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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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Well done @Skywalker_T-65 well done it was quite the twist when the navy swooped in to reinforce the marines.

Holding the line is going well and im interested to see how the battle for Singapore goes. Also japanese supermen tearing them apart is something going on there or is it just an exaggeration?

Also watched thread for the GuP fic im interested to see how that plays out.
 
BF110C4 said:
they will pay for the drinks in the nearest bar.
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Marines: "Nearest decent bar or bar in general?"
Navy: "Just any random bar will do."
Marines: *looks shiftily at each other "..."
Navy: "Why are you stripping?"
Marines: "While the boys are over there digging out the alcohol stores from that collapsed building over there" *points* "There's a sand bar right there we can all stand on very safely, the anti-shark netting around it is still intact, and we could all use a good warm wash before getting into the drink." (i.e. it's where the Wake troops wash)
Navy: "This is real life, not a Charlie Chaplin comedy! And the drink is just another word for the water, right?" *gestures out toward the bay*

*some distance away* Devereux: "I get the feeling the men are slinging really bad jokes around again... ah forget it, victory excuses a lot."

Seraphim500 said:
japanese supermen
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It's the same as "any German box tank is a Tiger" problem. The Japanese are moving through jungle faster than they can imagine using a mix of bicycles and advanced foraging (AKA "Watch the monkeys. Anything they can eat, you can eat") and the local garrison troops are low on morale, training, equipment, etc.
 
Problem here is that while the AA firepower of Saratoga is better than it was at the start of the war. The AA firepower still isn't the guns everywhere that it was at the end of the war. No VT-Fuses yet, no Bofors, all that the American ships got for AA defense are their 5in/38 and 5in/25 caliber DP guns, 1.1in Chicago Pianos, 20mm Orelinkons, .50 caliber machine guns, and for the guys that get really close .30-caliber machine guns. Not really spectacular when you think about it.

Thus you got to throw more steel upwards than you would with VT-fuses in order to kill enemy planes. Which means you are bound to get more leakers through the defensive cauldron of fire. Which means more planes will get through the defensive fire and could land hits on the flattops.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Problem here is that while the AA firepower of Saratoga is better than it was at the start of the war. The AA firepower still isn't the guns everywhere that it was at the end of the war. No VT-Fuses yet, no Bofors, all that the American ships got for AA defense are their 5in/38 and 5in/25 caliber DP guns, 1.1in Chicago Pianos, 20mm Orelinkons, .50 caliber machine guns, and for the guys that get really close .30-caliber machine guns. Not really spectacular when you think about it.

Thus you got to throw more steel upwards than you would with VT-fuses in order to kill enemy planes. Which means you are bound to get more leakers through the defensive cauldron of fire. Which means more planes will get through the defensive fire and could land hits on the flattops.
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The Mark 37 can consistently throw AAC shells close enough to disrupt attack runs, so it's not quite as bad as that.
 
If the fighter CAP is done well, only a few planes would be able to get through to meet the AA guns, I think.
 
Skywalker_T-65 said:
"Go!" She shouted at the planes, taking off to bomb the American carrier that a scout had happened upon while patrolling around Wake. "Make sure you don't miss anything!"
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A carrier. So her scout spotted one carrier when there are actually two present in Sister Sara and Little E. While Thompson and Halsey know that at least one Japanese CV present because of the Zeroes. I actually can't think of any carrier battle where the Japanese were successful in their searches and the USN was not, in most of them either the USN spotted the Japanese first (Midway) or everyone spotted everyone else at the same time (Santa Cruz, Eastern Solomons, Coral Sea).

Of course considering ship identification issues, the Japanese might be gunning for a carrier that isn't (see: Neosho at Coral Sea). Either way this looks to be a very interesting battle with the forces equal and two of Japan's best in Kaga and Hiryuu versus Enterprise and Saratoga. The IJN has more veteran pilots and better torpedo bombers, the USN has better command and control, better damcon*, and better dive bombers.

