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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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Dirtnap said:
Or since WoG says scrapping is like them passing in their sleep...its like them passing in their sleep.
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Hopefully, WoG will also recognize that the in-universe views of the people who are trying to make sense of this new phenomena are probably going to differ radically from his and the spirits view.

Also: when are you going to update Taffy-3?

Tabasco said:
This way lies madness, gentlemen.

And small fortunes in legal fees in story.
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This guy gets it.
 
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Can a spirit be transferred to a totally new ship if they incorporate a part of the old one? Clearly they don't die during upgrades, after all, even if critical systems are changed.
 
Didn't Skywalker say that he thought that inherited artifacts/ship parts aren't enough to justify rebirth in his model of shipgirls? Like there was this whole thing on how CVN-65 wasn't CV-6 just because of her portholes and how a ship spirit's status as a spritual entity gives her hull life based on perception of being the same ship rather than actual physicality?
Also, you may be overestimating the ship of Theseus issue; even USS Constitution is apparently 60% original or something and she is both wooden and several hundred years old.
 
Reading through Massie's Dreadnought, I found a small snippet that would be of interest here:

Article:
At dinner one night at Osborne House, the Queen entertained a famous admiral whose hearing was impaired. Politely, Victoria had asked about hi fleet and its activities; then, shifting the subject, she asked about the admiral's sister, an elderly dowager of awesome dignity. The admiral thought she was inquiring about his flagship, which was in need of overhaul. "Well, ma'am," he said, "as soon as I get back I'm going to have her hauled out, roll her on her side and have the barnacles scraped off her bottom." Victoria stared at him for a second and then, for minutes afterward, the dining room shook with her unstoppable peals of laughter
Source: Dreadnought


I wonder how the admiral's flagship felt about that exchange afterwards? :p
 
I hate the idea that a handful of insignificant- in the greater scheme of things -parts is enough to give totally different ships the same spirit. To use the, ugh, Enterprise example again...

CV-6 and CVN-65 are completely different ships. They only share being carriers and Enterprises. And a handful of pieces, but even if every last piece of 6 was used, that's at most 30k or so out of 100k or so tons. A third. To me, it's just...not enough. I genuinely feel each and every ship is unique, and should be treated as such. Little E is Little E, Nuke E is Nuke E. I just can't see a reason why they need to be the same ship, when they are different girls. I much prefer the idea that Nuke E is Little E's daughter, honestly.

Treat each ship as unique, because each ship is unique. Just like each person is unique.

The one exception to this that I can think of off the top of my head, are Cassin and Downes. Why? These are the destroyers you see burnt out in front of Pennsy at Pearl Harbor. Both were ruined by the fire and explosions, to the point their hulls weren't fixable. However, their machinery was. So what does the USN do? Drag it out and build entirely new hulls around them, and give the new hulls the same name and number.

This is what I consider an exception, because these girls are treated for all intents and purposes as the same ship. Number. Class. Same ship. This is clearly different from sticking pieces of a ship into a completely different ship though. This is someone, for all intents and purposes, rebuilding the same ship from the ground up.

In other words, this could be considered reincarnation in the sense that the spirits follow their machinery to the new-built hull. Or, it could be the sci-fi idea of sticking a healthy brain, heart, and lungs into a new body.

At any rate, since I would really like to not have to argue this yet again, WoG for my stories (Destiny, Indy, TKA, it doesn't matter) is simple:

Outside the very very specific case of ships like Cassin and Downes, there will be no transferring spirits in my stories.


(Also, to answer the other part of the first post on this:

Mr Zoat said:
Clearly they don't die during upgrades, after all, even if critical systems are changed.
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Taigei. Totally rebuilt from the ground up to upgrade her from a submarine (not seaplane like the other conversions) tender to a carrier. Just because a ship is hilariously upgraded and changed in the process, doesn't mean they're a new ship.)
 
