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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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Dirtnap said:
the issue with Brit CAs is that there are far too few of them. I don't know what's available to them right now but Exeter and her half sisters are about the most modern ones and they have fewer barrels and much thinner armor than the Zaras.
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Then again, unless the Italians deploy all their battlefleet, they're probably only going to field a single CA division - even two British CA would keep them busy.

On the other hand, the Italians also have two cruisers of the Duca degli Abruzzi sub-class which, while unable to pierce the main belt of an exeter at 20k yards, have plenty of armor (a 100mm belt + 30mm decapping belt which was intended to be more or less equivalent to Zara's 150mm belt at normal engagement ranges).

Skywalker_T-65 said:
Technically speaking, they built a ton of smol torpedo boats explicitly because they were expendable.

It's the heavy units the Italians refuse to attrit away.
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Yeah, most of the daring deeds and self-sacrificing acts in the Regia Marina were from the crews of Destroyers and Torpedo boats because they were the ones with the most freedom of action.

Though at this point, if the convoy is really critical, the list of expendable ships can probably be extended to Giulio Cesare, who was, at this point OTL, already retired from frontline duty and whatever cruisers are left from the first two Condottieri subclasses (also reassigned to minelaying and convoy duties soon after the start of the war OTL).

Thorthemighty said:
it might get exceptionally sticky if they are any Condottieri class Light Cruisers then things will be very much problematic as those things are fast as in 37-knots at flank fast, and they got torpedoes.
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Jrandom said:
But no armor.
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Gosu said:
37 at light load, just out of dock, and brand new during trials perhaps. My reference says 31-32 knot operationally at deep load in service.
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While the first two batches of Condottieri-class light cruisers did have a 37-knots top speed (42 during -rather unrealistic- trials), by this time OTL the engines were so worn out we have at least one example of two of them having trouble exceeding 32 knots in rough seas (Cape Spada). Granted, those cruisers had bad seakeeping in the first place so they could very well be faster in calmer sea conditions, but I wouldn't count on them being that much faster than their British counterparts.
 
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That is intentional, yes. Unlike her sisters (and especially Warspite) she missed every major battle.
 
Real Life Historic Example: Battle of Cape Spada 19 July 1940

HMAS Sydney and 5 destroyers, HMS Hasty, Havock, Hyperion, Hero and IIlex VS Barrtolomeo Colleoni and Giovanni Dele Bande Nere


The two cruisers chased 4 of the destroyers until they were met by Sydney and Havock. Then they turned and ran. Sydney opened fire at long range, and Barrtolomeo Colleoni was crippled by a shell hit to the boiler room. She was later sunk by the destroyers accompanying Sydney.

Sydney hit Giovanni Dele Bande Nere at long range, but ran low on ammo, so she got away. The Italians suffered numerous casualties, while Sydney continued her good fortune during the Med campaign, having only one man wounded, and received only a shell hole through her forward funnel.
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The Italians had to change course from due south, while fleeing the British, to southwest, to avoid being pinned against Cape Spada . This gave the British the chance to catch the Italians, in spite of their superior speed.

Sydney's captain, John Collins, was decorated for his conduct of the battle, and Sydney was awarded honors for the Battle of Cape Spada, as it was called.

HMAS Sydney II Virtual Memorial - History The Ship
 
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stormturmoil said:
She may be basing this confidence on what she's learned/been told Warspite has gone through and achieved on the basis that Warspite is a Queen Elizabeth-Class; the trouble there is that Warspite's record is...atypical, to say the very least.
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True but something tells me that the Brits aren't prepared to go head-to-head with what is effectively the whole damn Italian Navy.
 
So far their active BBs are only Andrea Doria, Guilio Cesare and Caio Duilio. Conte di Cavour was sunk at Taranto. Littorio and Vittorio Veneto are still being repaired from Taranto I believe. Two Italian DDs have been mentioned previously being sunk, Turbine and Espero.

