Changing Destiny (Kancolle)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
Crusader Jerome
Subsisting on Supplication
- Location
- My home away from Rome
Gneisenau, Royal Oak, and Turbine were mentioned this chapter.
FailLord
2050 lb bombs?
- Location
- very high up
There is also SMS Derfflinger(?) and the armored cruiser that I can't remember the name of from the side story in the Philippines
Sandy River DL
(Verified Destroyer Leader)
- Location
- Lake Michigan
- Pronouns
- Her/She
Rochester, formerly New York. ACR-02. Poor girl who's stuck dealing with MacArthur.
- Location
- Pacific NW
And it's the former flagship of Franz Hipper, SMS Seydlitz. One of Sky's other waifus.
- Location
- America
Wait, which side story is this from? Because I am quite intrigued.
Crusader Jerome
Subsisting on Supplication
- Location
- My home away from Rome
Holding the Line (also by Sky). It follows the Changing Destiny-timeline Force Z's exploits in the South Pacific/East Indian oceans, such as they are (it's at five chapters).
- Location
- Europe
@Skywalker_T-65, does this thus mean the Gatling is now entering the game as well?
Is the G3 class going to be constructed, by change?
And what about proper suppliers?
Are they going to be a thing?
Can we expect updated Tillman class hulls, if completely redesigned for other tasks?
Or is it going to be a partly done job, there and thus not great or reallly quite that bad?
Will the fuel-air bomb become a thing, before the nuke can wreck the metal from then on, with a radiation signature?
Are the auxiliary drydocks going to get their own powerplants and thus truely becoming mobile?
en.m.wikipedia.org
en.m.wikipedia.org
And what about Well-docks for waterplane recovery tasks?
en.m.wikipedia.org
Is the G3 class going to be constructed, by change?
And what about proper suppliers?
Are they going to be a thing?
Can we expect updated Tillman class hulls, if completely redesigned for other tasks?
Or is it going to be a partly done job, there and thus not great or reallly quite that bad?
Will the fuel-air bomb become a thing, before the nuke can wreck the metal from then on, with a radiation signature?
Are the auxiliary drydocks going to get their own powerplants and thus truely becoming mobile?
Auxiliary floating drydock - Wikipedia
Auxiliary repair dock - Wikipedia
And what about Well-docks for waterplane recovery tasks?
Well dock - Wikipedia
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I don't think they can be at this point. Britain doesn't have any available 16 inch guns put on them, and by the time any new ones will be ready the war will already be over.
CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
Vianca, don't do this again. Your ideas for tech developments have invariably been asinine and driven by Rule of Cool over any practicality.@Skywalker_T-65, does this thus mean the Gatling is now entering the game as well?
Is the G3 class going to be constructed, by change?
And what about proper suppliers?
Are they going to be a thing?
Can we expect updated Tillman class hulls, if completely redesigned for other tasks?
Or is it going to be a partly done job, there and thus not great or reallly quite that bad?
Will the fuel-air bomb become a thing, before the nuke can wreck the metal from then on, with a radiation signature?
Are the auxiliary drydocks going to get their own powerplants and thus truely becoming mobile?
Auxiliary floating drydock - Wikipedia
Auxiliary repair dock - Wikipedia
And what about Well-docks for waterplane recovery tasks?
Well dock - Wikipedia
So the answer is no, none of this. Now do us all a favor and shut up.
SKsniper128
22050 kg of ordinance per minute
It's kinda fun to pick it apart. But yes please stop trying to push Thompson as a technology uplifter. It was even mentioned in the chapter that he has difficulty even with small things like a direct impingement gas system for a rifle, much less full on naval systems, the dude isn't an engineer.
Also do you really expect Thompson, not just a carrier enthusiast but the Aircraft Carrier Admiral, to push for obsolete large surface combat ships when he knows carriers and air doctrine will dominate warfare for the next century?
