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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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Chloe Sullivan said:
It was actually Nimitz they wanted to slot in as Richardson's replacement.

Nimitz demurred, saying that there were dozens more senior than him and he didn't want to cause ill will in the navy by jumping over so many.

Then they went to Kimmel, who was even more junior, and part of why he got shafted so badly was probably due to having enemies in the navy.

By any military standard, Kimmel got rolled while MacArthur goy away with just about murder. Kimmel really couldn't have averted most of the Pearl losses, while MacArthur could have done so much to not have screwed up as much as he did in the philipines.
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To be Fair, Kimmel did get more kicking than he deserved, but see below.
It's sad, really, Kimmel was by most accounts a very good admiral, which is one reason why he got the post OTL despite his lack of seniority. He just didn't have Nimitz's social savvy or King's political chops (let alone MacArthurs).

I guess it did work out OTL, because nimitz was a pure genius at placinh and managing capable subordinates, and was fantastic as a guy for the stay-at-home head honcho role.
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Kimmel actually could have done three things.
1: Ammo stored and READY at the ADA, that he personally controlled.
2: NOT BE PREDICTABLE. I kid you not. This alone was why he deserved to be relived. His FltEx Schedule was like reading a train schedule run by the Germans. The Japanese pretty much made their entire plans based on that they knew where the BBs would be at certain days.
3: Stepped up more aggressive and distant patrol with assets he personally controlled, and kept them out 24/7
In premise, taken the war warning 100% seriously, and acted (As Bull Hasley did) if the war was going to happen that moment.
Note I don't include more torpedo netting, etc, etc.


Now, to be fair, even with the Fleet Problem that showed how vulnerable Pearl was to Air attack via carriers, I don't blame him for whiffing on that for following reasons:
1: No one told him or his command about Japanese shallow water torpexes.
2: No one in the US knew that Japan had solved the basic unrep problems to get a force to Pearl.
(This is one of the reasons no one reasonably expected, and I do mean no one an attack at Pearl. Intel hadn't found out Japan had solved fueling at sea across the board, and without that, Japan couldn't get a viable strike force to Pearl)
3: Given 1 and 2, intel (both in WDC and in Pearl) reasonably (with to be fair, good reason!) expected the blow against the US to fall against MacA, not Kimmel. Richardson was a prophet (and one reason why he was bounced, btw) that Pearl was a viable surprise target. No one took him seriously.
However, with 1 and 2 above, and War Plan Orange (which expected the decisive naval battle AT Phils) which, ironically, was more or less the actual Japanese warplan UNTIL 1940, and Isoru's little brainstorm, no one in the various services or military expected Pearl.

So, Kimmel getting blasted as he did, yes, was a bit much. Doesn't make what he didn't do (two of which would have a chance to have prevented the damage) any less heinous.
 
MageOhki said:
2: NOT BE PREDICTABLE. I kid you not. This alone was why he deserved to be relived. His FltEx Schedule was like reading a train schedule run by the Germans. The Japanese pretty much made their entire plans based on that they knew where the BBs would be at certain days.
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At the time, you could have taken aerial tours of the harbor. Meaning that over time, you can get an accurate time table for what would be where, and when.
MageOhki said:
Stepped up more aggressive and distant patrol with assets he personally controlled, and kept them out 24/7
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Which he didn't have. That's partly why the Japanese air force was written off as a flight of B-17s. They were going to use them as scouts. Also, they weren't at war yet. How much fuel would it take to run patrols even during daylight hours, which is the best he could have done, since night scouts wouldn't have anything except the Mark 1 eyeball to detect anything with. In the dark.

Finally, there's the fact that it was considered infeasible. Pearl was ludicrously far from Japan. It took every oiler in the Japanese navy to get the carriers there and back.

It's easy to lay blame now, but from the point of view of someone who hasn't seen the aftermath yet, what he did was pretty logical. Nobody at the time expected the Empire of Japan to do the dumb, and force a country larger than most of Europe into battle.

The US had and still has so many resources, it's absurd. What won the war wasn't just generals and admirals, or technological advances. The US manufactured something like 2 tons of material per soldier. Rations, bandages, bullets, tanks, aircraft, guns of all kinds, and even ships. Case in point, Andrew Higgins, whose landing craft were used in every amphibious invasion, started with less than 100 employees at one factory, but by the end of the war, had twenty-five thousand, working at eight different manufacturing plants. For a boat that was 10'10 wide, and about 7 feet tall, and was made almost entirely from wood, except for the ramp.
 
It's worth noting what's in the chapter is from an inherently biased perspective.

Sheo deciding to use 'Thompson' for 'my' last name when he's in a bully the Sky mood aside, our Admiral is not an SI. He's not a historian. So when I'm writing from his perspective, expect more 'pop history' references than an actual SI. Poor Kimmel gets hit more than most.

Richardson is just, justifiably, convinced no one else is as good for the job of reading the Japanese as he is.

(Now to get back to trying to eat without upsetting my stomach more)
 
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Burning Baron said:
Which he didn't have. That's partly why the Japanese air force was written off as a flight of B-17s. They were going to use them as scouts. Also, they weren't at war yet. How much fuel would it take to run patrols even during daylight hours, which is the best he could have done, since night scouts wouldn't have anything except the Mark 1 eyeball to detect anything with. In the dark.
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Not to mention that US strategic doctrine at the time would have expected any Japanese attack to come from the most practical direction, and the Japanese plan at Pear called for them to launch from a direct most conductive to maintaining surprise, so even if he had all his air-scouting assets on patrol that morning, they would have been flying the wrong quadrant, short of Kimmel developing precognition.