What remains unknown to us readers is the results of Cape Matapan, and what losses have happened to the Italian heavy cruiser divisions as yet.
 
MagisterAurelius said:
Littorio and Vittorio Veneto are still being repaired from Taranto I believe.
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@Skywalker_T-65 has clarified that the reference to Taranto is a remnant of a previous version of the chapter - they're actually repairing more recent battle damage.

MagisterAurelius said:
What remains unknown to us readers is the results of Cape Matapan, and what losses have happened to the Italian heavy cruiser divisions as yet.
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Matapan was a heavily German-influenced operation, who pushed for it (And hey, single battleship on a raiding mission with practically non-existant aircover, does this remind you of anything?). With Schreiber and his completely different management it's probable the whole thing has been butterflied away - though something probably happened given the Littorios are under repair.
 
Sideral said:
Then again, unless the Italians deploy all their battlefleet, they're probably only going to field a single CA division - even two British CA would keep them busy.
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There's only...14 heavy cruisers in the entire british fleet in the interwar/early war period. And none of them are a match for a Zara.

Hawkins, Frobisher, Cavendish of the Hawkins class. (Raliegh was broken up in the 20s and Effingham was sunk may, 1940)

The entirety of the County class and subclasses are around, though Australia and Canberra are part of the RAN. Berwick is escorting the northern convoys. Cornwall is in the Indian Ocean, playing cat and mouse with commerce raiders (she was sunk by the Raid on Trincomalee, '42). Cumberland was up in the North Arctic. Kent ate a fish in 1940 in the Med and spent a year being repaired before transferring North for convoy duty. Suffolk as far as i can tell was also in the north. Devonshire is nominally available, though she is in the eastern atlantic in late 1941. London is getting a facelift as she had cracks from superstructure weight until Feb 1942. Shropshire is undergoing refits. Sussex is sitting on her arse in Belfast (literally, her aft is gutted from bombing in 1940, she returns to service in Aug 1942). Norfolk is in the north atlantic. Dorsetshire was the one who finished off Bisko in may 1941, in November she was down in the south Atlantic, she was also sunk during the raid on Trincomalee in '42.

Exeter and York are either tied up in escort duty or sitting in Suda Bay as a floating AA battery. Exeter got btfo by Spee and just spent a year in dock getting repaired then stuck on convoy duty before transferring to the DEI, she was sunk at Java in '42. Depending on butterflies and how Crete went, York is sitting on a sandbar in Suda Bay with no boilers (May 1941).


So as you can see, there are very few heavy cruisers to go around. And the Admiralty will be less than keen on pulling cruisers from convoy escort duty with Bismarck still around.

The sticker here is that both the Town and Crown Colony class girls weigh just as much as their 'heavy' cruiser siblings, a side effect of the LNT. So if there are a few of those then the Italian cruisers will have a rougher time of things, even if they can weather the shellfire better. Also the Didos, who were light comparatively.
 
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Dirtnap said:
The sticker here is that both the Town and Crown Colony class girls weigh just as much as their 'heavy' cruiser siblings, a side effect of the LNT. So if there are a few of those then the Italian cruisers will have a rougher time of things, even if they can weather the shellfire better. Also the Didos, who were light comparatively.
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Wouldn't the British Cruisers have to get relatively close though to have a chance of penetrating the armored belt or armored deck that the Zara class has?
 
Sir_Braazmiir said:
Depends on how deep the British shells can penetrate.
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According to Naval Weps, the 6in/50 caliber BL MkXXIII can penetrate 2-inches of deck armor at 20,120-meters and 3-inches of NC side armor (what the heck does NC stand for?) at 11,430-meters. Yeah, getting through the armor of a Zara is going to be a lovely pain in the ass for the British and by lovely I mean nearly goddamned impossible.
 
