Short term repair priority would probably getting Saratoga back into operational status.The Battle of Wake has already proven that carrier groups alone can fend off Japanese offensives, therefor they want as many of them operational as possible. The battleline can wait.
Changing Destiny (Kancolle)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
Wobulator
Within 1 AU of you!
- Location
- Mars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Slow is useless. Nagato can control the range and engagement however it damn well pleases with its 5.5kt advantage. Fusou and Yamashiro still outgun and outrun any 14" standard, and the Kongou sisters are hilariously faster than anything else near their weight.
Plus, these are pre-modernization Standards. They functionally have no anti-aircraft, and that's a death knell for their usefulness on its own. They can't control engagements, they can't run, and they can't defend themselves from carriers. In a straight-up slugging match? Yeah, they'd fare well. It's a pity that that never happened and never will happen.
Um. No.
They're too slow to be of any use here. They take forever to get into position, they take forever to get out of position, and they need a carrier babysitting them the whole way.
As for "being hard to sink"... I'd like to see how they fare against a dozen Long Lances. Probably not well, though.
And then the Yamato runs away, picking them off with ease with its far superior rangefinders, guns, and armor. Remember, this is pre-modernization, so no radar.
Again, in a brawling scenario, the USN might have a chance, but the Japanese will not engage that. Not when they can sink the Standards from far outside their effective engagement ranges with carriers and their own battleships.
- Location
- Perth, Western Australia
Would that mean the will be a Richardson-class carrier instead of the Nimitz-class a lot later on then? Hmm...
Nothing can survive a dozen Long Lances, so that is rather meaningless to say.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Surigao Strait says that the Fusous are sunk versus a 14" Standard like Pennsylvania. As for the Kongous, Kirishima's demise points out that speed is not everything.
Sure on a bathtub or on the drawing boards ship A has an advantage over ship b< but there are a lot of other factors that go into that (night, bad weather, crew training, leadership).
The IJN can't aggressively deploy their battleships anyway because they don't have the fuel and oilers to do that. Which is why historically the IJN did not use the Nagatos or Yamatos until Leyte, specifically because they did not have the fuel to sortie them. The Kongous were used at Guadalcanal specifically because they burned less fuel.
It is academic anyway, since the IJN can't deploy their battlefleet until they secure the DEI refineries and build the oilers and basing infrastructure to support them, and the USN does not have the fast oilers (yet) to support major fleet activity in the Pacific. USN carriers or Standard Battleships, pick one to gas up with the seven fleet oilers you have in 1942.
It is academic anyway since the Japanese can't afford to sortie Yam-yams and Mushi since they don't have the fuel to do it currently, and won't until 1942-43.
However, the Standards from Pearl will be modernized since they are in drydock already getting repaired. Having proved thanks to California that the Standards need more AAA badly and can be killed by airplanes, Ari for instance will get more AAA, possibly radar and better secondary weapons during her unplanned trip to Mare Island or Bremerton to get repaired. You already have her up on blocks, why not improve her while you fix the bomb and torpedo damage? Tennessee for instance got early radar while being repaired from Pearl IOTL.
Last edited:
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
I'm going to point out that Nagato/Mutsu have no immune zone (or a skinny enough one that it might as well not exist) against Colorado, Maryland, or West Virginia, while the Standards (especially those three) have generous immune zones against Nagato and Mutsu.
It doesn't matter if you can control the range if you have to enter the enemy's effective range to hurt them, which really powerfucks the Kongou sisters (again, doesn't matter how fast you are, if your enemy can shoot you first, they win.) The Fusous and Ises don't fare quite as badly, but they still have guns with inferior penetration and less armor, so again, they have to come into a range where the Standards can hurt them if they want to hurt the Standards.
So even ignoring all the logistical difficulties involved in that particular face-off happening, the Standards can handle anything in the IJN battle-line short of Yamato herself very roughly indeed. And Yamato's vaunted optics aren't the advantage you'd think. The difficulty in optical fire control is rangefinding, and we have explicit references to radar rangefinders being installed on some of the Standards in their pre-Pearl refits (See, Ch. 2). Whether or not that happened OTL, I can't say off the top of my head.
