Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Damn, just caught up on nearly 6 months of posts. My fault for having a hundred-plus tabs opened and having a hard time shrinking the backlog faster than I was adding to it.

You know, I'm tempted to make a joke about the bulge and how Sara got it after Thompson woke up...

It's either that or blaming the galley staff and a newly-discovered sweet tooth backed by carrier-grade appetite.
And Thompson isn't nearly stupid enough to even remotely risk implying Sara got chubby with her stern sitting in drydock for a few months. :rofl:

Thompson crossed his arms in thought. If it isn't a batleship, I'll be amazed.

minor typo, missing 't'

Thompson probably travelled by ship to Britain, which Utah may have found novel, though air travel would have been even more novel to her.

Bad time to discover that shipgirls get horrifically seasick when they're not directly feet-in-water. Getting '2nd order' motion instead of the actual ship motion they're used to could really mess with their sense of balance.

None of them had ever looked at their African-American cooks and laborers the same way again.

If they manage to salvage WeVee after the beating she got at Pearl, and if things went close to cannon, she'd probably tear a strip off anyone who spoke ill of a certain messman second class.
 
Chapter 58
Chapter 58

Sitting in his bed, James Thompson stared up at the ceiling. He had not moved once since returning to this hotel room. Utah had left to get food and he'd barely even looked. He was entirely too preoccupied by thoughts that refused to leave him. All about one man and what he meant for this war.

Gustav Schreiber. The name means nothing to me. But his actions...goddamnit. I can't make any sense of what he's doing unless he's like me. That can't be possible though, we still don't even know how I'm here. I can't believe that someone else came back like this. Yet...

Sucking in a breath, Thompson held up a hand and stared at it, as if it could answer his questions. No answers would come.

"Yeah, that's about what I expected." With a soft chuckle, the Admiral let his hand fall back down. His eyes shifted, just enough, to look over at papers Churchill had sent to his room. "This is a mess. I thought dealing with the President was bad enough. Sometimes I wish I'd just kept my mouth shut and stuck with Sara until the War ended..."

Well, that was a lie. He couldn't regret the work he was doing to save lives. Things had been so much simpler, though, when all he was doing was talking with Sara and the others.

"I'm not going to get anything done just sitting here. Need to think about what I'm going to do." Rolling over in bed, the young Admiral climbed back to his feet and walked over to the desk and the papers. "Schreiber...what's going through your head right now? If you aren't like me, why are you doing this? I don't remember anyone doing anything like this in my time."

Granted, this entire timeline has been just a bit off since I woke up on Sara. So can I really predict anything at all? For all I know this is just an entirely different timeline from start to finish. The Japanese attacked early, after all. Sighing once more, the Admiral picked up a picture of Bismarck moored beside Tirpitz and Scharnhorst in a fjord. Well, nothing for it. I've been asked to figure this man out, so I should probably do that.

Setting the picture down, Thompson sat at the desk and crossed his legs. His eyes roamed over the papers, looking for any clues that he could work with. Anything that would give him a clearer picture of the man on the other side of the War. What did he know, really? Gustav Schreiber had begun in command of Blücher and no one in Britain- not even Lütjens -knew his previous career. The man hadn't done anything truly notable until the action against the Norwegians.

It had been a pain to wrack his own memory on the matter, but Thompson was fairly certain that Blücher was supposed to sink there. He vaguely remembered the Germans losing a brand new cruiser in that campaign, though it was so vague he couldn't be certain.

"So we have someone save a ship that should have sunk, and no idea of what he was doing before that." Thompson scratched his chin, and winced slightly. That was hardly helping the issue of 'is Schreiber also from the future or not?' since it was exactly what Thompson had been trying to do. "Okay...not proving anything. What has he done since then?"

Picking up other papers, the Admiral continued to read. Schreiber had been promoted up to Admiral and given command of Bismarck and Blücher as a battlegroup upon the former's commissioning. That had leapfrogged Lütjens, yet wasn't really indicative of anything else. The original Admiral of Bismarck was in Britain now, after all. So. Schreiber did well in Norway and got to be in charge of the newest battleship in Germany. He took the ship out on one major raid and disabled a British battleship while capturing- not sinking -a convoy. He hadn't even sunk the battleship, though Revenge had been a functional loss anyway.

What was stranger than that, was how he sent the message to Revenge. Schreiber, somehow, knew about the ship spirits. He knew, and he was using it to try and get the British to support him against Hitler and the Soviets. How? And why? He was so specific about the Soviets...

I wonder.

Looking down at his hands, Thompson thought back to his last meeting with the President. He had discussed similar things, hadn't he?

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In the dimness of the Oval Office, Admiral Thompson stared at the President. Roosevelt stared back, a cigarette casting flickers of light in his eyes as he took a drag of it. The President let his hand fall from his lips, blowing out a cloud of thick tobacco smoke. His sharp eyes staring directly into the much younger man, as if he was looking for something. It was always like this. Roosevelt, more than anyone else, knew how to read Thompson.

He always had.