I doubt it, rotary cannons like the M61 require massive amounts of ammunition to feed and electrical power for the motor that drives the barrels. Not to mention they are large, very very large in comparison to existing 20, 30 and even 40mm autocannons. No existing aircraft bar medium and heavy bombers can feasibly lift both the gun and the ammunition and are structurally sound enough to not shake themselves apart trying to fire it. Good luck trying to make an AA mount out of it too, properly motorized mountings only started coming into service for medium/heavy AA on the Des Moines class late war with their Radar assisted 3" guns. Also there's the logistical issue of feeding ammunition to a weapon that fires at 6000rpm, remember era before proper automation, everything has to be done by hand.
Probably not, the Brits would likely keep to the OTL ship construction schedules since they're already locked in via the long lead time items they've already ordered (engines, powerplants, gun barrels) attempting to pivot to an entirely different design means hundreds of millions of pounds and tens of thousands of man hours wasted for little gain. Remember that capital ships like the G3 class take years to complete, if they attempt to build it now they would finish post war in an era dominated by carriers.
Why would we? Tillmans were by design supposed to be ridiculously overbuilt bullshit to allow the Navy to get the most absurd ideas out of their system so they would stop bothering Congress for funds for new ships every other year. They were never supposed to be taken seriously.
Also do you really expect Thompson, not just a carrier enthusiast but the Aircraft Carrier Admiral, to push for obsolete large surface combat ships when he knows carriers and air doctrine will dominate warfare for the next century?
I'm assuming you're asking if FAB's would replace nukes as the large area explosive of choice this time and thus avoiding the Able and Baker tests at Bikini Atoll? Probably not, while the Luftwaffe did develop an early version by 44' it was never used. Thompson could probably float the idea as a way to hit large soft targets more efficiently, but the Bureau of Ordinance would have to be working almost of scratch to get it done. If you're attempting to avoid the Able and Baker nuclear tests there's an easy fix, Thompson is from the future and that knowledge is starting to spread in Allied high command, he's read the reports of the effectiveness of the ordinance and the results he can just relay the conclusions (that being aside from the pressure wave from the blast, there's not much physical damage to be had provided the crew is properly buttoned down inside the ship, the radiation also typically settled on the outside of the vessel meaning that in the immediate sense ship operation isn't impeded).
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- Location
- Pacific Northwest
@Skywalker_T-65, does this thus mean the Gatling is now entering the game as well?
Is the G3 class going to be constructed, by change?
And what about proper suppliers?
Are they going to be a thing?
Can we expect updated Tillman class hulls, if completely redesigned for other tasks?
Or is it going to be a partly done job, there and thus not great or reallly quite that bad?
Will the fuel-air bomb become a thing, before the nuke can wreck the metal from then on, with a radiation signature?
Are the auxiliary drydocks going to get their own powerplants and thus truely becoming mobile?
Auxiliary floating drydock - Wikipedia
Auxiliary repair dock - Wikipedia
And what about Well-docks for waterplane recovery tasks?
Well dock - Wikipedia
No to all of this. Thompson can do the most good with what he remembers of doctrine, operations and tactics. I believe he will recommend Thach work on his idea for the "Big Blue Blanket" and introduce that in 1943 than two years later.
FailLord
2050 lb bombs?
- Location
- very high up
I'm not sure but couldn't he also push for the AA battery of ships to be increased even further to 1945 levels?
Although the lack of VT shells would make it much less effective...
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SKsniper128
22050 kg of ordinance per minute
VT fuzed 5" shells were great for the long range barrage, but they also require the dual purpose mountings for AA duty.
In the more immediate sense if Thompson wants to increase the available AA firepower of a ship, he could recommend purchasing and installing 20mm Oerlikon's and 40mm Bofors cannons earlier than they were originally. Though really if you want protection against aircraft, the best bet really is just another aircraft flying CAP over you.
Spectre
eternal servant to the Fire/EMS gods
- Location
- NY
that's a production side problem. Oerlikons are just now assuming we're in Jan-Feb 42 becoming standard issue for all ships leaving the docks, and the bofors had a slight problem of being needing a complete redesign due to how unfriendly for mass production the original swedish variant was (we were less than pleased to find "file to fit" on official design blueprints in place of measurements)
Also The US had also essentially abandoned single purpose 5 inch mounts in the late 20's-early 30's.
