Changing Destiny (Kancolle)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
- Location
- United States
They will have some very hungry ships. Though they may be able to hold parts of Indonesia for the oil.
Spectre
eternal servant to the Fire/EMS gods
- Location
- NY
Except unrefined crude is worthless and Japan still gets its merchant marine sunk to a ship since making IJN destroyers teenagers won't change the fact that they can't ASW to save their lives
- Location
- Kansas
Do we even know how much food a shipgirl needs to consume? For all we know, shipgirls could be cheaper to maintain then steel ships.
- Location
- USS Enterprise CV-6
IIRC it's assumed they'd need an equivalent amount of food to the fuel they eat. However they can eat actual fuel and such if needed.
Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
While I'm not going to comment on the IJN discussion other than to say not to derail the thread:
I've said before, in regards to Thompson and Schreiber. I'm very deliberately playing them and their story arcs as foils of each other. Thompson is the one with the smaller, but much more personal stakes. Japan is losing, full stop. His goals, as such, are always much smaller and more personal in scope. Protecting the girls. Trying to help keep more alive. Working the tightrope of hiding his past (good job, Enterprise) and working with his superiors.
Schreiber is always much more large in scope. His goals are saving Germany while trying to prevent the worst atrocities, on both sides of the fence. He has to walk a much more complicated path because of the Nazis. He has to manage more threads.
Of course, to some extent, they're coming together as we hit the middle of the fic. Schreiber's goals are becoming much more personal with how Blucher and Bismarck mean to him. And Thompson is going to have to manage much larger scopes, now that the cat is out of the bag.
Either way, the two of them have different arcs that are intended to reflect off each other.
I've said before, in regards to Thompson and Schreiber. I'm very deliberately playing them and their story arcs as foils of each other. Thompson is the one with the smaller, but much more personal stakes. Japan is losing, full stop. His goals, as such, are always much smaller and more personal in scope. Protecting the girls. Trying to help keep more alive. Working the tightrope of hiding his past (good job, Enterprise) and working with his superiors.
Schreiber is always much more large in scope. His goals are saving Germany while trying to prevent the worst atrocities, on both sides of the fence. He has to walk a much more complicated path because of the Nazis. He has to manage more threads.
Of course, to some extent, they're coming together as we hit the middle of the fic. Schreiber's goals are becoming much more personal with how Blucher and Bismarck mean to him. And Thompson is going to have to manage much larger scopes, now that the cat is out of the bag.
Either way, the two of them have different arcs that are intended to reflect off each other.
Why is it only WWII-era ships?
For that matter, WWII was 70 years before Kanti Collection in 2013. What if the method Thompson knows only works for Civil War era ships that are themselves 70 years old in 1940? He might only be able to summon ironclads using his particular method.
- Location
- Kansas
If so, then we can see a PROPER conclusion for the Battle of Hampton Roads.
- Location
- Europe
As for the IJN, can they, as in the US Armed Forces, develop the V-22 Osprey quite a few years early?
Because what better as a counter attack, then stealing the IJN Shinano?
Sure, if they can pull it off, she would need to spend quite a few years on some shipyard, to make her sea worthy, let alone modifying her to American standards, but just the technical data could mean quite a bit for say the Midway class her development.
And the fun fact is, with the IJN Shinano her size, they might potentially be able to use the B-25 Mitchell instead of a potential V-22 Osprey prototype, since getting such experimental gear it's design problems ironed out...
They just need more submarines there, in order to sink that escort fleet.
THAT would have way more impact then the Doolittle Raid - Wikipedia ever had, since it would mean stealing the IJN's latest carrier, while sinking it's escort fleet, the Raid makes them angry with a want to fight, stealing THAT ship, like that, makes them scarred for the potential implications and lets them check the IJN don't have a person from the future, in a place to do much, as well, as a bonus.
North American B-25 Mitchell - Wikipedia
Tiltrotor - Wikipedia
Tiltwing - Wikipedia
Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey - Wikipedia
Japanese aircraft carrier Shinano - Wikipedia
Flight deck - Wikipedia
Also, for later jetplanes, he might want to suggest to combine the Tiltjet - Wikipedia with the VTOL - Wikipedia principle like the Harrier Jump Jet - Wikipedia is employing.
Could make a nice three engine jetplane, you know, with tiltjets on the wings and VTOL in the tail, could thus give a very nice Business jet - Wikipedia variant, straight from the start.
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PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
Oh my God this idiocy. Didn't we beat it through your thick skull how real life isn't Hollywood enough times over on New Ironsides?
Stealing a destroyer, let alone a capital ship is near impossible. Let's assume you somehow get a skeleton crew aboard the ship, and ignore all the numerous difficulties therein. Getting the ship out requires little things like radio recognition codes, which, despite how good the USN was at reading the IJN's mail, it didn't have. Otherwise you're getting shot at lots.
And no, the technical data would not be "quite valuable for Midway development". It would, in fact, have absolutely zero bearing on Midway's design process. Midway is a derivative of an Essex design study meant to determine the effects of an armored flight deck on an Essex-class's air wing. The design philosophies are quite incompatible, and frankly the USN knows way more about how to design and build large carriers than the IJN ever did.
Plus, "refitting her to USN standards" would really mean rebuilding her entirely, since none of the spare parts she needs are in USN inventory, and the USN sure as shit ain't spending the money to spin up production for a single ship of at best questionable value.
And I just realized I missed your most flagrant offense of all: Assuming that development of the V-22 Osprey or any similar thing is happening over forty years ahead of schedule, when helicopters of useful size still have yet to finish development, and a helicopter is a much simpler engineering problem than a tiltrotor.
Stealing a destroyer, let alone a capital ship is near impossible. Let's assume you somehow get a skeleton crew aboard the ship, and ignore all the numerous difficulties therein. Getting the ship out requires little things like radio recognition codes, which, despite how good the USN was at reading the IJN's mail, it didn't have. Otherwise you're getting shot at lots.
And no, the technical data would not be "quite valuable for Midway development". It would, in fact, have absolutely zero bearing on Midway's design process. Midway is a derivative of an Essex design study meant to determine the effects of an armored flight deck on an Essex-class's air wing. The design philosophies are quite incompatible, and frankly the USN knows way more about how to design and build large carriers than the IJN ever did.
Plus, "refitting her to USN standards" would really mean rebuilding her entirely, since none of the spare parts she needs are in USN inventory, and the USN sure as shit ain't spending the money to spin up production for a single ship of at best questionable value.
And I just realized I missed your most flagrant offense of all: Assuming that development of the V-22 Osprey or any similar thing is happening over forty years ahead of schedule, when helicopters of useful size still have yet to finish development, and a helicopter is a much simpler engineering problem than a tiltrotor.
- Location
- Europe
Why do you think I suggested the B-25 as a alternative to a tiltrotor cargo plane design?
That part was more as a way to get some people thinking about potential uses they could pull with such a system and thus get it started earlier and with a better end product focus, straight from the start.
Might mean they start experimenting with say a B-25 hull in order to test some things, not that it would be usefull for quite some time, though.
Which could thus potentially prevent Saraotaga her nuclear blast ending, by having her being used as a test ship for potential design upgrades, like say a more modern engine room, by replacing her Turbo-Electric drive train by lets say, a Diesel generator - Wikipedia and other such options, including testing VTOL marine insertion crafts and so on.
Some eggs need to rest for a while, before they can be used well, VTOL might be one of them, best to plant some ideas now, while proposing potential attack planes & upgrades, so they can be use later on, to save the ship when the war has ended.
As for one of the things they might learn from it, is where the IJN stands in a technical ability point of view.
Learn the flaws in the Yamato hull design (big plus, right there), experiment with a angled flightdeck and having B-25 sized planes on board a carrier, among things.
Then there is the fact it would cause quite a shockwave true the whole IJN, for if the USA can pull that one off, what else could they pull.
The sinking of the escort ships would have three big plusses, less AAA guns, distract the crew of the Shinano in resque work, while looking for those submarines and preventing them from stopping you from running off with the ship.
Getting enough people on board of the ship, fast enough, is the problem.
Same for preventing the crew from sinking her in order to prevent her capture & use by their enemies.
Which includes the on board code books and so on.
And I know that it has quite a few problems, but you think the Doolite Raid did not?
The question is, can they be solved?
Because, ask yourself this, if it could be done, how big would the moral boost be for the USA forces?
So it certainly is something for the dear (SI) admiral to think about and propose, even, as a potential plan, that still needs a lot of work to even get close to working.
But how many of her crew would have a weapon, at all, that ain't some tool or pipe?
It's not as if boarding actions happen that often, anymore, nor was she fully equipped either.
Remember, the IJN Shinano is of the size as the earliest SUPER-CARRIERS where, meaning that if captured, they could evaluate some things without costing them the money to even build it, even if it means it's just sitting in the Harbour of Pearl Harbour, all the time..
So that in and of itself, could alter the design of the Essex/Midway class, their design.
Ad to this that the Shinano was a converted battleship and a pure carrier designed version would be even more powerfull, especially without that stupid jeep-carrier principle the IJN gave the Shinano.
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PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
Oh my god. The Doolittle Raid's problems were "Can a B-25 take off from a carrier's flight deck?" "Can we get a carrier within range of Tokyo?"
Easily solved. Measure an 824-foot section of runway, and keep loading down the B-25 until it gets too heavy to take off in that space, then futz around with weight versus takeoff distance until you have a nice balance between payload and number of bombers based on takeoff distance.
The B-25 is not going to manage a 900-foot landing. It doesn't have a tailhook to catch arresting gear (which Shinano's crew isn't going to set up for enemy aircraft anyways). If you try crash- landing it, there's a decent chance you'll kill or injure your own people, and you're not getting enough B-25s onto her deck to bring enough people to take over the carrier.
As for morale... That's nice. But by the time this is even remotely possible, the USN is stomping all over the IJN, and the Essex Swarm is going to come online. Morale is flying high, and anyone who seriously proposes something with such high risk and low reward is going to get chucked out of the service and into a loony bin.
Shinano's design has no bearing on supercarrier design. She is not going to alter the design of Essex or Midway. Essex is finalized, Midway will be very soon, so even if the IJN hit on some revolutionary idea in carrier design (doubtful), there will be absolutely zero knock-on effects for those two designs.
And a "pure carrier" version is just a 65,000 ton carrier... or Forrestal. Which the USN is better off doing as they did OTL and designing from the ground up, since a deep hull has to have the deck edge elevators accounted for in the hull structure.
Easily solved. Measure an 824-foot section of runway, and keep loading down the B-25 until it gets too heavy to take off in that space, then futz around with weight versus takeoff distance until you have a nice balance between payload and number of bombers based on takeoff distance.
The B-25 is not going to manage a 900-foot landing. It doesn't have a tailhook to catch arresting gear (which Shinano's crew isn't going to set up for enemy aircraft anyways). If you try crash- landing it, there's a decent chance you'll kill or injure your own people, and you're not getting enough B-25s onto her deck to bring enough people to take over the carrier.
As for morale... That's nice. But by the time this is even remotely possible, the USN is stomping all over the IJN, and the Essex Swarm is going to come online. Morale is flying high, and anyone who seriously proposes something with such high risk and low reward is going to get chucked out of the service and into a loony bin.
Shinano's design has no bearing on supercarrier design. She is not going to alter the design of Essex or Midway. Essex is finalized, Midway will be very soon, so even if the IJN hit on some revolutionary idea in carrier design (doubtful), there will be absolutely zero knock-on effects for those two designs.
And a "pure carrier" version is just a 65,000 ton carrier... or Forrestal. Which the USN is better off doing as they did OTL and designing from the ground up, since a deep hull has to have the deck edge elevators accounted for in the hull structure.
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- Location
- Europe
Hijacking the Shinano would essentially be a suicide mission. At dock; All it takes is for one observant Japanese dockworker to notice something's off.
"Commander Mizushima, There are foreign dogs on the Shinano!"
"Nani?"
As for a hijacking at sea...
"Commander Mizushima, There are foreign dogs parachuting onto us...oh wait, they missed."
"Nani?"
"Commander Mizushima, There are foreign dogs on the Shinano!"
"Nani?"
As for a hijacking at sea...
"Commander Mizushima, There are foreign dogs parachuting onto us...oh wait, they missed."
"Nani?"
- Location
- Kansas
Sir, did you just suggest we make the b-25 a tiltrotor? Cause if you did, I would really like for you to go into EXACT detail for how we are suppose to turn a fixed wing medium bomber into a long range VTOL tiltrotor.
- Location
- USS Enterprise CV-6
Also Shinano was a shitty design even from a conversion standpoint. She couldn't come close to carrying as many aircraft as any of the Essex class could. If they steal anything it should be torpedoes since those work a lot better then the Mark 14 and are arguably the best torps fielded by any navy in the war at any point.
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Meh. Shinano is a flawed support carrier. It's not something to be prioritized. Essexes outperform any of the IJN's carriers anytime.
Tech is not a problem for the USN. They're already in the lead and extending that over time. Logistics and production aren't a problem either, for the same reasons.
I think Thompson would be more concerned with improving naval tactics and procedures, ironing out that torpedo issue, encouraging better anti-air, and making sure the ships and crew are all right. Those are within his skillset and jurisdiction as an admiral.
Tech is not a problem for the USN. They're already in the lead and extending that over time. Logistics and production aren't a problem either, for the same reasons.
I think Thompson would be more concerned with improving naval tactics and procedures, ironing out that torpedo issue, encouraging better anti-air, and making sure the ships and crew are all right. Those are within his skillset and jurisdiction as an admiral.
CompassJimbo
Where’s Your North?
- Location
- The former Rubber Capital of the World
Except oxygen torpedoes, kickass as they are, tend to explode when they're shot at. Akizuki. Chōkai. Chikuma. All of them went down when their torpedoes were hit and cooked off. How many American destroyers suffered that fate?
Mega1987
A TTK somewhere at Kancolle's Iwagawa Airfield
- Location
- somewhere at Kancolle's Iwagawa Airfield
that's how well made those japanese fuses are...
- Location
- Europe
More like landing B-25's with parachute breaks, on the IJN Shinano.
If need be, with a way to remove the wheels from their locked position, from the exit hatch, so the pilots can also get out, while flipping the switch that let it rol off the ship and thus clear the lane for the next plane, if the parachutes are not good enough.
Too bad they could not drop a Stuar tank (or so) on the deck, though, the reaction to that would probably be funny.
Landing, as it is, would already be dangerous, even with the wider deck, thanks to the ship's AAA batteries, meaning that forcing the Shinano into a evening search & resque position of her escorts would be needed.
If only they had some gliders for the first wave.
Different wing setup, using the original wing mounting points to attach a slighly heavier wing version.
Essex-class aircraft carrier - Wikipedia says 90 to 100.
Japanese aircraft carrier Shinano - Wikipedia says:
It looks to me that her state of construction is ideal for a strike team to hit her, quite well, most doors that could hinder them, are missing.
Flooding compartmens is hard by not being able to keep the flooding to one sector because of this.
The only real problem is the about 2500 men on board, plus what ever they could potentially pick up if her escorts get sunken.
I do think it's possible, but it certainly is high risk, especially since you need to get a carrier group with a supply tanker near enough to get a change to refuel her fuel tanks.
Main point would be the shock that Grand Theft Capital Ship under sail, is possible, at all.
It also would let them sink Yamato faster, the next year, by knowing where to hit her.
But the blow to the IJN moral, when they find out about it...
True, but having the IJN Shinano around when that nuke testing is happening, might mean that the Saratoga won't be used for that test program, thus testing how well a fixed and improved Yamato hull could handel it and thus their future carrier designs like the Forrestal.
It could also mean that the Forrestal class is created earlier, meaning less Essex/Midway classes around to be used for that test, as well.
Especially if mister SI happens to bring up the idea of a Supplier type of warship, thus giving them another option to use those hulls for.
Hell, that never finished sixth Iowa, what if instead of looking for a carrier conversion, it was finished as a supplier?
There are quite a few fun options to create butterflies, in that respect.
And I expect the dear admiral to focus on keeping Saratoga alive for as long as possible and creating multiply reasons for her not to be used for that nuke test, is only of the good.
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UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Any old ship could have been used for Crossroads. Shinano is not a factor.
And the posts above have already mentioned why it's impractical to try and capture a ship at all.
IIRC, support carriers do not work with, and are redundant to, USN doctrine. All US carriers have the facilities for the role that a dedicated support carrier ala HMS Unicorn can do. Each US carrier has the shops, equipment, and people to fix up the planes. IJN and RN carriers don't. They can only do maintenance, which is why they have those support carriers.
And the posts above have already mentioned why it's impractical to try and capture a ship at all.
IIRC, support carriers do not work with, and are redundant to, USN doctrine. All US carriers have the facilities for the role that a dedicated support carrier ala HMS Unicorn can do. Each US carrier has the shops, equipment, and people to fix up the planes. IJN and RN carriers don't. They can only do maintenance, which is why they have those support carriers.
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PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
Screams internally.
The C-130 Hercules, specifically designed for short landings, needs a minimum airstrip length of 3000 feet, excepting the specially modified one that landed on the Forrestal in the 90's. That one had specially improved anti-skid braking systems that won't be available in 1950, let alone 1944. And the B-25 was notoriously difficult to land in the first place, on an airstrip and now you want to suggest a carrier landing!? This may be the stupidest notion on this thread, and that's saying something. Even with parachutes, it's probably going to skid off the end of Shinano's deck unless you crash land it, and there's a decent chance even then.
Put bluntly, this whole idea is a particularly elaborate way to commit mass suicide.
That's not how any of this works.
Not even remotely close. If it was that simple, tilt-rotors would have come before helicopters, not the other way around. Just.... stop. Please.
You maybe should have read a little more carefully. Essex's air wing is fully assembled and ready to spot. Shinano's (except the first 40 or so planes) is disassembled for transport and must be put together before it can be flown. And if you think you can put together 120 planes in the middle of a fight, boy, you got another think coming.
No. It's not. We've beaten to death the reasons it's not possible, and your persistent refusal to acknowledge the reasons is beyond obnoxious.
I don't think you know how aiming at ships works. This isn't a video game, you can't aim for "critical points". Hitting in the first place is hard enough with unguided munitions. You aim for the ship and hope for a hit anywhere on the ship. If you wave a magic wand and give the USN Shinano to pick apart, you get a more detailed section in the post-war Technical Mission report on IJN carrier construction. Yamato still gets smashed flat by overwhelming airpower. The reason she took so long to sink is she got hammer-and-anviled, and 70,000 tons of ship takes a long time to sink. The detail design plans for the ship wouldn't do a thing about that. Musashi sunk faster because she only got hit on one side and capsized.
As for IJN morale, the IJN managed to conceal the loss of four fleet carriers out of six for over a year. And their morale is already in the toilet anyhow.
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- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Minor point of order.
In story the IJN has only lost one carrier (Kaga) so far in exchange for 'killing' Saratoga. I'm pretty sure the survivors of that strike overestimated the damage that Sister Sara took (a notable RL problem for everyone but especially the Japanese). Combined with their success at Pearl Harbor and the IJN morale should be pretty high at this stage of the war in December 1941/January 1942.
Reality has yet to set in for Japan, although by the time the Kido Butai is combat-ready after their airgroup losses, it will likely be about a 5-5 CV fight in the Pacific with Akagi, CarDIv 2, and CarDiv 6 versus Lexington, Yorktown, Enterprise, and potentially a repaired Saratoga and newly commissioned Hornet or Wasp. So 1942 promises to be just like OTL filled with carrier battles until the Essex swarm arrives in 1943.
- Location
- Kansas
Right, so I asked an airplane engineer about converting a b-25 into a tiltrotor. His first response was "that's stupid". After a bit of talking, he said you can turn anything into a tiltrotor... as long as you have the money for it.
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
Point of order, I was describing how the IJN concealed its losses after OTL Midway.
Shinano won't be in the condition Vianca is describing until 1944, by which time the Essex Swarm will be fully online. By 1944, IJN morale will be in the toilet, and the USN will be flying high.
So you know. I'm really not sure what you're correcting in my post.
I mean with a big enough budget you could "convert" a four-stack tin can into a CVN.
I don't know why you would, but you could technically do it.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Sorry, I misread it. Mea culpa. My apologies.
To be honest, I just skip over Vianca's posts since the noise to signal ratio is so damn high in them and the stupid makes my blood pressure spike.
Did you include 'Must be done with 1940s technology and design tools'?