Thorthemighty said:
According to Naval Weps, the 6in/50 caliber BL MkXXIII can penetrate 2-inches of deck armor at 20,120-meters and 3-inches of NC side armor (what the heck does NC stand for?) at 11,430-meters. Yeah, getting through the armor of a Zara is going to be a lovely pain in the ass for the British and by lovely I mean nearly goddamned impossible.
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I seem to recall there being a thing called "cemented armor", so NC armor likely is "non-cemented armor." Britain did use non-cemented armor in ships at this time for vertical armor less than 4".
 
Thorthemighty said:
Wouldn't the British Cruisers have to get relatively close though to have a chance of penetrating the armored belt or armored deck that the Zara class has?
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So first thing: Unless I'm mistaken, very few cruisers have citadels in the way that a battleship does. The armor belt on a cruiser covers machinery and magazines, with the possible exception of the Des Moines and Alaska classes. The armored box doesn't have the reserve buoyancy to hold up the rest of the ship the way USN battleship citadels do. From what I can recall off the top of my head, anyhow.

So you don't need penetrations to kill a cruiser. You can blast them under the waves with HE, since they don't have the reserve buoyancy to hold themselves out of the water. Now, yes, getting through the armor is a easier way to disable them, but on something as relatively small as a cruiser, it becomes much easier to knock out critical systems with HE hits. Or for a CPBC/AP shell to hit something substantial enough to trip the fuze on its way through the unarmored portions of the ship.
 
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PAGDTenno said:
So first thing: Unless I'm mistaken, very few cruisers have citadels in the way that a battleship does. The armor belt on a cruiser covers machinery and magazines, with the possible exception of the Des Moines and Alaska classes. The armored box doesn't have the reserve buoyancy to hold up the rest of the ship the way USN battleship citadels do. From what I can recall off the top of my head, anyhow.

So you don't need penetrations to kill a cruiser. You can blast them under the waves with HE, since they don't have the reserve buoyancy to hold themselves out of the water. Now, yes, getting through the armor is a easier way to disable them, but on something as relatively small as a cruiser, it becomes much easier to knock out critical systems with HE hits. Or for a CPBC/AP shell to hit something substantial enough to trip the fuze on its way through the unarmored portions of the ship.
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The theory behind the Mogamis, Brooklyns, and the Towns and other first generation LNT light cruisers was that they were big enough to carry enough armor to close the range with heavy cruisers (along with their escorting destroyers) and that the higher firing rate of their 6 inch main battery would carry the day for them.
 
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Jrandom said:
The theory behind the Mogamis, Brooklyns, and the Towns and other first generation LNT light cruisers was that they were big enough to carry enough armor to close the range with heavy cruisers (along with their escorting destroyers) and that the higher firing rate of their 6 inch main battery would carry the day for them.
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Minor problem, while the Zara class doesn't have enough reserve buoyancy to stay afloat, they do got one thing to their advantage. They got an armored citadel and given the crappy penetration of the 6in/50 caliber BL MK XXIII, landing a knock-out punch is going to be difficult at best and impossible at worst. Which means that they will be stuck with whittling the vessels down with a death of a thousand cuts type scenario.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Minor problem, while the Zara class doesn't have enough reserve buoyancy to stay afloat, they do got one thing to their advantage. They got an armored citadel and given the crappy penetration of the 6in/50 caliber BL MK XXIII, landing a knock-out punch is going to be difficult at best and impossible at worst. Which means that they will be stuck with whittling the vessels down with a death of a thousand cuts type scenario.
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Well, why else would the first generation LNT light cruisers be carrying 12-15 6 inch guns, if they weren't going for mass volume of fire, compared to the slower firing rate of most 8 inch main batteries? Since you don't need penetration kills to seriously mess up a heavy cruiser, a mass volume of fire that one of Towns can produce, is going to make a mess of any unarmored or lightly armored areas of the heavy cruiser.
 
Jrandom said:
Well, why else would the first generation LNT light cruisers be carrying 12-15 6 inch guns, if they weren't going for mass volume of fire, compared to the slower firing rate of most 8 inch main batteries? Since you don't need penetration kills to seriously mess up a heavy cruiser, a mass volume of fire that one of Towns can produce, is going to make a mess of any unarmored or lightly armored areas of the heavy cruiser.
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True, though getting hit by one will hurt, a lot. The rate of fire advantage most certainly goes to the British, but the firepower and durability advantage is undoubtedly in the hands of the Italians. Plus I also got the impression that the Brits don't realize that they are going be engaging pretty much every single heavy unit that the Italians have at their disposal that they can spare. Bottomline, I am expecting that the British will get in their fair share licks against the Italians but the Italians have numbers on their side.
 
Thorthemighty said:
True, though getting hit by one will hurt, a lot. The rate of fire advantage most certainly goes to the British, but the firepower and durability advantage is undoubtedly in the hands of the Italians. Plus I also got the impression that the Brits don't realize that they are going be engaging pretty much every single heavy unit that the Italians have at their disposal that they can spare. Bottomline, I am expecting that the British will get in their fair share licks against the Italians but the Italians have numbers on their side.
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The British light cruisers aren't going to be fighting the Italians one-on-one. There'll be a large contingent of destroyers (very few British cruisers, light or heavy go into battle without at least one flotilla) and aircraft, even if they're old "Stringbags". So no, the Italians won't have numbers on their side, even if they bet the house on one engagement against the British. Besides, only the Zaras have significant armor. The Trentos have less than the light cruisers.
 
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We should also remember the human factor involved. The british got better training and are expected to be agressive but intelligent opponents. The italians on the other hand got a serious deficit in morale so while firepower and armor is on their side, the fog of war added to the disturbing feeling of light naval guns making impacts against the armor might be enough for them to lose heart at the last second despite any real or apparent physical advantage they got. As always war does not come to the best armed troop, but one that can keep the morale of the troops, as well as their own, when things get hard.
 
Jrandom said:
The British light cruisers aren't going to be fighting the Italians one-on-one. There'll be a large contingent of destroyers (very few British cruisers, light or heavy go into battle without at least one flotilla) and aircraft, even if they're old "Stringbags". So no, the Italians won't have numbers on their side, even if they bet the house on one engagement against the British. Besides, only the Zaras have significant armor. The Trentos have less than the light cruisers.
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It really depends on the light cruiser subclass, the Duca degli Abruzzi sub-class was just about equal to the Zara class in terms of overall belt protection thanks to its 100mm thick belt with a 30mm thick decapping plate. Plus there is three British Battleships so we might be looking at a substantial number of British Destroyers. Regardless I am thinking that the numbers might still be a little lopsided.

Also @BF110C4 raises a very good point. Morale will play a factor in this fight but so can determination.
 
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The Regia Marina suffered from little of the morale issues that the Italian Army had to deal with. It's telling, in fact, that the RM was preparing to sortie in a (probable) Death Ride against the Salerno landings when the armistice (and word to go to British ports) came through. The Regia Marina was the only part of the Italian Military at that time that was still combat capable, and with good reason. I wouldn't say they have any more issues with morale than any other navy.
 
Skywalker_T-65 said:
The Regia Marina suffered from little of the morale issues that the Italian Army had to deal with. It's telling, in fact, that the RM was preparing to sortie in a (probable) Death Ride against the Salerno landings when the armistice (and word to go to British ports) came through. The Regia Marina was the only part of the Italian Military at that time that was still combat capable, and with good reason. I wouldn't say they have any more issues with morale than any other navy.
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Oh dear, so the British might be for a very rough time then. For some reason, I am seeing all three of the Queen Elizabeth sisters taking a pounding and if the Italians play their cards well, they might even put at least one of those Battleships in drydock, which means another vessel that will have to risk being torpedoed by U-Boats as she runs to the United States to get repaired.

Honestly, I see this being a rather brutal duel that will likely end with one capital ship from both sides on the bottom and the others needing drydock time.
 
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