Skywalker_T-65 said:
The one exception to this that I can think of off the top of my head, are Cassin and Downes. Why? These are the destroyers you see burnt out in front of Pennsy at Pearl Harbor. Both were ruined by the fire and explosions, to the point their hulls weren't fixable. However, their machinery was. So what does the USN do? Drag it out and build entirely new hulls around them, and give the new hulls the same name and number.

This is what I consider an exception, because these girls are treated for all intents and purposes as the same ship. Number. Class. Same ship. This is clearly different from sticking pieces of a ship into a completely different ship though. This is someone, for all intents and purposes, rebuilding the same ship from the ground up.

In other words, this could be considered reincarnation in the sense that the spirits follow their machinery to the new-built hull. Or, it could be the sci-fi idea of sticking a healthy brain, heart, and lungs into a new body.
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Actually, I more see it as reconstructive surgery, myself – like the girls were horrifically scarred by the fires, and replacing out their hulls like that, akin to skin graft operations over nearly all of their bodies.
 
Where were the other battleships during Pearl Harbor in OTL? Here is a WIP list I hurriedly made:

Utah was at Pearl Harbor.
Wyoming was crusing off Bath, Maine, late December 7.
Arkansas was anchored nearby at Casco Bay, Maine.
New York was in the dockyarks doing a refit.
Texas was also at Casco Bay, Maine.
Both Nevada and Oklahoma were at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii on December 7, 1941.
Both Pennysylvania and Arizona were also present at Pearl.
New Mexico was crossing the Atlantic heading for Hampton Roads, Virginia.
Mississippi was based at Hvalfjordur, Iceland.
Idaho was also based at Hvalfjordur.
Both Tennessee and California were at Pearl.
Colorado was at Puget Sound Navy Yard in Washington being overhauled.
Maryland and Vest Virginia were both present at Pearl.
North Carolina and Washington was in the Atlantic, guarding against the Tirpitz.
South Dakota, Indiana, Massachusetts and Alabama were still being built.
All 6 Iowa sisters were still being built.

Did I miss anything?
 
From SB, I posted this idea.

Around this time, Utah was being used for gunnery trials, particularly AA guns. Now, at around this time, the Americans became familiar with the 40 mm bofors thanks to Dutch examples aboard refugee ships. Now, it shouldn't be too hard to say get Utah a number of Bofors mounts, in various configurations, for evaluation. Then, if Pearl Harbour occurs, the IJN will get a nasty surprise of AA dakka.
 
mikelima777 said:
From SB, I posted this idea.

Around this time, Utah was being used for gunnery trials, particularly AA guns. Now, at around this time, the Americans became familiar with the 40 mm bofors thanks to Dutch examples aboard refugee ships. Now, it shouldn't be too hard to say get Utah a number of Bofors mounts, in various configurations, for evaluation. Then, if Pearl Harbour occurs, the IJN will get a nasty surprise of AA dakka.
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First samples from the Bofors came to the US in September 1940, but there were some problems with the early production run, so Its not probable that the Navy gets many of them for practical trials, especially since it might clash with BuOrd who right now is not in good terms with the current leadership of Pearl.
 
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Skywalker_T-65 said:
I hate the idea that a handful of insignificant- in the greater scheme of things -parts is enough to give totally different ships the same spirit. To use the, ugh, Enterprise example again...

CV-6 and CVN-65 are completely different ships. They only share being carriers and Enterprises. And a handful of pieces, but even if every last piece of 6 was used, that's at most 30k or so out of 100k or so tons. A third. To me, it's just...not enough. I genuinely feel each and every ship is unique, and should be treated as such. Little E is Little E, Nuke E is Nuke E. I just can't see a reason why they need to be the same ship, when they are different girls. I much prefer the idea that Nuke E is Little E's daughter, honestly.

Treat each ship as unique, because each ship is unique. Just like each person is unique.
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My reasoning is explained in the linked post but they have far more in common than a name and a general classification.
 