*I'm certain that both Sara and E pushed their admirals hard to press the issue of damage control training for their crew and some of the mid-war DC lessons like venting avgas lines once they were able to communicate. Either way, considering their historical track record, Hiryuu is going to have a very tough time putting these two carriers on the bottom. Sara took a beating multiple times and was able to come back to port for repairs and Enterprise...nuff said.
 
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SisterJeanne said:
A carrier. So her scout spotted one carrier when there are actually two present in Sister Sara and Little E. While Thompson and Halsey know that at least one Japanese CV present because of the Zeroes. I actually can't think of any carrier battle where the Japanese were successful in their searches and the USN was not, in most of them either the USN spotted the Japanese first (Midway) or everyone spotted everyone else at the same time (Santa Cruz, Eastern Solomons, Coral Sea).

Of course considering ship identification issues, the Japanese might be gunning for a carrier that isn't (see: Neosho at Coral Sea). Either way this looks to be a very interesting battle with the forces equal and two of Japan's best in Kaga and Hiryuu versus Enterprise and Saratoga. The IJN has more veteran pilots and better torpedo bombers, the USN has better command and control, better damcon*, and better dive bombers.

*I'm certain that both Sara and E pushed their admirals hard to press the issue of damage control training for their crew and some of the mid-war DC lessons like venting avgas lines once they were able to communicate. Either way, considering their historical track record, Hiryuu is going to have a very tough time putting these two carriers on the bottom. Sara took a beating multiple times and was able to come back to port for repairs and Enterprise...nuff said.
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I think damage control is one of the things Thompson would have been emphasizing as well.
 
SisterJeanne said:
Of course considering ship identification issues, the Japanese might be gunning for a carrier that isn't (see: Neosho at Coral Sea). Either way this looks to be a very interesting battle with the forces equal and two of Japan's best in Kaga and Hiryuu versus Enterprise and Saratoga. The IJN has more veteran pilots and better torpedo bombers, the USN has better command and control, better damcon*, and better dive bombers.
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You forget something else that's critically important: The USN ships carry significantly more planes. Add to that IJN operational attrition over/against Wake, how both of them took CAG damage at Pearl and the IJN are pants on head retarded on replacing pilots between CAGs, and how Hiryu isn't in the same weight class as the other three... it shows. It showed before Pearl casualties are accounted for and it really shows now.

I would rate the chances of USN roflstomping Kaga and Hiryu at over 70%.
 
Jrandom said:
I think damage control is one of the things Thompson would have been emphasizing as well.
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Well Thompson certainly would since it was one of the main advantages the USN had, and he wouldn't want to be the 'don't do this' ur-example like poor Lady Lex at Coral Sea. I was thinking more E to Halsey once they start communicating, especially since E was asking Sara how she survived The War. Enterprise's damage control was one of the key reasons...well that and the Yorktown triplets being incredibly tough to sink. I wonder if any naval historian ever did a postwar design analysis to figure out how Hornet, Yorktown and Enterprise were able to absorb such punishment and keep fighting.

Guardian54 said:
You forget something else that's critically important: The USN ships carry significantly more planes. Add to that IJN operational attrition over/against Wake, how both of them took CAG damage at Pearl and the IJN are pants on head retarded on replacing pilots between CAGs, and how Hiryu isn't in the same weight class as the other three... it shows. It showed before Pearl casualties are accounted for and it really shows now.

I would rate the chances of USN roflstomping Kaga and Hiryu at over 70%.
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Good point about the relative plane strengths. The one key factor the IJN has is that as of yet they are undiscovered, so if Sara and E can roll with Hiryuu's punch, they can really do some damage. That said, I'd give a lot for the USN to have a few Atlantas along or even SoDak to thicken up the AAA defenses by playing flak barge. Sadly Atlanta is not quite commissioned yet (24 December) since she's probably the best USN area denial unit this early in the war.
 
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Nice!

Your air to air writing is absolutely getting good if I might say!

Only thing I noticed was Thach being referred to as Captain by Sara and again later.