"You are far from the first to raise concerns about Stalin." Roosevelt's voice was as strong as ever. Even with the stress of war and the knowledge of what was to come, the man maintained his composure and strength of will. His body may be failing him, yet his mind remained sharp. "It is a foolish man who trusts the word of a dictator with no concerns, nor complaints. However, I have seen little enough indication he plans on doing what you suggest. If nothing else, the Soviets are hardly in a position to dictate terms with the Germans at the gates of Moscow."

Thompson nodded, his own hands far from the cigarette that Roosevelt had offered him. "It certainly looks that way, doesn't it? If I didn't know how things were going, I'd think the Germans were about to win. But they won't. And the country is going to spend decades staring the Soviets down in Europe."

"Hm. Perhaps." Roosevelt replied, an amicable tone to his voice. "Perhaps what you knew is different from what will happen. Certainly I still find it hard to believe, even after everything you've been proven correct about. I may not trust Stalin completely, however, I trust enough to know that making a friend is better than viewing everyone who disagrees with us as an enemy." Tapping the table, as much to clear his cigarette as to make a point, the President continued. "Like it or not, the Soviets are our ally in this battle. We must acknowledge that and that, God willing, they survive this war in a shape to help us rebuild the World when all is said and done."

It was no secret that FDR trusted the Soviets more than anyone else did. He thought that he could work with them and tame the worst impulses of Stalin and his clique. It wasn't an incorrect belief, from what Thompson knew. Certainly Stalin had gotten along better with Roosevelt than anyone else, and vice-versa. Yet, he couldn't help but feel it was somewhat naive. The Cold War wouldn't have happened if the Soviets could be trusted...right? They were, even now, riddling the American government and the Manhattan Project with spies. His knowledge of that particular project had largely been what convinced the President he was telling the truth.

And the explosion of anger at the Soviet spies, captured after Thompson remembered the names of a couple- only a couple, he was no historian -of the more prominent ones? It was legendary to behold.

"I...well." Thompson sucked in a deep breath, and squared his shoulders. "I'm not going to say we should be ready to stab Stalin in the back when the War's over, or anything like that. I didn't grow up in the Cold War. Everything about that is...second-hand to me. Though, if my father or grandfather were in this room right now, they'd be screaming in your face that we should stop supplying anything to the Soviets and let them and the Nazis kill each other off and wipe our hands of the whole mess, other than stopping the Holocaust."

Roosevelt raised an eyebrow, yet said nothing. He simply took another puff of his cigarette and let the Admiral continue speaking.

"I can't claim to understand it, but my parents and grandparents lived through it, sir. They lived in a world where everyone was constantly afraid of the entire human race blowing themselves up with nuclear weapons. The Soviets spent millions, billions, of dollars and spent thousands of lives propping up Communist states across the world. From the day the war with Hitler ended, until the day the Wall fell, we were at ideological war with the Soviets." Thompson shook his head and sighed. "Again, I didn't live through that. I'm more worried about how many people are dying right now, and if we have to work with the Soviets to stop that, we should. I just..."

"You desire to stop the bloodshed and avoid the suffering of what you know as the post-war world." The President spoke, his face wreathed in smoke. His face was unreadable, yet his eyes held a certain sympathetic glint to them. He sighed as well, and looked down at the table. "I do understand what you are telling me, Admiral. I do not even doubt that you are correct. It hasn't escaped me that the Soviets would happily take all of Eastern Europe for their own. Nor do I doubt that they would cause such an orgy of destruction upon the Germans that it would make the Great War appear as children playing with toys."

Here, the President looked as if he wanted to stand and pace around his desk. He could not. Sighing once more, Roosevelt simply stared at Thompson with tired eyes.

"Yet, the other choice is to allow the Germans to do much the same, if not worse. What you have told me of the Holocaust...I would not have believed it, coming from anyone else. Even as much as I loathe Hitler and his followers, the idea that the German people would willingly slaughter millions upon millions out of a misguided belief in racial superiority...it boggles the mind. I never doubted that we were on a righteous path in our quest to destroy that loathsome government. Your words merely proved my point correct."

Thompson nodded, his own shoulders slumping tiredly. "Japan isn't much better. If there was ever a war where one side was completely evil, this is it. I'm not going to say we shouldn't do everything we can to win this as quickly as possible, and most of my focus is on the Pacific and my girls anyway. I just...you asked me about the future. I can't rightfully tell you about it without mentioning the Cold War and warning you about what Stalin is going to do, as soon as the War is over."

Shrugging helplessly, Thompson looked at the President with a crooked smile. "East Germany and Eastern Europe were not nice places, and I don't think being even nicer to the Soviets is going to do much to convince them to listen. They happily stomped down on anyone who thought about being anything other than hardcore Communist to the end. We have to help them and I will never say otherwise, though."

"Rest assured, Admiral. If nothing else, your words and the capture of the spies has convinced me that we should be more careful in our handling of that relationship. I still trust Stalin further than I would ever trust Hitler or anyone who is in his government, but I will not make the same mistakes you told me of." Roosevelt held a hand out, and Thompson reached out to take it. The President gripped it tightly, his hand showing no signs of the weakness of his body. "I assure you, I will do what I can to safeguard Democracy in Europe and Asia. So long as I live, I will fight for that. Even if it is at odds with our allies."