Nicholas said:
Perhaps rusting away is akin to dying and being buried, whereas scrapping is akin to dying as an organ donor, and having your body parts harvested for medicine/science.
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I'd say rusting away is like dying of starvation or lack of exercise (the connection being an extreme lack of basic upkeep), while scrapping is like the combination of declaring yourself an organ donor and opting for doctor-assisted death. The ship's end analogous to simple old age would be...lasting so long that a critical, irreplaceable part suddenly fails, causing the ship to sink. Like if the keel just broke after untold decades of cumulative wear and tear.

The analogy is complicated by the fact that the proportional amount of time a ship could theoretically be kept "alive" beyond its operationally useful life is much higher than that of a human, so in many cases it would be more accurate to say that scrapping is like being an organ donor and opting for doctor-assisted death even though you could live much longer, but you don't want to bankrupt your family with medical bills. And that's if the ship's spirit was totally okay with it. Otherwise, it would be like your family choosing organ donation and doctor-assisted death for you, regardless of your own wishes, because they don't want to bankrupt themselves with medical bills.

...Sorry, that got kind of dark. :(
 
Adamantium9001 said:
I'd say rusting away is like dying of starvation or lack of exercise (the connection being an extreme lack of basic upkeep), while scrapping is like the combination of declaring yourself an organ donor and opting for doctor-assisted death. The ship's end analogous to simple old age would be...lasting so long that a critical, irreplaceable part suddenly fails, causing the ship to sink. Like if the keel just broke after untold decades of cumulative wear and tear.

The analogy is complicated by the fact that the proportional amount of time a ship could theoretically be kept "alive" beyond its operationally useful life is much higher than that of a human, so in many cases it would be more accurate to say that scrapping is like being an organ donor and opting for doctor-assisted death even though you could live much longer, but you don't want to bankrupt your family with medical bills. And that's if the ship's spirit was totally okay with it. Otherwise, it would be like your family choosing organ donation and doctor-assisted death for you, regardless of your own wishes, because they don't want to bankrupt themselves with medical bills.

...Sorry, that got kind of dark. :(
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Except all ships are okay with serving the purpose they were assigned, and wildly patriotic to boot. It's not murder, or even their last full measure of devotion, they've just reached the point where it's no longer sustainable to keep them alive. Humans reach it too: it's when you die because you can't afford to get that new organ transplant that costs more than your entire family combined. They don't begrudge people for not keeping them alive longer (although they would probably prefer to keep living, assuming that they're in good repair), they're thankful that they got to live in the first place.

You know, like normal good people.

Otherwise they'd be extremely unhappy, like normal normal people, and then the heavens would open and a flood of sads would wash us all into the ocean to join them. :sad:
 
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Omake: Friscotime
  • Sidestory
    • A little omake on everyone's favorite Nesei shipgirl!
    Friscotime
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -    ​

    USS San Fransisco—or as her crew called her 'Frisco'—stood on the bow of her own hull and let the warm Hawaiian air stream through her jet black hair. She wanted to be overjoyed. She was going to The Admiral's port. The Admiral who's name was spoken of in giddy whisperers passed around by shipgirls gossiping at their piers. The Admiral who not only treated his ships well, but who saw them. Talked with them, even—if the rumors were true—loved them.

    Part of Frisco couldn't wait to see if the rumors were true. She wanted to introduce herself to The Speaking Admiral. She wanted to let him see her the way she really was, let him talk to her like she was a real person. Hell, she'd be happy just having someone to listen—really listen to. She couldn't imagine what it'd be like to talk to her crew, not just at them.

    But part of her—most of her, really—hoped desperately that The Admiral wouldn't drop by. At least not for a while.

    The cruiser wrung her ratty neckerchief in her hands. Her clothes were rumpled and stank from months of wear. Her neckerchief was stained though thoroughly with oil and paint the cruiser wasn't entirely sure what color it supposed to be any more.

