yet. It might be heavier on Mystic than other megaprojects due to it being an administrative feat. In which case we might want to either do another megaproject(or some more settlements) first.
Temple could be good given that the Merntir might go for it if we don't.
Also, the generations of sustained Lowlands issues(and non-destruction of the Caradysh) might put our factions in the mood for the Stone Wall again(and to play Devil's advocate, it would concentrate more military potential into the capital, which could help us maintain centralized control).
I have little argument for Sacred Forest beyond it being a non-faction-specific project that might affect a hidden stat(sustainable wood supply) and might help against the Caradysh. Also the 1/??? progress we currently have on the thing.
- Location
- Australia
Pretty sure the Census wouldn't do anything for legitimacy or stability. That's not what it's about.
We shouldn't disregard her expertise just because she has a bias there. If she thinks it's important for handling our civilisation's fast growing population, then it very likely is.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
It probably helps stability at least indirectly.
We're a palace economy. Knowing where people are is kinda essential to probably balance the redistributive elements of our economy.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Serwyn is sixty nine and the majority of Arthwyd die in their seventies or eighties.
- Location
- Australia
I think the most that you can say about Census' ability to affect the Stability stat is in regards to refugee distribution. Everything else is a stretch at best, and not worth trying to link an effect.
Last edited:
It's a grand undertaking of centralized administration.
Unlike physical works, its existence hinges on a centralized administration to work it. And both the administration(and the people it administers) get to enjoy(and suffer) from it as long as the central administration continues to exist.
If the Census is a net positive for the people? It should legitimize the reigning government. Which means it should help legitimacy.
As for the stability? Having an accurate headcount per settlement would allow those in charge to more accurately predict the people's needs for things like shelter, food or priests, allowing for a more harmonious society.
Just because you personally don't understand how it might have an effect doesn't mean there can't be any.
- Location
- Australia
I just think your perception of the Stability and Legitimacy stats are skewed and that you don't fully understand how and why they go up and down. For example, you think that it'd increase Stability just by being a net positive, which is patently ludicrous given the vast amount of net positive options available to us, of which only one increases Stability. Think on that, think why Venerate gives Stability and why no other action does, then think if Census is more like Venerate or more like one of the actions that are good for the Arthwyd but don't boost Stability.
I did not say that it would increase stability just by being a net positive. I said that it would allow for a more harmonious society by allowing our central government to more easily address the needs of the people. Because the improved ability of the government to ameliorate the struggles of the people means society has less small-scale disruptions - particularly when it comes to shortages in services and supplies.
But speaking of Venerate? I suppose that one of the benefits of an accurate census is that the resource needs of planned (local) cultural events would be better translated and accounted for by the central administration, which might inspire more people to make use of the Trails between the villages(the next village over is planning to celebrate something, good time to mingle). I suppose that can be another reason for why a Census could provide a bonus to Stability rolls.
- Location
- Australia
Right, sorry, got the Legitimacy and Stability arguments mixed up. Anyway, let me explain why I think Census won't have any real effect on Legitimacy or Stability.
I'll start by saying that Legitimacy is a measure of just how much our people think that there should be a cadlon, or that the person who is cadlon should be. That's not improved by providing net positives to the people, which is why none of the actions provide legitimacy and why Census wouldn't either. Doing net positives is something that's baseline expected of any government. Legitimacy is gained through big and flashy things like a pan-civilisation propaganda campaign, winning big wars, or divine intervention, stuff like that. The civilisation running a little smoother doesn't fit that. The Census isn't flashy enough for the people to go "Wow thank the heavens that cadlons exist to tell us what to do and tax us!"
Stability is partly how smooth everything's running and partly how happy everyone is. The Census is, far and away before anything else, an improvement to our ability to tax people and control resources, so it's gonna make everyone unhappy. (Irrational but hey, that's people.) It'd help with day to day running, but not exactly the kind of thing that'd affect Stability in any significant way. Doesn't affect crime rates, doesn't significantly affect corruption, etc. The only place the Census would have a significant effect on Stability via smooth running is when we get refugees, because the day to day disruption they cause is both significant and directly countered by the Census.