"As long as we win this war, I think I can deal with whatever else comes after it. As long as we don't die in a nuclear war." Thompson smiled, and Roosevelt chuckled softly. "Or the Abyssals showing up."

"And there is something you will have to tell me more about, before you head to Britain..."


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Looking back at the message from Admiral Schreiber, the American let his head fall to his desk. A deep sigh escaped his lips at the memory and the thoughts of how he was going to explain this to Roosevelt.

"A German Admiral who wants to unseat the Nazis and sign a peace that is unconditional, other than keeping Stalin from getting his gloves all over Germany." Thompson muttered, turning the words over in his head. He already knew what the President would say. "Damn it all...Roosevelt isn't going to want to play ball on that, not without some sort of promise to turn over anyone who committed war crimes. Even then, how the hell are we going to tell Stalin to not march into Germany after what the Germans did?"

As he had told the President, the Cold War was a distant thing for him. In a lot of ways, World War Two- even before he had ended up living it -was more real to him than the Cold War. He knew plenty of girls who had lived and died in the War, after all. He couldn't say the same for Cold Warriors, and since he hadn't had to live with the threat of nukes hanging over his head, he couldn't remotely claim to understand it. He knew that Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were evil. In his heart and his mind.

It was harder to think the same about the Soviets, simply because he hadn't experienced it.

Can I blame Schreiber for wanting to protect his country, though? If I were living in Germany, I wouldn't want to have the Soviets merrily rampaging across the country, looting and raping as they go. No matter how justified they are in doing that. Or feel they are...I couldn't justify raping innocent women or slaughtering men who had no crime but working a farm.

This was part of why he had been content with his little corner of the War to be. Helping the ship girls to survive and limiting the damage Japan could do at Pearl and beyond. That was nice and simple. He hadn't had to worry about the politics of it all, or about how the Eastern Front was a mess where no one was the good guy, just that the Soviets had more cause for their coming blood-rage than the Nazis did.

Fucking hell, it all kept coming back around to the fact he had no practical experience with the Soviets or what they would do. Intellectually, he knew that letting them have Eastern Europe and start the Cold War would be a disaster. That countries would be stripped bare and turned into meat-shield colonies for the Soviets, and it wasn't just going to be Germany. Emotionally, he couldn't get past the fact that the Soviets were the ones having millions of their people herded up and slaughtered by the Nazis right now. It made getting into Schreiber's head almost impossible for him. He just....he just didn't have the ability to do it.

"I miss Sara." Thompson grunted, slamming his head against his desk repeatedly. "I miss Enterprise. I miss Halsey being an asshole to everyone. It was so much simpler and I don't like what I'm having to do now."

A soft cough caused him to stop the repeated slamming, and instead turn his green-gaze towards the doorway. Utah stood there, holding a tray of food with a worried smile on her face. "I apologize, Admiral. Am I interrupting something important?"

"Nah, just me complaining about how my life sucks now." Thompson replied, waving a hand at the way Utah tilted her head in confusion. "Don't worry, I'll figure things out. So, you do what you needed to do?"

Utah smiled, and moved to set the tray down on the newly-clear desk. "Yes, I did. Talking with Victory was...interesting. I think I'll be meeting with her again before we go home, if that isn't a problem?"

Shrugging and scooting over so Utah had somewhere to sit, the Admiral smiled. "I don't see why not. Besides, we both need to talk to more people. I've been cooped up too much."

"I doubt that you would complain, or that Sister Sara would." Utah smiled back, happily grabbing an apple from the tray.

To his credit, Thompson only blushed a little bit as he reached out and grabbed a piece of fruit for himself. As the two of them ate in silence, the young man could only think. His train of thought had been derailed by Utah's arrival...but maybe that wasn't a bad thing? She could probably give him some more material to work with, anyway. Another voice to talk to and another person to bounce ideas off of. If he just kept up as he had, he'd keep running himself in circles.

He wasn't, and never would be, a politician. All of the political questions were way above his pay grade, yet here he was. The curses of being useful. For something that was out of his control, even.

"Hey, Utah." Thompson asked, when he had no food in his mouth. The battleship- on her third sandwich, now -turned and gave him a sheepish smile. Thompson just smiled back. "I was wondering what you thought about Schreiber? I can't really get into his head, myself, since I've never been in the same kind of position."

Utah swallowed the sandwich, a thoughtful expression flitting across her scarred face. "Honestly, the same is true for me, Admiral. However..." Tapping her chin, Utah leaned back in her chair and looked up a little. "From what we know, he seems to be a man in a difficult place, trying to do the best he can for his country? I know I would do anything to protect America and, more importantly, to protect my daughters. I...you've seen how far I can go, if I must."

The haunted look in her eyes prompted Thompson to place a comforting hand on her arm and give it a little squeeze. "No one blames you for that, y'know. You lost control because you were angry. Happens to us all, every once in a while."

"I know...it still hurts when I remember, though." Utah returned the smile he gave her, and placed her free hand on his own. "I do not really understand all of the political issues myself, but that is what I feel. He feels the same as I do, just for his entire country instead of for a few daughters. Until we talk to him ourselves, I really can't say anything else."