Was that intentional? If so that's quite the promotion haha! He wouldn't normally have put on O-6 until after the war.
 
Jrandom said:
I think damage control is one of the things Thompson would have been emphasizing as well.
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Damage Control is something the OTL USN had mostly figured out on a doctrinal level, except for the unique challenges carriers pose. Even with carriers, we were well ahead of the IJN. The major innovation that needs to happen is purging avgas lines with inert gas (usually carbon dioxide).

SisterJeanne said:
Well Thompson certainly would since it was one of the main advantages the USN had, and he wouldn't want to be the 'don't do this' ur-example like poor Lady Lex at Coral Sea. I was thinking more E to Halsey once they start communicating, especially since E was asking Sara how she survived The War. Enterprise's damage control was one of the key reasons...well that and the Yorktown triplets being incredibly tough to sink. I wonder if any naval historian ever did a postwar design analysis to figure out how Hornet, Yorktown and Enterprise were able to absorb such punishment and keep fighting.
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One of the USN's long-standing design priorities is survivability, especially in capital ships. This is a complex topic, and really can't be boiled down to any one thing, rather being due to US designers always keeping an eye to "how can we design this system to mitigate the consequences of battle damage".

For example, firefighting mains in US ships had segregation and isolation valves that would be closed before action,so that loss of pressure in one part of the main wouldn't impede the function of other mains.
 
SisterJeanne said:
Well Thompson certainly would since it was one of the main advantages the USN had, and he wouldn't want to be the 'don't do this' ur-example like poor Lady Lex at Coral Sea. I was thinking more E to Halsey once they start communicating, especially since E was asking Sara how she survived The War. Enterprise's damage control was one of the key reasons...well that and the Yorktown triplets being incredibly tough to sink. I wonder if any naval historian ever did a postwar design analysis to figure out how Hornet, Yorktown and Enterprise were able to absorb such punishment and keep fighting.



Good point about the relative plane strengths. The one key factor the IJN has is that as of yet they are undiscovered, so if Sara and E can roll with Hiryuu's punch, they can really do some damage. That said, I'd give a lot for the USN to have a few Atlantas along or even SoDak to thicken up the AAA defenses by playing flak barge. Sadly Atlanta is not quite commissioned yet (24 December) since she's probably the best USN area denial unit this early in the war.
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Problem with Atlantas is they only have two directors, so even if they are AA farms, they can get overwhelmed by mass attacks coming from multiple directions. That's why the Oakland/Reno class gave up the wing turrets and added two more Mk 37 directors.
 
Guardian54 said:
I would rate the chances of USN roflstomping Kaga and Hiryu at over 70%.
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I don't if only because that doesn't make for a good story.

Kaga carries like...72 planes ready, 8 spares, another dozen or so in parts. Hiryuu carries another 64, with nine or so in parts.

Sara carried 78 planes in '36 biplane bombers and what not. She went up to 80 ready aircraft in '45. Right now she carries 43 SBD-3s, 11 F4Fs, 11 TBDs with a couple of spares of each.
wiki said:
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941, Saratoga was entering San Diego Harbor to embark her air group, which had been training ashore while the ship was refitting. This consisted of 11 Grumman F4F-3 Wildcat fighters of VF-3 (under the command of Lieutenant Jimmy Thach), 43 Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bombers of VB-3 and VS-3, and 11 Douglas TBD Devastator torpedo bombers of VT-3. The ship also was under orders to load 14 Marine Corps Brewster F2A-3 Buffalo fighters of VMF-221 for delivery in Oahu. The following morning the ship, now the flagship of Carrier Division One, commanded by Rear Admiral Aubrey Fitch, sailed for Pearl Harbor. Saratoga arrived at Pearl on 15 December, refueled, and departed for Wake Island the following day. The ship was assigned to Task Force (TF) 14 under the command of Rear Admiral Frank Jack Fletcher; VF-3 had been reinforced by two additional Wildcats picked up in Hawaii, but one SBD had been forced to ditch on 11 December.[56]
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I can't find E's current configuration, but it'll be similar, 2 squadrons of 18 SBDs, a squadron of Wildcats and a squadron of TBDs.