Last edited:
To begin, a nitpick in that Legitimacy is not just the Cadlon but rather the Cadlon's regime as a whole. That means legitimacy represents the people's trust in the very system responsible for the redistribution of resources. A way of saying "I like the way in which things are being run right now."
Yes, the Census means more efficient taxation. At our current tech level? This means the tax burden can be spread more evenly(and therefore more justly) due to actual stats replacing assumptions about how large a settlement is(and how large its tax burden ought to be).
Equally, it means government handouts in terms of equipment, food and shelter will better reflect the situation on the ground. It means the children will receive their food stamps on time. It means a village heavy on farmers but low on industry might pay their taxes with more food but less equipment(while receiving less redundant food but more farming equipment). It means a flagging birthrate can be supplemented with migration(which opens the door to helping aspiring artisans find teachers in nearby settlements or directing those who completed their apprenticeship to settlements in need of their skills).
Fewer frustrations from tax, more happiness from subsidies.
This is what happens when a government actually acts in the interests of its citizens(and when it is responsive to their wants).
And the people running this bureaucracy? The ones who are the middle management telling the people what to and collecting taxes so that their taxes might benefit the greater community? Are/Were the priests.
A more efficient (benevolent) government doesn't mean a big flashy +1 à la Venerate. Rather, a more efficient (benevolent) government means a bonus to Legitimacy and Stability rolls the way our Priest faction used to work.
Because the non-flashy background stuff that doesn't warrant a full +1 or -1 to Legitimacy(or Stability) but does affect the people's day-to-day lives is exactly the sort of thing that gets affected by a smoother running palace economy.
Thus, Census can anchor our Legitimacy/Stability. In more ways than just refugees.
This does not directly reduce corruption or crime rates in a major way, sure. But having knowledge of who lives where does open the door for rooting out bad actors, especially with stuff like Communal Mandate.
10ebbor10
DON'T PANIC
- Location
- Present
We can look at past implementations of the Census. This is what it looked like in POC.
The Arthwyd are not the Ymaryn.
In the case of the Ymaryn, the max safe martial was the result of their conscription-based military(the Arthwyd have Sacred Warriors instead).
And the passive policy:
was the result of a vote on how the Census expressed itself further.
Likewise, where the Ymaryn were obsessed with land cultivation, the Arthwyd have had a hard-on for human rights(particularly the rights of The People). They probably have fairly different ideas about what a disaster looks like.
The Arthwyd probably would not decide to use the Census data to do the same things as this completely different civ did.
NoxOfUmbra
Shadow of the night
- Location
- Colombia, South América
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Mmm, can we have an actualized map of the known world? How far are we from finishing a province? I would also want to define what our priorities with the Megaproject side is at the moment, are we ready to start to build megaprojects fast or are we going to do it slowly while we do other things at the same time?
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Check the informational threadmark. The Arthwyd haven't explored any new lands so while the political situation is no longer correct on the map, the map itself shows the known world and you figure out who controls where based on the info in the updates ans if you can't, then the Arthwyd lack that information.
Greenbay (7/15), Rockbay (3.5/15), Eastern Rock River (0/15), Western Rock River (0/15), Sunrise Bay (3/15), Northern Sunset Plains (0/15), North-West Sunrise Plains (0/15),
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Vote is closed.
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 18 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 441-471]
##### NetTally 2.2.0
Task: Boon
[X][Boon] Arthryn makes the Blessing of Arthryn gainable outside of birth.
No. of Votes: 9
[X][Boon] The Goddesses gift the Arthwyd with wisdom.
No. of Votes: 6
[X][Boon] The Goddesses gift the Arthwyd with knowledge.
No. of Votes: 5
[X][Boon] Ymarn grants her Blessing to the Arthwyd.
No. of Votes: 5
[X][Boon] Arthryn upgrades the Blessing of Arthryn.
No. of Votes: 4
[X][Boon] Evalyn grants her Blessing to the Arthwyd.