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FailLord
2050 lb bombs?
- Location
- very high up
True, but from what I could remember from the top of my head, the 5" guns are still a hugely important part of the AA umbrella which had poor efficiency before VT shells as it was forced to fire in a box barrage.
There is the gap from 1942 to 1943 with the introduction of the F6F which would give advantage to the USN and any increase in AAA would help during this period.
VT shells will probably arrive much more quickly than IOTL; with Thompson having described how valuable they proved to be, research into radar that's small enough and cheap enough to be used in fuzes (note the Z, that's the official spelling for "the part that sets off a warhead" in the USN, with the "fuse"-with-an-S spelling reserved for "a device that acts as a circuit breaker by blowing out if it takes too much current and needs to be replaced rather than reset" electrical components.) Likewise, he would have probably also altered the balance of Bofors vs. Oerlikon mountings, given that it was found during the war that the 20mm didn't really have long enough range to kill enemy aircraft before they reached their weapons release point and thus basically became just a "revenge weapon" until the kamikaze threat... at which point it was found not to have the punch to completely destroy an aircraft bent on crashing into the ship (it could do lethal damage, but not enough to cause the plane to miss). The late-war fit with more Bofors than Oerlikons would probably be standard as soon as Bofors production ramps up sufficiently to meet the demand, with Oerlikons installed as space-and-weight reservation that's better than not having anything there.
What might actually make a major change would be if Thompson's knowledge of the 3"/50RF automatic guns developed by the anti-kamikaze program of 1944-45 would speed development of a VT fuze small enough for the 3" shell; that weapon was intended to replace the Bofors on a one-for-two barrel basis (though weightwise, it ended up being more like one-for-three), as it not only had longer range than the Bofors (useful against faster weapons like Fritz-X and Ohka), but also was the smallest gun able to accommodate a VT fuze; the net result was that the 3"/50RF (which was to come on line in 1946, though the end of the war delayed it to 1948 or so) was something like five times more effective, per barrel, than the Bofors in the AA role.
His knowledge of the Fritz-X might also see the 5"/54 DP gun intended for the Montana class and used on the Midway class accelerated, possibly finding use on the Iowas and later-build Essexes, Clevelands, and Baltimores in place of the 5"/38, since the point of the longer DP gun was to be able to engage the bombers carrying Fritz-X before they could release their weapons...
What might actually make a major change would be if Thompson's knowledge of the 3"/50RF automatic guns developed by the anti-kamikaze program of 1944-45 would speed development of a VT fuze small enough for the 3" shell; that weapon was intended to replace the Bofors on a one-for-two barrel basis (though weightwise, it ended up being more like one-for-three), as it not only had longer range than the Bofors (useful against faster weapons like Fritz-X and Ohka), but also was the smallest gun able to accommodate a VT fuze; the net result was that the 3"/50RF (which was to come on line in 1946, though the end of the war delayed it to 1948 or so) was something like five times more effective, per barrel, than the Bofors in the AA role.
His knowledge of the Fritz-X might also see the 5"/54 DP gun intended for the Montana class and used on the Midway class accelerated, possibly finding use on the Iowas and later-build Essexes, Clevelands, and Baltimores in place of the 5"/38, since the point of the longer DP gun was to be able to engage the bombers carrying Fritz-X before they could release their weapons...
stormturmoil
CALChemist
I suspect he is also working to get the lending of Victorious (and possible Illustrious too this time round) to be accelerated, so that the lessons there can be spread both ways.
He may well end up hitching a ride back to the fleet aboard one of them.
He may well end up hitching a ride back to the fleet aboard one of them.
FailLord
2050 lb bombs?
- Location
- very high up
Are the brits willing to lend one of their carriers though at this point of the war?