Thompson nodded, "Until we talk to him ourselves..."

The two fell silent, returning to their meal as they were lost in their own thoughts. Utah in her memories of the Pearl Harbor attack. Thompson in thoughts of Schreiber and his motivations. Perhaps he really did just need to talk to the man, face to face. Or as close as they could manage, on opposing sides of the greatest war in human history. If he could talk to the man, he could understand more of his motivations. Why he fought on for a Germany he clearly hated.

Why he was doing everything he possibly could to preserve Germany and keep Stalin out, against all the odds.

Schreiber...I can't understand you, not yet. But maybe I can at least try. If nothing else, I would love to believe we can end this war before so many people have to die...



Hasn't really been a fun few months, but I think everyone can understand that. Toss in that this chapter fought me something fierce and...well. Yeah. Hopefully it lives up to the wait, at least >.>

The hardest part is getting the right mix with Thompson here. He doesn't have anywhere near the emotional connection to things that Schreiber does. He doesn't much like Stalin or the Soviets, but for Thompson, it's more in the way of 'I know they're brutal and we are in a Cold War for decades' sort of way. He didn't live it like the German Admiral did. To him, WW2 and the Nazis/Japanese are a much more real thing than the Soviets ever were.

He's still going to tell Roosevelt that he shouldn't trust Stalin farther than he can throw him, but in a 'you asked me about the future, so I'm telling you' sort of way. Instead of a 'you killed my father, prepare to die.' sort of way. Intellectual vs Emotional.

Hopefully that worked out.

(equally difficult is the Roosevelt view on Stalin, since so much of that is subject to biased reporting, one way or the other. It's difficult to get to the meat of that in research, which took up a lot of time in making this. Not helped by Roosevelt's views on Stalin evolving during the war, once they met in person.)
 
Very glad to see this back. I've been waiting for the intersection of Thompson's and Schreiber's stories; that's what will bring us to the emotional climax we've all been waiting for.
 
In regard to the revelation about Soviet spies in America, will Thompson tell Churchill about the Cambridge Five? I am not sure if he is even aware of them. But Kim Philby is somewhat infamous by how successful he was as a Double Agent for the Soviet Union.
 
In regard to the revelation about Soviet spies in America, will Thompson tell Churchill about the Cambridge Five? I am not sure if he is even aware of them. But Kim Philby is somewhat infamous by how successful he was as a Double Agent for the Soviet Union.
i though Thom-boy here was only good with Pacific stuff and is kinda lousy with the European side of thing
 
Huzzah, an update! Always very glad to see another post from this story.

And for what it's worth, I'm shocked that the Admiral remembered the names of *any* Soviet spies from the 40's, given how outside of his sphere that was.
 
I don't think Schreiber would want to sign an unconditional surrender. In part because Germany as a state wouldn't factually exist anymore and because the worst of their war crimes (Wannsee conference) should have only happened on the 20th January of the current year.
 
Huzzah, an update! Always very glad to see another post from this story.

And for what it's worth, I'm shocked that the Admiral remembered the names of *any* Soviet spies from the 40's, given how outside of his sphere that was.
Probably Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, they were pretty famous, as was Klaus Fuchs. Just being able to name one Soviet spy in the Manhattan Project in early '42 would cause enough alarm bells to ring to start a full-on spy hunt throughout the military and government. (And hopefully, Roosevelt would be smart enough to keep it quiet and controlled, unlike Joe McCarthy ten years later...)

And for God's sake, Thompson, there should probably be a photo or a few biographical details about Schreiber in the dossier that would indicate how old he is and give you a hint as to his reasons. I mean, birthdate information wasn't exactly kept highly classified in that time, and even today, just about any intel briefing on a person would tend to start "Gustav Schreiber, age 53. Admiral in the Kriegsmarine, currently in command of the Bismarck battle group."
 
"Yet, the other choice is to allow the Germans to do much the same, if not worse. What you have told me of the Holocaust...I would not have believed it, coming from anyone else. Even as much as I loathe Hitler and his followers, the idea that the German people would willingly slaughter millions upon millions out of a misguided belief in racial superiority...it boggles the mind. I never doubted that we were on a righteous path in our quest to destroy that loathsome government. Your words merely proved my point correct."
Piggybacking off ol' Roosevelt here. It keeps me up at night, sometimes, to think of a world where the Nazis won. It'd be a world half empty. Stalin wasn't going out of his way to "clear" the slate, or at least no more then to maintain control. But Hitler? Hitler would have... you know, wiped out Europe itself. It's a good thing we stopped him, because he wouldn't stop until he killed everyone he didn't like, and he didn't liked a lot of people.
 
The Rosenbergs and Klaus Fuchs generally do come up in American High Schools. How well the students remember those names does vary. The Cambridge Five... not so much.