To move to more realistic possibilities, I'm just going to point out that SoDak won't commission until March, and won't really be combat ready for at least another few months - probably not until August or so, as OTL. You could maybe shave a month off of that, but that's the earliest any of the SoDaks are showing up to the party. Indiana and Big Mamie will be ready about the same time, but the logistical constraints that kept them in the Atlantic OTL still apply here.
It doesn't matter if you can control the range if you have to enter the enemy's effective range to hurt them, which really powerfucks the Kongou sisters (again, doesn't matter how fast you are, if your enemy can shoot you first, they win.) The Fusous and Ises don't fare quite as badly, but they still have guns with inferior penetration and less armor, so again, they have to come into a range where the Standards can hurt them if they want to hurt the Standards.
So even ignoring all the logistical difficulties involved in that particular face-off happening, the Standards can handle anything in the IJN battle-line short of Yamato herself very roughly indeed. And Yamato's vaunted optics aren't the advantage you'd think. The difficulty in optical fire control is rangefinding, and we have explicit references to radar rangefinders being installed on some of the Standards in their pre-Pearl refits (See, Ch. 2). Whether or not that happened OTL, I can't say off the top of my head.
To move to more realistic possibilities, I'm just going to point out that SoDak won't commission until March, and won't really be combat ready for at least another few months - probably not until August or so, as OTL. You could maybe shave a month off of that, but that's the earliest any of the SoDaks are showing up to the party. Indiana and Big Mamie will be ready about the same time, but the logistical constraints that kept them in the Atlantic OTL still apply here.
Last edited:
Wobulator
Within 1 AU of you!
- Location
- Mars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Except speed gives you many more opportunities to not get hit.
If you're faster, you can get in and out faster, you can dodge better, you can maneuver better, you can do everything that helps with "not getting hit by torpedoes" better
...yes, a single battleship does not fare well versus six. Six modernized, radar-equipped battleships, no less. In a battle that plays precisely to their strengths and none of Yamashiro's.
This really does not say anything about the quality of the Fusous vs. the standards.
Again, a slugging match is precisely what she was designed to avoid. The Kongous were battlecruisers, and got their asses handed to them when they came up against battleships in a close-range brawl.
Of course, but that goes both ways.
Um. Chapter two of what, precisely?
Ehhhh. The whole concept of an "immunity zone" is kinda silly, especially here.
Either they're far enough that the IJN ships can control the range(and therefore just... go outside the immunity zone) or they're close enough that your armor doesn't matter.
Also, where're you getting the info on the immunity zones?
Last edited:
CompassJimbo
Where’s Your North?
- Location
- The former Rubber Capital of the World
To which I ask: What strengths? Even the Japanese considered the Fusō-class to be terrible battleships. The extra guns screwed with the layout of their machinery spaces, and I'm fairly sure that they're prone to magazine cookoffs between the arrangement and number of their guns, and the relatively thin armor protection for them. Compare that to the sensable 4x3, AB-XY layout of the Standards, as well as the fact that they were laid down before Jutland and had an All-or-Nothing armor layout, which maximizes protection of the parts you don't want being shot to pieces. Japanese boilers tended to fail fairly quickly when taking hits, while, according to someone on Discord who has ready access to this kind of info, the Standards' boilers needed "repeated hits by large sledgehammers" to break. The only thing Fusō and Yamashiro have going for them is speed, but they aren't that much faster than the Standards.
PAGDTenno
Verified Warmind. Probably on fire.
- Location
- South Carolina
I'll second the assessment of the durability of USN boilers. Going by War Damage reports, the only thing that would take them permanently out of commission was direct hits from ordnance.
This story.
This story.
Last edited:
Wobulator
Within 1 AU of you!
- Location
- Mars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Speed and controlling engagements, mostly. They might not be worlds faster, but they can at least run away from a fight they don't want to take.
I agree that the Fusous were awful- but it's not like Surigao Strait was giving them a fair shot, either.