No. of Votes: 2
[X][Boon] Wyrn grants her Blessing to the Arthwyd.
No. of Votes: 2
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: War
[X][War] The Arthwyd focus on the True Zaradysh.
No. of Votes: 16
[X][War] The Arthwyd split their attention between the two.
No. of Votes: 2
[X][War] The Arthwyd focus on the Traditionalists.
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 18
Vote Tally : Chronicles of Nations Redux - Civ Quest Original | Page 18 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 441-471]
##### NetTally 2.2.0
Task: Boon
[X][Boon] Arthryn makes the Blessing of Arthryn gainable outside of birth.
No. of Votes: 9
[X] Random Member
[X] Andres110
[X] HanEmpire
[X] jamie96969
[X] nat_401
[X] Raichu1972
[X] sam5447
[X] taovkool
[X] UlseDovThur
[X] Andres110
[X] HanEmpire
[X] jamie96969
[X] nat_401
[X] Raichu1972
[X] sam5447
[X] taovkool
[X] UlseDovThur
[X][Boon] The Goddesses gift the Arthwyd with wisdom.
No. of Votes: 6
[X][Boon] The Goddesses gift the Arthwyd with knowledge.
No. of Votes: 5
[X][Boon] Ymarn grants her Blessing to the Arthwyd.
No. of Votes: 5
[X][Boon] Arthryn upgrades the Blessing of Arthryn.
No. of Votes: 4
[X][Boon] Evalyn grants her Blessing to the Arthwyd.
No. of Votes: 2
[X][Boon] Wyrn grants her Blessing to the Arthwyd.
No. of Votes: 2
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: War
[X][War] The Arthwyd focus on the True Zaradysh.
No. of Votes: 16
[X] HanEmpire
[X] 10ebbor10
[X] Andres110
[X] Chrestomanci
[X] demonthese2211
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] jamie96969
[X] nat_401
[X] NoxOfUmbra
[X] PurposefulZephyr
[X] Qeqre
[X] Raichu1972
[X] sam5447
[X] taovkool
[X] UlseDovThur
[X] veekie
[X] 10ebbor10
[X] Andres110
[X] Chrestomanci
[X] demonthese2211
[X] Donkey Hote
[X] jamie96969
[X] nat_401
[X] NoxOfUmbra
[X] PurposefulZephyr
[X] Qeqre
[X] Raichu1972
[X] sam5447
[X] taovkool
[X] UlseDovThur
[X] veekie
[X][War] The Arthwyd split their attention between the two.
No. of Votes: 2
[X][War] The Arthwyd focus on the Traditionalists.
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Random Member
Total No. of Voters: 18
- Location
- Australia
It's a grand relief to see that this won.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
In case anyone might be interested, @10ebbor10 has started a new civ quest: Shards of Wisdom : A Civ Quest
- Location
- Australia
@Oshha, why do the Arthwyd think it's good to have lots of children? Like, internally. What are the justifications they supply?
Also, does having a higher population increase the chances that we get a hero?
EDIT: Since our military is made up of priestly elites, shouldn't Main Train Sacred Warriors be -1 permanent Mystic instead of -1 permanent Econ? We're not taking away a significant number of farmers away from their duties, but we are diverting a number of priests-in-training from a civilian career into a military one. One way I see it is if we can turn a bunch of farmers into warrior priests, then we could probably turn a bunch of farmers into civilian priests too, increasing our permanent Mystic at the cost of permanent Econ, but we don't have that option.
Also, does having a higher population increase the chances that we get a hero?
EDIT: Since our military is made up of priestly elites, shouldn't Main Train Sacred Warriors be -1 permanent Mystic instead of -1 permanent Econ? We're not taking away a significant number of farmers away from their duties, but we are diverting a number of priests-in-training from a civilian career into a military one. One way I see it is if we can turn a bunch of farmers into warrior priests, then we could probably turn a bunch of farmers into civilian priests too, increasing our permanent Mystic at the cost of permanent Econ, but we don't have that option.
Last edited: