Changing Destiny (Kancolle)
- Thread starter Skywalker_T-65
- Start date
Not quite. Nuke-E caused the Navy to suffer severe sticker shock because of how much she cost. As a result, the second Enterprise-class CVN, which would have been CVN-66, was cancelled, and a repeat of the preceding Kitty Hawk class was ordered instead, becoming CV-66 America. Plans for the carrier after CV-66 to be nuclear (with a new machinery plant that used only four reactors) also fell through for cost reasons, and it ended up being built to a modified Kitty Hawk design as CV-67 John F. Kennedy.
The carrier after that was CVN-68 Nimitz and the Navy has never seriously looked back (except for a few sop-to-Congress design studies in the late 70s) since.
For the record, since CV-66 was going to be the last of the oil-fired carriers to get her SLEP refit, it was cancelled post-Cold War and she was decommissioned in 1996 instead; as this meant that she was in the worst material condition of any of the non-nuclear carriers, she was expended in live-fire testing as a damage control experiment in 2005 and scuttled in over 16,000 feet of water after completion of the experiments. Meanwhile, CV-67 is currently on donation hold to possibly become a museum ship in Kennedy territory in Rhode Island.
Burning Baron
This position needs more entrenching.
- Location
- In here, not out there.
Anyway, moving back to the actual era, is everybody ready for Super Happy Fun Times in the Pacific Ocean?
Prince of Wales sure wasn't. Yes, that is her. December 10, 1941.
Prince of Wales sure wasn't. Yes, that is her. December 10, 1941.
- Location
- Pacific NW
But then again, with Biscuit out and about, I don't think Britain can afford to send Prince or Repulse to Singapore. They need every fast battlewagon they have to chase Bismarck. If they do send any battleships it will probably be Valiant, Malaya or even some of the Revenge class ships.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
This also assumes that the British have managed to break Force Z loose a week earlier than in OTL. Since Japan should be launching the invasion of the Philippines, Indonesia and Malaya at the same time as the strike on Pearl, it's possible that the RN reinforcements are enroute someplace in the Indian Ocean rather than on station in Singapore. I agree that the strategic situation is much worse for the British with Biscuit based out of Brest, and Revenge and Hood both drydocked for repairs so out of commission for a while.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
True, also the Brits have an additional CV in Glorious who was not sunk. I think at this point, about the only thing we can say is Queen Elizabeth is not tapped to be bomber bait for the IJAAF since she's talking to Churchill in a later snippet. Well that and also 1942 is shaping up to be a record-setting year for Pacific shipwrecks (again).
- Location
- In the depts of despair.
Even then a carrier joining the task force just mean that they will sink one more capital ship alongside whatever forces the british managed to free for the operation, a single carrier cannot win against a resolute japanese air strike.
Especially when its pilots are ignorant of the true capabilities of the nimble and long legged japanese planes, tactics designed to use the british maneuverality advantage over german planes will play in the japanese favor as they can outturn everything the allies got and their range means that they will not be able to predict when the attack will come.
Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
Right, but the strike went in unescorted. And the IJN/IJAAF's medium bombers weren't up to dealing with any sort of damage, they themselves called the type 96 and type 1 bombers flying cigars. both for their shape and the propensity to go up in flames.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Maybe not. Historically PoW and Repulse were sunk by unescorted Betty bombers and Nell torpedo bombers. If we assume a CAP off a carrier, they have a fighting chance, or the Japanese would have to scrounge an escort force of land-based fighters from someplace. Certainly the carrier could cause casualties and also break up the attacks with the organic air wing that it has.
Also, historically, because of the circumstances of the sighting with the Japanese bombers in a search pattern when Force Z was spotted, they came in waves rather than one crushing strike.
- Location
- Pacific Northwest
At that time. would Indomitable (assuming she's available) be able to field SeaFires and experienced carrier fighter pilots? That along with British radar may make a huge difference.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Well, a lot would depend on known unknowns. Whether Force Z makes it to Singapore before the war starts (or is even sent in the first place with Bismark a threat to the Atlantic convoys plus whatever might be going down in the Med). What the composition of Force Z is. Whether Force Z sorties to try to intercept the invasion transports. What information the Japanese have (keeping in mind that the IJA and IJN were not on particularly good terms in terms of intelligence-sharing). Then we get into the specifics of the actual attack....
In addition this would be happening...not exactly off camera per se, but would not be a focus of the main narrative since the naval war will be ultimately won or lost by the clash of the USN and IJN in the Pacific. The Royal Navy just can't spare the forces to mount a creditable counterattack from the Indian Ocean until 1943-44 and by that point the IJN will probably have its back broken by Sara and her younger cousins.
ijnfleetadmiral
CinC Rengo Kanmusutai
- Location
- Admiral's Bridge, HIJMS Kongo
I'd like to see at least one snippet involving Tirpitz and her first Captain, Karl Topp. He was aboard her the longest out of all her captains and held a special attachment for her, from what I can recall.
- Location
- Canada
I would NOT count on this. There are some good TLs elsewhere with divergences in the Indian Ocean. Yes, it'll still be a distant sideshow, but it's a side show that can easily slit Japan's throat with how badly their entire offensive relied on dumb luck.
Reference (the other TLs are linked within the thread somewhere): April 1942 Alternate Indian Ocean
From above:
1) Ensure radar on Ceylon is up, and make sure the coast-watchers are equipped with radios and all fighters on the ground are armed once intel arrives that a raid is coming. Fuelling of half the fighter force can be done pre-dawn every morning (remove fuel after dark) until the danger passes.
2) Station the main heavy elements of the Eastern Fleet far north of Ceylon to ambush Japanese elements raiding shipping in the Bay of Bengal, relying on land-based fighter squadrons to reinforce fighter cover if the main enemy fleet does not beeline for Ceylon.
3) Load Hermes up with fighters FFS, and/or keep her with the actual fucking fleet!
4) Destroy Ryuujou and the 6 cruisers in the northern and center forces. It's reasonable to see that the Japanese, sure of having superiority in the Bay of Bengal, would send minor fleet elements to attack coastal shipping in support of their push through Burma, while focusing the main fleet on striking the Royal Navy anchorage at Ceylon.
5) Bring the fleet close to shore for fighter cover in case the Mobile Force gets ideas on going into the Bay of Bengal.
6) Congratulations, you've basically ensured that Arakan can hold and the Japanese will be stopped in Burma.
From other TLs:
1) Deal with the European elites living in Singapore so that you can build defences over their golf courses. Anyone who sabotages the defence effort will be shot. This should buy Singapore at least a couple more weeks.
2) Destroy all transport during withdrawal. Basically anything that moves in a sustained fashion at faster than a walking pace.
3) Force a strategic withdrawal of ABDA forces before they are destroyed, if possible, as this is a decent group of cruisers and escorts.
4) Change from the Alternate Indian Ocean TL, deploy the submarines in the Malacca and Sunda Straits. These forward pickets should pick up the Mobile Force (KB) entering the Indian Ocean and be able to get off a report within 2 days (i.e. gives early warning). They will strike at the Mobile Force as it heads home, and hopefully bag at least one fleet carrier. If they attack on the way in, one of the subs at the chokepoint that attacked should head to the other chokepoint.
Japanese Losses from above TL considerations, in exchange for a couple of British cruisers, maybe monitors, and some coastal shipping:
1 light carrier + at least 5 cruisers (of 6 possible)
Maybe a fleet carrier or fast battleship on the way out, or even on the way in!
That's a flogging for the Japanese.
From above:
1) Ensure radar on Ceylon is up, and make sure the coast-watchers are equipped with radios and all fighters on the ground are armed once intel arrives that a raid is coming. Fuelling of half the fighter force can be done pre-dawn every morning (remove fuel after dark) until the danger passes.
2) Station the main heavy elements of the Eastern Fleet far north of Ceylon to ambush Japanese elements raiding shipping in the Bay of Bengal, relying on land-based fighter squadrons to reinforce fighter cover if the main enemy fleet does not beeline for Ceylon.
3) Load Hermes up with fighters FFS, and/or keep her with the actual fucking fleet!
4) Destroy Ryuujou and the 6 cruisers in the northern and center forces. It's reasonable to see that the Japanese, sure of having superiority in the Bay of Bengal, would send minor fleet elements to attack coastal shipping in support of their push through Burma, while focusing the main fleet on striking the Royal Navy anchorage at Ceylon.
5) Bring the fleet close to shore for fighter cover in case the Mobile Force gets ideas on going into the Bay of Bengal.
6) Congratulations, you've basically ensured that Arakan can hold and the Japanese will be stopped in Burma.
From other TLs:
1) Deal with the European elites living in Singapore so that you can build defences over their golf courses. Anyone who sabotages the defence effort will be shot. This should buy Singapore at least a couple more weeks.
2) Destroy all transport during withdrawal. Basically anything that moves in a sustained fashion at faster than a walking pace.
3) Force a strategic withdrawal of ABDA forces before they are destroyed, if possible, as this is a decent group of cruisers and escorts.
4) Change from the Alternate Indian Ocean TL, deploy the submarines in the Malacca and Sunda Straits. These forward pickets should pick up the Mobile Force (KB) entering the Indian Ocean and be able to get off a report within 2 days (i.e. gives early warning). They will strike at the Mobile Force as it heads home, and hopefully bag at least one fleet carrier. If they attack on the way in, one of the subs at the chokepoint that attacked should head to the other chokepoint.
Japanese Losses from above TL considerations, in exchange for a couple of British cruisers, maybe monitors, and some coastal shipping:
1 light carrier + at least 5 cruisers (of 6 possible)
Maybe a fleet carrier or fast battleship on the way out, or even on the way in!
That's a flogging for the Japanese.
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Burning Baron
This position needs more entrenching.
- Location
- In here, not out there.
Spoiler alert, these are irrelevant. Unless Sky actually writes something in the Indian Ocean, then these have nothing to do with the story.
- Location
- Canada
Spoilered as suggested. Though I point out that YOU were the one who reignited the Indian Ocean discussion.
I'm claiming that Indian Ocean could easily help make ZuiZui more Turkey than OTL by means of this, that and the other thing.
Burning Baron
This position needs more entrenching.
- Location
- In here, not out there.
Except that I didn't. Prince of Wales went down in the South China Sea, which is not quite the Indian Ocean. And my point was that other timelines have little relevance here.
That's certainly possible, although that description makes 'High School AP English presentations' me cringe a little.
- Location
- Canada
Enumerated your points...
1) If Japan comes a week early, Force Z is still in the Indian Ocean, if it was sent at all in this TL where Bismarck still lives. Much commenting on that topic ensued, hence my claim that you reopened the Indian Ocean can of worms.
2) "Oi, Sky, if you have plans for the Mobile Force (KB) to still have an Indian Ocean Raid, here's some ideas for how to pummel the Mobile Force. Hope you enjoy" of the same variety as discussing good books to look at (which IIRC happened a few hundred pages back).
3) For some reason, your complaint on wording made me think of Beast_regards' statement from the fic "Revenant" on SB:
The only reason KanColle shipgirls can't befriend people like this is lack of beam weaponry. How unfortunate. Well, if we cross out the beam requirement, then...
Your label would be perfectly accurate, as said Super Happy Fun Times would be a Befriending Festival.
- Location
- Mountains of Appalachia
Regarding point 1, that's very valid unless our author needs for Force Z to be sunk for his own reasons, at which point in time a butterfly can develop that sends them a week-plus earlier to SE Asia (say the Admiralty picks up the accelerated preparations by Japan to invade the Southern Resource Area early enough to accelerate their fleet deployments).
Regarding point 2, while the Indian Ocean Raid can go badly for the Japanese, ultimately, it is a sideshow.
The IJN does not have the logistics reach and spare combat capability to do more that raid into the Bay of Bengal with all it's other commitments in the Pacific, while the Royal Navy is in the same boat. As nice as it would be to assemble enough of a force to kick the IJN out of Singapore, that cannot be done without stripping more critical areas (mainly the Med and the Atlantic) to the bone.
When Singapore falls (again), it's a bad hit but not critical damage to the British since they can get tin, oil, and rubber from other places. Losing Gibraltar, Malta, or Suez would be far more devastating for the Royal Navy, to say nothing of the need to keep the Channel and North Sea controlled and ensure that the Atlantic convoys supply the home islands. Now, that said, failing to take Singapore and Malaya would be a disaster for Japan since that's the whole point of the war for them (Japan needs the resources from Indonesia and SE Asia, Singapore dictates control of Indonesia). So, if the initial attack fails, I expect to see the Kido Butai sent to the South China Sea to insure that Singapore falls ASAP before America can rally and put strain on Japan's eastern flank.
- Location
- Canada
The big reason I advocate the Japanese get a flogging in the Indian Ocean is that we get more societal issues of the era such as sexism and how the younger seamen would see shipgirls ("We love and respect our ships and all, but if they say it's okay to relieve our stress manually and to think of them as offerings if we didn't feel comfortable, well, might as well say God tells us to not contract clap or other diseases, eh boys?" versus the "self-gratification is EVIL" mainstream opinion and insistence that men must constantly seek sex, and that birth control is similarly EVIL) and a lot of hand-wringing in Congress over sending elementary schoolers (visually) to fight.
And then there's...
"Admiral Thompson, you are under arrest pending investigation of the scale model of an aircraft carrier that has shown up in the position reserved for the officers' launch on USS Saratoga, and the scale model of a battleship on USS Arizona. The suspected charges include bigamy, inappropriate fornication with an inanimate--uh, I mean non-human... oh whatever, just come and have a talk and we can set all this aside in favour of fighting the war properly, alright?" President Roosevelt himself taking a vacation and enjoying himself, as he is trying very hard to not have a stroke from the sheer strain of suppressing uproarious laughter.
If the Japanese seem very difficult to stop, there's less moralizing and screaming from various groups in favour of pursuing the war more aggressively, which means less of the following fun stuff:
Though yes, as someone else said, that sounds more like Halsey.
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Skywalker_T-65
Writer with too many ideas.
- Location
- United States
- Pronouns
- Plural/They/He/Her
Right...now that I finally had the time to do what I wanted...
1. Re: Utah
She did come very close to Abyssal there. One has to remember she basically self-summoned herself entirely on RAEG. This is going to have side effects, when it comes to her first combat. As for the pilots...well. Depends. Some will accept things better than others. Utah herself is going to be utterly devastated.
2. Re: Losses
I tried to keep things as realistic as possible here. Some differences to account for a better prepared harbor, some to account for different ships being in port...such and such. Like I said, Japanese losses are extrapolated from historical losses including the amount of planes damaged by ground fire, IRL. This said, a lot of the Japanese pilots were the instructors. For the Zero, at least.
Reconstituting their airwings is going to be a major pain and a half. With all the butterflies that implies.
3. Re: Grammar
Personally, I've always used 'leave alone'. 'Let alone' just looks weird to me...in this context, at least. I've never seen it as a tense issue, since I've read it used myself in this way and...thus use it myself in this way. It's just a different way of writing, a synonym like Trace said.
4. Re: Utah again
There aren't two Utah's. Even if they repaired and refloated her hull (which they won't, it doesn't have any military value) there would still only be one spirit. And they won't refloat the hull, as above, because there isn't any value there. Even if you repaired her and managed to dig up enough 12-inch guns to refit her...she'd be a slow ship with antiquated armor and guns. Less value than even Arky, and she only escorted convoys and shot up land targets.
Also, no lewd the momboat.
5. Re: Ship Girls
As far as Civil War girls go, I don't have any plans there. I'm generally okay with people speculating, I just don't want arguments or people trying to force fanon on the story. This said, if it's something that clearly won't happen in this fic, there is the idea thread.
As for the reaction to the spirit thing, Halsey will be fun. Though Lil' E is a bit young, even for desperate sailors.
Now Big E, on the other hand...well.
She'll be giving Halsey bald spots and grey hair in short order
Especially if she retains the 'Little E' personality. Which could lead to the above woman, with the same easy going and somewhat childish personality. That will cause a lot of issues with sailors, I imagine. And that's not even getting into the pilots. Because whoo boy, that will be fun for poor Dadmiral Halsey. He may end up wanting to crack skulls.
6. Re: Mac and the Philippines
Welllll....yeah. Mac is Mac, not much you can change there. On this note, ABDA spinoff is a go.
For what that's worth, at least. >.>
And since there's already several images in this post, one more won't hurt things:
1. Re: Utah
She did come very close to Abyssal there. One has to remember she basically self-summoned herself entirely on RAEG. This is going to have side effects, when it comes to her first combat. As for the pilots...well. Depends. Some will accept things better than others. Utah herself is going to be utterly devastated.
2. Re: Losses
I tried to keep things as realistic as possible here. Some differences to account for a better prepared harbor, some to account for different ships being in port...such and such. Like I said, Japanese losses are extrapolated from historical losses including the amount of planes damaged by ground fire, IRL. This said, a lot of the Japanese pilots were the instructors. For the Zero, at least.
Reconstituting their airwings is going to be a major pain and a half. With all the butterflies that implies.
3. Re: Grammar
Personally, I've always used 'leave alone'. 'Let alone' just looks weird to me...in this context, at least. I've never seen it as a tense issue, since I've read it used myself in this way and...thus use it myself in this way. It's just a different way of writing, a synonym like Trace said.
4. Re: Utah again
There aren't two Utah's. Even if they repaired and refloated her hull (which they won't, it doesn't have any military value) there would still only be one spirit. And they won't refloat the hull, as above, because there isn't any value there. Even if you repaired her and managed to dig up enough 12-inch guns to refit her...she'd be a slow ship with antiquated armor and guns. Less value than even Arky, and she only escorted convoys and shot up land targets.
Also, no lewd the momboat.
5. Re: Ship Girls
As far as Civil War girls go, I don't have any plans there. I'm generally okay with people speculating, I just don't want arguments or people trying to force fanon on the story. This said, if it's something that clearly won't happen in this fic, there is the idea thread.
As for the reaction to the spirit thing, Halsey will be fun. Though Lil' E is a bit young, even for desperate sailors.
Now Big E, on the other hand...well.
She'll be giving Halsey bald spots and grey hair in short order
Especially if she retains the 'Little E' personality. Which could lead to the above woman, with the same easy going and somewhat childish personality. That will cause a lot of issues with sailors, I imagine. And that's not even getting into the pilots. Because whoo boy, that will be fun for poor Dadmiral Halsey. He may end up wanting to crack skulls.
6. Re: Mac and the Philippines
Welllll....yeah. Mac is Mac, not much you can change there. On this note, ABDA spinoff is a go.
For what that's worth, at least. >.>
And since there's already several images in this post, one more won't hurt things:
ijnfleetadmiral
CinC Rengo Kanmusutai
- Location
- Admiral's Bridge, HIJMS Kongo
Yeah, I can see Big E causing issues with her crew. Remember, these are sailors who are at sea for a long time with little to no female contact. Now add that there's a very attractive young lady living aboard ship with them.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Where are those images of Enterprise from? It doesn't seem like Kantai Collection.Right...now that I finally had the time to do what I wanted...
1. Re: Utah
She did come very close to Abyssal there. One has to remember she basically self-summoned herself entirely on RAEG. This is going to have side effects, when it comes to her first combat. As for the pilots...well. Depends. Some will accept things better than others. Utah herself is going to be utterly devastated.
2. Re: Losses
I tried to keep things as realistic as possible here. Some differences to account for a better prepared harbor, some to account for different ships being in port...such and such. Like I said, Japanese losses are extrapolated from historical losses including the amount of planes damaged by ground fire, IRL. This said, a lot of the Japanese pilots were the instructors. For the Zero, at least.
Reconstituting their airwings is going to be a major pain and a half. With all the butterflies that implies.
3. Re: Grammar
Personally, I've always used 'leave alone'. 'Let alone' just looks weird to me...in this context, at least. I've never seen it as a tense issue, since I've read it used myself in this way and...thus use it myself in this way. It's just a different way of writing, a synonym like Trace said.
4. Re: Utah again
There aren't two Utah's. Even if they repaired and refloated her hull (which they won't, it doesn't have any military value) there would still only be one spirit. And they won't refloat the hull, as above, because there isn't any value there. Even if you repaired her and managed to dig up enough 12-inch guns to refit her...she'd be a slow ship with antiquated armor and guns. Less value than even Arky, and she only escorted convoys and shot up land targets.
Also, no lewd the momboat.
5. Re: Ship Girls
As far as Civil War girls go, I don't have any plans there. I'm generally okay with people speculating, I just don't want arguments or people trying to force fanon on the story. This said, if it's something that clearly won't happen in this fic, there is the idea thread.
As for the reaction to the spirit thing, Halsey will be fun. Though Lil' E is a bit young, even for desperate sailors.
Now Big E, on the other hand...well.
She'll be giving Halsey bald spots and grey hair in short order
Especially if she retains the 'Little E' personality. Which could lead to the above woman, with the same easy going and somewhat childish personality. That will cause a lot of issues with sailors, I imagine. And that's not even getting into the pilots. Because whoo boy, that will be fun for poor Dadmiral Halsey. He may end up wanting to crack skulls.
6. Re: Mac and the Philippines
Welllll....yeah. Mac is Mac, not much you can change there. On this note, ABDA spinoff is a go.
For what that's worth, at least. >.>
And since there's already several images in this post, one more won't hurt things:
jwolfe_beta
Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord
- Location
- Canada
Who is the ship at the very same time.