Wobulator
Within 1 AU of you!
- Location
- Mars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Sure, but fundamentally, the entire concept they were built around is useless. Battle lines don't work anymore, and the 21kt ships that are built around that concept don't either.
Archduke
Don't Take Geology Puns For Granite
- Location
- Texas
I don't know, those things worked pretty well at Surigao Strait and for Shore Bombardment. And sure, the tactics they were designed for are obsolete now, but that doesn't mean you can't use them for other roles. That way, you can keep your more modern BBs available for frontline duties.
Wobulator
Within 1 AU of you!
- Location
- Mars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Six battleships versus one.
That's a fight that's impossible to lose. You could be using boarding tactics and still probably win that, without even counting the cruisers and destroyers.
And they can't do shore bombardment. Not in contested waters. They're too slow, have too bad AA, and take up too much oil.
Sir_Gaea
More Stories Please
- Location
- The Region
You don't perform shore bombardment before the area is clear of hostile ships. That is a given.
Also, @Wobulator how do you want battleships to perform, just curious.
Also, @Wobulator how do you want battleships to perform, just curious.
Last edited:
Archduke
Don't Take Geology Puns For Granite
- Location
- Texas
The USN knows that. Every time they did a shore bombardment, they had superiority over the area. I don't see why that would be different this time around. The Navy isn't stupid. They'd send escorts, not just the BBs. And by the time that the Standards are back on the line, Japan will be on the defensive.
But why do you keep talking about the standards with pre-Pearl Harbour refits? They aren't going to be appearing in the story like that at all. They will be rejoining the war with all the bells and whistles.
Wobulator
Within 1 AU of you!
- Location
- Mars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Unless it's Guadalcanal. Then it happens all the time.
Because, OTL, that didn't happen until mid-late 1943, and by then, you have the Essexes coming online, which kinda makes everything here moot, if only because they're too slow to keep up.
Maybe it's just my rampant gunship fanboying, but I want an actual Kantai Kessen. The IJN surface fleet vs. the USN surface fleet in a knock-down fight.
- Location
- Pacific Northwest
Apparently Surigao Strait wasn't enough for you, was it? Too bad history cheated you.
Wobulator
Within 1 AU of you!
- Location
- Mars
- Pronouns
- She/Her
See: one battleship vs. 6
And it's not that history cheated me. The USN did everything it could to avoid it and the Japanese pursued it to the point of idiocy. I understand why it didn't happen- why that sort of fight hasn't happened since Jutland.
But it could. If the USN gets a little more cocky with its navy due to taking fewer losses at Pearl, if the IJN acts a little more cautiously after losing Kaga, it could.
CV12Hornet
Riter.
- Location
- Tacoma, Washington
Or just handwave away Pearl and have the Thrusters win the doctrinal argument in the 1930s. And have the American and Japanese carrier fleets maul but not destroy each other. Then you have an actual battleship brawl in the works, and Yasen Kassen is unlikely to prevent that.
- Location
- Barcelona, Catalunya, EU (for now)
Surigao strait says nothing about ship quality.
Surigao only confirmed Stalin's statement that "quantity has a quality of its own".
Also, IIRC, Pennsylvania specifically didn't fire a single shot in Surigao. It's commented in BelaBatt that one of the reasons Pennssylvania is such a bitter bitch is precisely that she could not even fire in that battle, not land a hit, but even open fire. The 16 inch equipped Standards took all the fun in that battle.
Yeah. People tend to forget the odds for both sides in Surigao strait.
Japan side: 2 battleships, 1 heavy cruiser, and four destroyers. That's the Nishimura fleet. Which was later joined by the Shima fleet, which added two more heavy cruisers, one light cruiser, and four additional destroyers. And that's it.
US side: 6 battleships, 10 heavy cruisers, and several DesRons worth of destroyers, plus air support and land support.
And let's not forget that while the Nishimura and Shima fleets were advancing through a strait, which limits the mobility of a fleet, the US forces were comfortably deployed at the exit point with plenty of space to do so.
That's not an engagement, no matter how you look at it: it's a curbstomping waiting to happen. And it actually is what happened.