Anyways, the reasons why the WAllied leadership (and by leadership, I mean senior and middle policymakers, which includes but is not necessarily limited too Churchill and Roosevelt) trusted the Soviets is covered rather excellently by David Reynolds in chapter 13 of "From World War To Cold War: Churchill, Roosevelt, and the International History of the 1940s". Undoubtedly, Thompson doesn't necessarily know any of this, since this is an in-depth study of at least college-level material that would require a rather exacting degree of interest, but they are challenges that Thompson and Schreiber could theoretically face in trying to change WAllied opinion about the Soviets. IDK if Sky's read the work (and if you haven't and are interested @Skywalker_T-65, I do recommend it) or intends to incorporate any of the information presented in it into the story, but I figure this might provide better background for anyone interested beyond we might think based on more general "pop histories". For those so interested, please click the spoilers button.

A quick digression before we begin: while Churchill liked to portray himself as consistently suspicious and against the Soviets after the war, Reynolds points out that his actual record of behavior during the war was much more mixed. There were times that Churchill came away with attitudes of the same exact sort that Roosevelt rather more consistently had of them, although his euphoria over these issues was naturally a lot easier to break. Rather then being a consistent anti-Soviet agitator during the war, however, rather Churchill tended to vacillate between the two contrasting western perceptions of the post-war Russian question (that is, whether the Soviet Union would be an expansionistic threat or an obstreperous but ultimately cooperative partner). As a rule, Churchill was most favorably inclined towards the latter view in a certain timeframe before, during, and after his major meetings with Stalin and was most favorably inclined towards the first view when he inevitably ran head long into disillusionment afterwards. Most of the time, he existed between these two spectrums.

More generally, both views had their advocates in Washington and London, but the second view increasingly won out during 1942-1945, only for the West to steadily reverse course and increasingly adopt the first view in 1945-1948. And even after the war, Churchill did have a tendency to privately recall his meetings with Stalin in terms that are surprisingly fond given the proto-Cold Warrior rep he built up.

Regardless, the arguments that won out during the war about the view of the Soviets as a difficult but ultimately willing partner were built on one fact and three key assumptions. The fact was that, after the Battle of Stalingrad and especially after the Battle of Kursk, it became increasingly obvious that the Soviets were going to overrun Eastern Europe with a large, well-led, battle-hardened, and solidly equipped army. This was pretty solid and rather indisputable. The assumptions seem less so, in fact with the benefit of hindsight of the Cold War they can seem frankly ridiculous, but they were widely accepted at the time.

The first assumption, which was both the most solid and the one which drove the British most of all, was that there would be no long-term American presence after the war. This was a consistent plank of Roosevelts throughout the war and even Truman didn't really start to repudiate it until after the war. To quote Reynolds:

"In April 1943, for instance, Churchill observed: 'We must not expect that the United States will keep large armies in Europe for long after the war. Indeed, I doubt whether there will be any American troops in Europe after the "Cease Firing". Roosevelt made the point explicitly on several occasions. Asked by General George C. Marshall in November 1943 how long it would be necessary to keep an occupation force in Germany, he said 'for at least one year, maybe two'. That same month, at Teheran, when discussing with Stalin the application of his policemen concept to Europe, the President said that 'England and the Soviet Union would have to handle the land armies in the event of any future threat to the peace' because he 'only envisaged the sending of American planes and ships to Europe'. And he told Churchill in February 1944: 'I am absolutely unwilling to police France and possibly Italy and the Balkans as well. After all, France is your baby and will take a lot of nursing in order to bring it to the point of walking alone. The implications of such comments were not lost in Whitehall (or presumably the Kremlin). They disposed British policy-makers to seek cooperation because of the superiority of Russian power, particularly on land and in Europe. To adapt Churchill at Teheran: 'the poor little English donkey' was in no position alone to stand up to 'the great Russian bear'." -Page 239.

It's worth noting that by and large, this assumption was the one that came closest to becoming a reality. The US did indeed cut it's forces in Europe to almost nothing after WW2 and likely would have pulled out even the skeletal garrison force that was left in 1946 or '47 if not for the increasing tensions with the USSR and the difficulty in convincing the Anglo-French in absorbing their own occupation zones.

The second assumption was trust in the Soviet leadership. This assumption, given what we know today, is frankly downright hysterical. But then the leadership of the US and Britain during WW2 did not know what we know about the USSR's internal workings. Kremlinology was ultimately a product of the Cold War and didn't exist in the 30's or 40's. The result was that, as odd as it seems to us today, Stalin was viewed by the diplomats who met him during the war as one of the moderates in the Soviet leadership. More than once, Churchill or Roosevelt would wonder when Stalin's attitude was being influenced by some sort of sinister "council of commissars" or group of sinister opponents. They identified Molotov as a leader of this group pretty quickly. The Soviets, being the sneaky devils they were, cottoned on and deliberately played to this notion, with Stalin often playing the 'good cop' to Molotov's 'bad cop'. Molotov would go first in meetings, be all difficult and obstructive (he gained the nickname "Comrade Nyet" among Western Diplomats), then Stalin would come out and try to look like he was the compromiser. Stalin would also reinforce the impression sometime by making some sort of cryptic reference of having to answer to some other body, like the Supreme Soviet. As David Reynolds puts it:

-"The image of Stalin as a relative moderate buffeted by dark and powerful political forces became a recurrent motif. On 16 October 1943, for instance, Churchill copied to Roosevelt a long and fractious telegram from Stalin about convoys to Russia. The Prime Minister commented 'I think or at least I hope this message came from the machine rather than from Stalin as it took 12 days to prepare. The Soviet machine is quite convinced it can get everything by bullying and I am sure it is a matter of some importance to show that this is not necessarily always true. During his 'percentages' meeting in Moscow in October 1944, Churchill cabled home: 'there is no doubt that in our narrow circle we have talked with an ease, freedom and beau gest[e] never before attained between our two countries. Stalin has made several expressions of personal regard which I feel sure were sincere. But I repeat my convictions that he is by no means alone. 'Behind the horseman sits dull care.''
-Nor was this a peculiarly British way of thinking. During 1944 Harriman, as Ambassador to Moscow, developed his own two-camps theory of Soviet policymaking. 'Many of Stalin's counsellors', he told the State Department in September, 'see things to a degree at least as we do, whereas others are opposed. The Soviet Government is not of one mind. Through our actions we should attempt to encourage his [i.e. Stalin's] confidence in the advice of the former group and make him realize that the others get him into trouble when he follows their advice. Both Harriman and Roosevelt were prone to blame Soviet displays of truculence on unfriendly factions in the Politburo or on the failure of Molotov, Vyshinsky, or Soviet intelligence to provide Stalin with accurate information." - Page 243-244.

So as absurd as it may seem to us now, at the time there was a belief that Stalin was not fully in control of the Soviet Union's foreign policy apparatus and that he was the moderate of the decisionmakers.

The third assumption was Convergence Theory. The basic idea was twofold: first, the Soviet Union was in the first steps of shaking off that whole "revolutionary communism" agenda and starting the move, however fitfully and slowly, towards a Social Democracy. To quote Reynolds:

-"At the official levels, appraisals of Soviet policy increasingly assumed a post-revolutionary and, in that sense, an increasingly 'normal' state. In January 1942, after his first visit to Moscow, Eden considered Stalin 'a political descendant of Peter the Great rather then Lenin'. Similarly, a Foreign Office paper of April 1944 on post-war Soviet security policy stated: "Externally the fixed point will be in the future, as it has been in the past (at any rate, since Stalin's victory over Trotsky), the search for security against any Power or combination of Powers which might threaten her while she was organizing and developing her own domain.' This concept of 'Russia redux' helped resolve the Soviet enigma for many policy-makers and buttressed the idea that one could do business with Stalin.
-But one should also consider 'Stalinism' from the angle of domestic policy because it betokened the related idea that, internally, the Soviet Union was developing from revolutionary uniqueness into a society more recognizable to British or American eyes. Roosevelt spoke of the USSR evolving 'from the original form of Soviet communism... toward a modified form of state socialism.' In April 1943 he expressed his belief that 'the revolutionary current of 1917 may be spent in this war... with progress following evolutionary constitutional lines.' in the future. And he told a British diplomat in December 1944 'that he was not afraid of Communism as such. There were many varieties of Communism and not all of them were necessarily harmful.' In similar vein, Speakers' Notes disseminated by the British Ministry of Information in February 1943 asserted that communism in the USSR was 'not a malignant Marxist bogey, but much more a Russian answer to a Russian problem' and that Stalin's reforms showed that 'while Russia is certainly not a democratic state as we understand it, it is a state moving towards the democracies'." -Page 245-246

The second idea behind Convergence Theory was also that the various western countries were becoming more like the Soviet Union in that they were accepting more and more socialist aspects into their economy. This idea was not just born from an observation of the Soviet Union, but also from experience in Western Democracies themselves over the last two decades. More specifically, the New Deal in America, the rough British equivalents during the Great Depression, and then the tremendous governmental planning apparatus born in both countries during WW2 lead to a much wider spread acceptance that some form of socialist or socialist-esque planning was just going to be more common place in Western Democracies, existing alongside the capitalist markets. The Great Depression itself likewise damaged faith in the ability of private enterprise to handle things on their own. There are actually startling, if rather obvious, parallels here with the disillusionment of Millennials and Generation Z with neo-liberal style capitalism in the past decade as a reaction to the rising economic and environmental crisis. To quote Reynolds for the last time:

-"Convergence theory was not simply a statement about how the Soviets were becoming more like us; it was also about how 'we' in some respects were becoming more like them. The Depression had a devastating effect on faith in unfettered private enterprise. This was particularly true in Britain where interest in some form of state planning extended well beyond the Labour left. At the height of wartime good feeling, the success of the Russian war effort could not be dissociated in the public mind from some admiration for some aspects of the Soviet system, and this may have played a part, despite the Labour leadership's detestation of communism, in the party's victory in the election of July 1945. As one Conservative candidate declared afterwards: 'At meeting after meeting questioners would get up and say: 'Look what nationalization has done for Russia, and how great she has become...' Even Churchill, that fervent anti-Red, had to acknowledge that the political complexion of the British people was 'becoming a trifle pinker'. (To which Stalin shot back: 'That is a sign of good health.')
-In the United States, unlike most of Europe, there was not a significant wartime swing to the left-if anything the opposite. But the New Deal, however one interprets it, had clearly been a modification of liberal capitalism, involving a more corporatist society, greater government direction to the economy and an enlarged Federal bureaucracy. The total engrossment of society by the state was of course, anthema: use of the term 'totalitarianism' peaked in the United States between the Nazi-Soviet pact and Barbarossa and embraced Germany, Italy, and the Soviet Union. It was to become a staple of the Cold War Manichean worldview from 1946. But we should not forget that, in the intervening period, one of the most influential writers of the 1940s on political economy, James Burnham, argued in his 1941 best-seller The Managerial Revolution that, although liberal capitalism was declining, recent Soviet history suggested that the victor would not be socialism but a new centralized society controlled by 'managers'." -Page 246-247.