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- Location
- Pacific NW
Or would Churchill as a goodwill gesture, send Thompson back to the States on board Duke of York as a loaner BB until the USN gets either the oilers to support the undamaged Standards or the Fast Battleships online. With the caveat that the US 'loan' a heavy cruiser or two from the Atlantic fleet perhaps.
CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
It all depends on Formidable and Ark Royal. If Formidable is still operational and undamaged and Ark Royal is still afloat, then the Royal Navy has the margin to send a carrier to assist in the Pacific.
Royal Navy requirements were two fast fleet carriers in the Home Fleet to help corral the Germans, one in Force H, and one in the Mediterranean Fleet. IOTL damage to Formidable and Illustrious and the sinking of Ark Royal, Glorious, and Courageous all stymied British attempts to build up the necessary force.
Here, with Illustrious arriving back in the Home Fleet, the Royal Navy can spare a couple of carriers for the Pacific. Illustrious can team with Furious and Glorious in the Home Fleet; Ark Royal can remain in Force H; and Eagle and Formidable remain with the Mediterranean Fleet. This frees up Victorious and Indomitable for potential Pacific service.
Doubt it. This was around when the US was sending the Royal Navy a fast battleship, namely Washington. The fast battleships are frankly more useful in the Atlantic, where sea conditions in the Arctic and North Atlantic limit carrier capability and the Germans still have four fast battleships of their own.
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
The Germans have three fast BBs, actually. Sascha-is-Gneisenau, so they've got Scharn, Tirp and Bisko. So basically as OTL at this point, but you have Bismarck instead of Gneisenau. Actually, now that I think, still better than OTL because Gneis would have been in perma-drydock at this point from that bombing raid...
Either way, the point remains. The Germans have three BBs left operational, not counting the mostly-useless Pre-dreads. The Brits aren't going to be very fond of sending off their own fast battleships, though they may be more willing to spend their slow ones on Arctic duty, with all of the Germans focused in Norway and it being obvious why. Stalin is going to be screaming for battleships as escorts. Even with the loss of two of the R-class, though you can balance that out with New York and Texas to some extent.
Be it in the Red Navy or the Royal Navy, though I'm sure he'd prefer having the former as lend-lease. I do know how that whole 'send ships to the Reds' thing will work out here.
(Worth noting: We're well past the point where Ark would have historically been sunk, so just butterflies would imply she isn't...but at the same time, that doesn't mean she hasn't sunk or won't sink. And Glorious is currently already in the Pacific with Force Z.)
Either way, the point remains. The Germans have three BBs left operational, not counting the mostly-useless Pre-dreads. The Brits aren't going to be very fond of sending off their own fast battleships, though they may be more willing to spend their slow ones on Arctic duty, with all of the Germans focused in Norway and it being obvious why. Stalin is going to be screaming for battleships as escorts. Even with the loss of two of the R-class, though you can balance that out with New York and Texas to some extent.
Be it in the Red Navy or the Royal Navy, though I'm sure he'd prefer having the former as lend-lease. I do know how that whole 'send ships to the Reds' thing will work out here.
(Worth noting: We're well past the point where Ark would have historically been sunk, so just butterflies would imply she isn't...but at the same time, that doesn't mean she hasn't sunk or won't sink. And Glorious is currently already in the Pacific with Force Z.)
CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
Historically, the British committed only modern fast battleships to the Arctic convoys rather than their remaining slow battleships. Partly because of commitments everywhere else, but also because most of the older ships had inferior seakeeping from all the weight piled on them, they were too slow to have any chance to catch the Germans, and would've gotten murked by Tirpitz if she pressed the matter. I don't expect that to change here.
Right, Glorious is in the Pacific with Force Z.
- Location
- Pacific Northwest
Thompson can push all he wants, but the fact that it's more a problem of producing more weapons, more ships, and more ammunition means all he's doing is making noise when they're doing the best that they can.
I can imagine the senior Chrysler project manager who's trying to make changes to the original Swedish Bofors design to make it suitable for mass production, telling him they're working as fast as they can, and to butt out and stick to his area of expertise and leave them alone to do what they do best.
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