In any other Navy not the IJN, the Fusous would have been very welcome on their own merits, because they were pretty decent battleships; not awesome, but capable of doing any job that required a BB. In the IJN, though, they commited the unforgivable sin of not living up to the expectations of IJN High Command, and were deemed obsolete (which actually is the fate of any piece of tech) and relegated to secondary positions until they were used as sacrificial pawns in the Leyte campaign.
- Location
- In the depts of despair.
For those dreams of big guns facing each other on a surface duel there always an alternate Samar where Halsey left the Iowa battleline covering the support units in the fleet and the Taffies couldn't send any air support due to fear of hitting allied vessels (the only reason why there weren't blue-on-blue at Samar is that the difference in sizes was so huge that even the pilots with the worst skills at enemy recognition couldn't get their destroyers confused with the japanese BB's and CA's).
Back on topic, I like the idea of stealing a march from under the japanese and getting there a large enough garrison protect Rabaul as well as the necessary gear to create a naval base there but the logistics allow it before the japanese are ready to conquer that particular position?
Back on topic, I like the idea of stealing a march from under the japanese and getting there a large enough garrison protect Rabaul as well as the necessary gear to create a naval base there but the logistics allow it before the japanese are ready to conquer that particular position?
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Well, the historical cruiser flotilla that supported the capture of Rabaul (4th Fleet/South Seas Force) were the folks who got their nose bloodied at Wake One and then captured Wake during Wake Two IOTL. So this time around, they got two black eyes and that will have effects on their use to take Rabaul. It is unclear if 4th Fleet lost any cruisers or destroyers in Second Wake (we know Kido Butai is short 1 CV and 1 DD now), or they retired cleanly to Truk/Marianas.
Historically the Australians had a 1400 man garrison covering the port, seaplane base, and airstrip there, the Japanese invaded with 5000 troops starting January 23rd 1942, and after Rabaul they moved on Port Moseby. Since the same ships took Wake and then Rabaul, I deduce that Wake had a higher priority in OTL Japanese strategic thought (as it threatens the Home Islands) than Rabaul (which threatens Truk).
This means that there is a chance that Rabaul might be reinforced before the Japanese strike for it, especially depending on what other events impact the Japanese timetables. Setbacks in the DEI/Malaya/Philippines would massively impact Japanese timetables just like Wake is doing. Once the Southern Resource Area is secured, then the Japanese will be looking to firm up their perimeter at Rabaul and Wake.
You would need to get the troops from someplace, either ANZAC or USA, but Rabaul itself was a somewhat developed deep water port as the capital of that administrative area. Mainly you need the IJN to be delayed enough so that reinforcements reach Rabaul, or USN/RAN/RNZN naval presence there discourages adventurism. That said, while starting the South Pacific counterattack from Rabaul has major benefits for the Allies, it actually helps the Japanese as well by causing them to base deeper inside their defenses rather than parking Combined Fleet at Truk like they did most of 1942-43.
Last edited:
Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
The aussies were extremely reluctant to move troops off the mainland. To get the troops to reinforce Rabaul...there's a couple of options. There's a reinforcement convoy already enroute to the PI in OTL. Divert them to Rabaul or PM. Another is to have the PM of aussieland burn a fuck ton of his political power and get 1st Div to be shipped up to PNG, there's also an Aussie brigade and components of the 5th Div (i think) in Singapore but they'll likely stay in place to defend.
Once you get the men ashore though you'll need supply and equipment.
The real problem is shipping, there's a lot of bodies to be moved while at the same time needing fuel to move them, to move the fuel you also need fuel and it takes time to get it to AUS.
(I have played War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition and its a game of logistics as the Allies. Logistics and getting engineers in place to build bases)
Once you get the men ashore though you'll need supply and equipment.
The real problem is shipping, there's a lot of bodies to be moved while at the same time needing fuel to move them, to move the fuel you also need fuel and it takes time to get it to AUS.
(I have played War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition and its a game of logistics as the Allies. Logistics and getting engineers in place to build bases)