Of course, the whole theory was, in Reynolds own words, "rested on serious myopia, ignorance, and wishful thinking about the Soviet Union." But as he rather convincingly illustrates: it was seriously believed in throughout the early and mid-40s. It wasn't until the onset of the Cold War in the late-40s and the concurrent Red Scare that it was seriously disabused and fell out of vogue, particularly in academia.

The tl;dr version:
"The British and American hopes of a working relationship with the Soviet Union reflected three important assumptions [during the war] - expectation of a limited American role in post-war Europe, confidence in Stalin himself as a man with whom one could do business, and hopes that 'Stalinism' betokened a shift [away] from revolutionary ideology at home and abroad towards a more 'normal state." -David Reynolds, From World War to Cold War, Page 247-248. These three assumptions, combined with the fact of large Soviet armies rolling westward from 1943 onwards implacably toward and over Eastern Europe, drove Anglo-American leaders to try to reach some form of accommodation or understanding with Stalin rather then opposition while they could be maintained.

The collapse of these assumptions after the end of the war, of course, exposed their folly and played their own part in setting the stage for the Cold War.
 
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When exactly did Thompson break the time travel to Roosevelt?

I don't remember that happening.

Could somebody please link the post?
 
When exactly did Thompson break the time travel to Roosevelt?

I don't remember that happening.

Could somebody please link the post?
I believe that it happened after Enty spilled that Thompson was a time traveler to Halsey after Thompson got knocked out during a strafing run/suicide attack on Saratoga's bridge in which Sara saved Thompson's life.
 
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I wouldn't say she decided so much as Halsey forced the issue :V

For a couple other things:

1. Thompson doesn't know all the spies, or even more than a couple. He knows a couple (in)famous names and that's about it. A kind of 'I need something for the President, what about Soviet Spies...wait, do I know any of those?' sort of thing. Knowing a couple of well-known names is not the same as breaking a spy network, though with Hoover around...

2. Frankly speaking, Barbarossa is one full-on War Crime from start to finish. Even if the worst of the Holocaust hasn't started yet, you've still got the Germans doing some terrible things to the Russians and anyone else in Eastern Europe who isn't Hungarian or Romanian.

3. Thompson is only getting part of the picture, vis-a-vis Schreiber. To him, it looks like 'unconditional surrender, just keep the Soviets out'. Which isn't inaccurate, but also isn't the full story. Also isn't 'unconditional' since that is inherently conditional at keeping the Soviets out, but I digress :V

4. There's biographical information on Schreiber, but the issue is Thompson still can't make up his mind on what he is (ie, time traveler or not) so it doesn't help much on the motivation side of things. Yet.
 
Just putting the idea of a conditional surrender in FDR's head will do a lot of good, part of the reason the italians took too long to surrender after arresting Mussolini was that the leadership was scared of what unconditional surrender would be. If at Casablanca he leads with the idea of a number of absolute conditions to acept the capitulation of the axis powers (even if amount those are still the trials for war crimes and crimes against humanity of all the nazis) he will decrease the amount of fanatism of the german military since many of them, like Schreiber are free of that particular taint, and others would know the country will survive even if they don't.
 
Just putting the idea of a conditional surrender in FDR's head will do a lot of good, part of the reason the italians took too long to surrender after arresting Mussolini was that the leadership was scared of what unconditional surrender would be. If at Casablanca he leads with the idea of a number of absolute conditions to acept the capitulation of the axis powers (even if amount those are still the trials for war crimes and crimes against humanity of all the nazis) he will decrease the amount of fanatism of the german military since many of them, like Schreiber are free of that particular taint, and others would know the country will survive even if they don't.
But the unconditional surrender part was put into the terms in the first place to prevent the repeat of the stab in the back myth that gained traction in germany after the conclusion of the First World War
 
It's also worth considering the fact that as time goes on, it's only going to become harder and harder to lock the Soviets out of any surrender. This isn't just because of the Red Army's rebound and growth into military superpowerdom, but also because of the prestige the Soviets will earn in the process of progressively scoring bigger and bigger victories during the course of 1943.