    She glanced over her shoulder at the sailors assembling along her rails. They looked so smart in those crisp uniforms, nothing like… well… Frisco scowled as she glanced down at the ragged hem of her top, her.

    "I look good enough, right?" The cruiser smiled at one particularly handsome machinst's mate. She balanced her hands on her hips and put on the best smile her grubby face could manage.

    For a second—just the briefest sliver of a second—she thought she saw a smile pass over the sailor's face, followed by a tiny wink. But no… no, it was just a stray gust of wind blowing in his face.

    Frisco scowled, and promptly had her own hair blown into her face. "Well," Frisco tossed her hair back.

    Or at least tried too. At this point, she was pretty sure she had more tangles and split ends than she had actual hair. It took her almost a solid minute of furious combat before her hair finally started to behave. She was suddenly very glad none of her crew could see her.

    "I mean…" Frisco brushed one last strand of hair behind her ear. Her smooth Asian features glistened in a smile as she rested her arm against her own rail. "You all look smart enough for the lot of us, huh?"

    The sailor didn't even blink this time.

    "Thanks," Frisco lifted herself up on her toes and brought her lips close to the sailor's chiseled face. She couldn't actually kiss him after all. Even if she tried to lay her lips on his face, she'd just pass though him like a ghost. But a girl could always pretend after all.

    It wasn't like she was suddenly going to be come visible just at the moment of maximum embarrassment. Right?

    Frisco made a show of puckering up. She closed her eyes and kicked one leg up as she leaned in to the kiss. She couldn't make this more romantic—or more potentially embarrassing if she tried.

    The cruiser held the kiss for almost a second before slowly opening her eyes. Not one of the assembled sailors even glanced at her. Darnit.

    Whatever, she could come up with more plans latter. After all, she was going to Pearl. If anyone knew how to get their admiral's attention, it'd be Sara and Enterprise.

    "Don't go anywhere without me, okay?" Frisco cast one last longing look at her machinsts' mate before bolting for her own mast. She closed her eyes and and let her… memory, for lack of a better word, guide her up the ladders and around crewmen standing watch.

    Up the tripod she clambered, her hair streaming behind her like a shimmering, chaotic wake. She didn't stop moving until she was at the very top of her own mast.

    And then she smiled. Pearl sprawled before her like a gem in the pacific. It was so… so… so full of life! She could just see the tiny dots of cars driving along the coastal roads.

    She smiled as she passed a half-dozen destroyers napping in a puddle next to their beleaguered tender. Frisco tossed a happy wave, which the tender returned before going back to her duty of looking after her sleepy charges.

    Everywhere Frisco looked, there was something new and exciting. The great battleship fleet lay at anchor off Battleship row. Frisco beamed as she saw the girls strolling along their hulls. They looked so prim and proper in their dresses! So ladylike!

    And then…

    Then there was her. The Admiral's ship. The ship she'd come so far to see.

    Saratoga

    Frisco was so excited she almost fell off her own mast. But she didn't. Because that would be silly. She just... enthusiastically... jumped off. Yeah. That.
     
  • Sidestory
    • Skywalker_T-65 said:
    Outside the very very specific case of ships like Cassin and Downes, there will be no transferring spirits in my stories.
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    I think you put too much importance on raw mass in matters spiritual and magical. But on reflection, the parts transferred between Enterprises would be more along the lines of heirloom jewelry than anything of major importance.

    To really work something like a soul transfer, I'd say you would need much more "symbolic weight" behind it. Things that truly mark the heart and soul of a ship.

    As far as I know, those sorts of things usually end up being given away or otherwise used in memorials, museums, etc.

    Really, it's the kind of thing experimental-minded people might try if they already knew about and could detect ship spirits, and even then folks in authority would likely put the kibosh on it for being more than a little bit like necromancy.
     
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