Now then, Kaga and Hiryuu were more tilted towards torpedo bombers than dive bombers and at this time the Zero is a much better aircraft than the F4F. It maneuvers better, its faster and it has a much heavier armament. Sure the 7.7mm don't do squat but they're there so that the pilot can put the 20mms on target. Still, even pulling every single wildcat they can out of Pearl...the USN is looking at maybe fighter parity in numbers and inferiority in quality of plane and pilot. You really don't want to take that engagement.
 
Jrandom said:
Problem with Atlantas is they only have two directors, so even if they are AA farms, they can get overwhelmed by mass attacks coming from multiple directions. That's why the Oakland/Reno class gave up the wing turrets and added two more Mk 37 directors.
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Not to mention that the wing turrets made the ship quite unstable while turning and limited the arcs of fire of the Atlanta.
 
Why am I getting the feeling that Sara and Lil' E are going to play Hammer and Anvil for the Japanese pilots?
 
For all that the IJN had a really bad track record in carrier vs. carrier combat(looking at you, Midway), but... the USN has essentially no experience. Future knowledge is all well and good, but the Japanese aviators have been fighting in China for a while and the US just doesn't have anything comparable.

Their damage control is largely untested, their planes are qualitatively worse and quantitatively equal, and the Japanese already have one US CV located.

I'd be very, very surprised if the US got away unscathed or even won this battle.
 
In regards to airwing strength, Hiryu did mention that she came out of Pearl the best of all the other Kido Butai members. So she is still operating down her optimum air wing strength and so Kaga must be as well. Now at Pearl I imagine that most of the plane losses for the IJN were in Zeroes/fighter planes, because by the nature of their mission, bombers are drop and go and fighters will loiter to provide air superiority and such. Now for supporting an invasion of Wake, two depleted carrier air wings of fighters is still more than sufficient, it may even be enough for one enemy carrier as well. But there are two full strength US carriers out there, with CAP pilots trained in the Weave. I foresee some more mulching at the expense of the IJN. Not saying a cakewalk for the US, but the IJN is going to pay through the nose for any damage they cause.
 
Dirtnap said:
I don't if only because that doesn't make for a good story.

Kaga carries like...72 planes ready, 8 spares, another dozen or so in parts. Hiryuu carries another 64, with nine or so in parts.

Sara carried 78 planes in '36 biplane bombers and what not. She went up to 80 ready aircraft in '45. Right now she carries 43 SBD-3s, 11 F4Fs, 11 TBDs with a couple of spares of each.

I can't find E's current configuration, but it'll be similar, 2 squadrons of 18 SBDs, a squadron of Wildcats and a squadron of TBDs.

Now then, Kaga and Hiryuu were more tilted towards torpedo bombers than dive bombers and at this time the Zero is a much better aircraft than the F4F. It maneuvers better, its faster and it has a much heavier armament. Sure the 7.7mm don't do squat but they're there so that the pilot can put the 20mms on target. Still, even pulling every single wildcat they can out of Pearl...the USN is looking at maybe fighter parity in numbers and inferiority in quality of plane and pilot. You really don't want to take that engagement.
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That's not a bad fight for the F4F-3, if they have the squadron tactics that really let them stomp all over the individualistic IJN pilots. And their .50cal MGs are more than sufficient to kill the lightly-built A6M, so armament is a wash.

And here, they have the beginning of the squadron tactics (notably the Thach Weave) that historically let them tangle with Zeroes at distressing odds with an excellent chance of victory - certainly at the nearly-even numbers present here. (Kaga and Hiryū likely have no more than eighteen or so fighters apiece, or two nine-fighter chūtai, as the norm was for IJN carriers to carry two nine-plane squadrons of each type at this point in the war.)

The F6F and F4U simply sealed the deal by taking away the A6M's speed advantage.

I expect a close fight, but US victory is far from impossible.
 
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