There's also the issue of domestic Anglo-American morale, which is often ignored in the discussions surrounding it. The idea of unconditional surrender resonated quite well with the Anglo-American public, who were tied up in the idea that this was a Great Crusade and that the German nation had to be vanquished so totally not just to prevent a new "stab in the back" myth, but also so the evil within it could be expunged. As Max Hastings observes:

"Yet while the war was still being fought it was unthinkable for the Western allies to offer any olive branch. It would have been profoundly damaging to the motivation of ordinary American and British soldiers suddenly to have informed them that the Germans whom they were being asked to die fighting were merely lost souls who had been unfortunate enough to fall into the hands of evil leaders. Any such equivocation by Washington or London would also have provoked a crisis with Moscow. The time for offering mercy could come only when Germany had been militarily abased." -Armageddon: The Battle for Germany 1944-1945, page 194

The nuances of such 1940s public opinion may be a bit lost on Thompson or Schreiber, who only have their own memories and biases to propel them, but Roosevelt is someone who usually had an excellent pulse on American public mood, so he's liable to factor it in. Churchill tended to be far more detached from the British populace, but when it was made obvious to him he would promptly tailor his policy approach appropriately. But at the very least, Thompson is in a good position to squash some of the more outrageous ideas that were dreamt up under the unconditional surrender banner that were unfotunately ditched too late to prevent them from becoming propaganda fodder for the Nazis. The Morgenthau Plan comes to mind.
 
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The American public was also becoming tired of the war and restless as shown by the significant to drastic drop in enthusiasm and participation in war bond purchases and rallies. There was a growing mood of 'Just Get it over with already' from the public and the politicians proved to have a good measure on the pulse of public opinion. On the part of the military high leadership there was a sense of 'Why should we bleed out when the Russians are willing to do so'.

What I think Schreiber is hoping for is to first ready a government to replace the Nazis on behalf of the German people, headed by Louis Ferdinand. Probably a highly modified constitutional monarchy like Britain. Then convince enough generals with enough troops to depose Hitler, the Nazi party and the SS. While having the troops in the Ostfront hold the line somewhere like the Dneiper river as the best solution, until a surrender can be worked out with the Allies on German surrender and assistance in de-Nazifying Germany, elections, etc. Then comes the fun of borders. I don't think that the Soviets or Germany would want a slew of weak, small states on their borders, so I imagine a single large Slavic Commonwealth (like the historical Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) from the Baltics to the Black Sea with a neutral status like Switzerland might be potentially feasible. Particularly if a future United Nations HQ was placed in one of its main cities like Riga or Odessa.
 
I will say that I plotted out exactly what I'm doing with the Soviets and Schreiber and such a long time ago. So I know how that's going to go, and it won't be too long (in terms of chapters, at least >.>) before I start dropping hints and peaks at the Soviets.
 
While having the troops in the Ostfront hold the line somewhere like the Dneiper river as the best solution,

The problem I've always had with such strategic withdrawals is that the cost saving benefits work both ways. For all the tremendous losses they inflicted on the Germans, the Soviets themselves did have to spend millions of life, mountains of equipment, and considerable amounts of time fighting their way back out of Russia, across Belarus-Ukraine, and on into Eastern Europe in the process. Retaking Eastern Ukraine in August-October 1943 alone cost them something on the order of two million men (a number which includes Operation Rumyanstev, the two Donbass Offensives, and most of the D'niepr Operations but excludes concurrent operations at Orel and Smolensk to the north which drove Army Group Center out of Western European Russia and back into Belarus), along with the thousands of tanks, guns, and planes. Just withdrawing from that territory not only saves the Russians all that time and effort, it also hands back valuable territory with all the resources within it. Prior to the war, Eastern Ukraine was probably the single largest industrial and agricultural region in the Soviet Union. The sooner the Soviets take it back, the sooner they can start drafting the surviving military-age population, restart the farms and mines, and rebuild the factories and railways to produce for their own war effort. And as late-1943 shows, the Soviets were able to push up enough mechanized and artillery forces to punch through a defense mounted on the D'niepr river line as it was even after the aforementioned losses in August-October. It's entirely possible that whatever time is gained by strengthening whichever defensive line is offset by the Soviets being able to launch their attacks against that line that much sooner while also being that much stronger or worse.

I will say that I plotted out exactly what I'm doing with the Soviets and Schreiber and such a long time ago. So I know how that's going to go, and it won't be too long (in terms of chapters, at least >.>) before I start dropping hints and peaks at the Soviets.

Great! I can't wait.
 
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What I think Schreiber is hoping for is to first ready a government to replace the Nazis on behalf of the German people, headed by Louis Ferdinand. Probably a highly modified constitutional monarchy like Britain. Then convince enough generals with enough troops to depose Hitler, the Nazi party and the SS. While having the troops in the Ostfront hold the line somewhere like the Dneiper river as the best solution, until a surrender can be worked out with the Allies on German surrender and assistance in de-Nazifying Germany, elections, etc.
Ugh. Sounds like it'd be replacing the Myth of the 1918 Backstab with the 1943ish Backstab. Which would be done while the Germans Armies are, if not at their largest expansion, still pretty close to it. De-nazifying Germany may well prove factually impossible under such conditions. They might even win any new elections.

I will say that I plotted out exactly what I'm doing with the Soviets and Schreiber and such a long time ago. So I know how that's going to go, and it won't be too long (in terms of chapters, at least >.>) before I start dropping hints and peaks at the Soviets.
Looking forward to it.
 
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