Note that he really didn't have enough PBYs to even properly cover a quadrant over the whole daylight period, let alone a 360 sweep.

Scout planes were generally launched based on intelligence suggesting that there was potentially something to find. In peace time, high tempo operation of scout planes would be wasteful.

@MageOhki is simply applying too much hindsight and taking as expected things that were NOT IN DOCTRINE at the time, and would have been maverick moves that would not be a good idea for Kimmel to make given how precarious his job already was even before Pearl.

Doctrine is really really important. A lot of the USN's 1942 successes in the pacific theater were enabled by better doctrine on things like Damage Control, Fighter Direction, and Anti-Air Fleet Formations, and Mutual Support Formations for airplanes. Not always good doctrine, by modern standards, but still well advanced over their Japanese counterparts. Strategically, USN training rotation doctrine meant that we had a massive pilot corps by the end of 1943, while the Japanese had expended most of their veterans and were throwing insufficiently trained rookies out. In a sense, Pearl was a strategic boon to the USN, as it more or less forced the USN into early adoption and development of doctrinal tools that were just better suited to fight the actual war, while Japanese high command was still stuck in ONE DECISIVE BATTLE mode as late as Leyte Gulf.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
@MageOhki is simply applying too much hindsight and taking as expected things that were NOT IN DOCTRINE at the time, and would have been maverick moves that would not be a good idea for Kimmel to make given how precarious his job already was even before Pearl.

Doctrine is really really important. A lot of the USN's 1942 successes in the pacific theater were enabled by better doctrine on things like Damage Control, Fighter Direction, and Anti-Air Fleet Formations, and Mutual Support Formations for airplanes. Not always good doctrine, by modern standards, but still well advanced over their Japanese counterparts. Strategically, USN training rotation doctrine meant that we had a massive pilot corps by the end of 1943, while the Japanese had expended most of their veterans and were throwing insufficiently trained rookies out. In a sense, Pearl was a strategic boon to the USN, as it more or less forced the USN into early adoption and development of doctrinal tools that were just better suited to fight the actual war, while Japanese high command was still stuck in ONE DECISIVE BATTLE mode as late as Leyte Gulf.
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Agree that doctrine was pretty key to later USN successes, although I'd say that the sucesses came in 1943 and later, for instance, as late as Santa Cruz (October 26th, 1942), Fighter Direction and CAP was a major problem that contributed to the loss of Hornet. Needless to say, it got ironed out by the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot in June 1944.

Now, that said, some of the things that are being introduced, such as the Thatch Weave and the use of multi-carrier striking forces are going to yield major benefits down the line once the war happens. This will probably come into play sooner than it did in OTL, especially given that this is being pushed with a real sense of urgency by the people in the know.

Another reason Pearl was a real strategic boon to the USN is that it got America fully in the war and fully committed to supporting the Navy's needs in terms of resources, ships and manpower. For instance, right now in mid 1941, the Navy has previously ordered three Essex class carriers in July 1940, and then eight more in September 1940 under the Two-Navy Act. After Pearl, Congress basically handed the Navy a blank check for ship procurement and they put in orders for twenty-one more for a total of 32, although only 24 were built since the war ended before the final nine could be built and launched.
 
Hm. AltHistory.com exodus. Subforum dedicated entirely to althistory stuff...

Hmm.

...........

No. Bad Sky. Bad.


(I'm willing to bet when that announcement came up, my fanbase started taking bets on how long I'll last before posting something there)

Also: Lexie has her official art up, finally and


I really do like her design, not going to lie. Just enough of Lex to know they're related, but also enough to prevent the common fanon that she's literally (WSG) Lex in (WSG) Essex's uniform. Good on WSG.

(much as I like Lex and Sara's artist, this is probably a case where having a different one worked out)
 
Well, in my admittedly headache-ridden state, I was more thinking an ISOT. Because serious althistory, while fun, is something I wouldn't have time for. Not with student teaching in two weeks.

(oh yeah, I'm student teaching in two weeks. Fun times)

I'm hoping to reach Pearl in here before then, after all. If I can. So if I do something in that new subforum, it would just be for kicks. Serious-ish since that's how I write, but not something as serious as Dem!Germany would be.


Admittedly another Paradox game though :p

At any rate, I am going to maintain my major focus on trying to hit Pearl before I student teach and lose a lot of free time. I know people really want me to reach that point, and I don't want to disappoint anyone.
 
That map rustles my jimmies. New Mexico territory was very much anti-slavery, because of the indentured servitude under the Spaniards. There was even a Mexican legal tradition for it. It was only considered as being Confederate because the CSA declared the southern half to be Arizona territory, and was mostly pushed out after Glorietta Pass in 1862.
Skywalker_T-65 said:
I'm hoping to reach Pearl in here before then, after all. If I can. So if I do something in that new subforum, it would just be for kicks. Serious-ish since that's how I write, but not something as serious as Dem!Germany would be.
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To be honest, from what content I've seen from the AH people I've seen so far, I think Democracy's Torch would fit right in, as would Destiny.
 
Burning Baron said:
That map rustles my jimmies. New Mexico territory was very much anti-slavery, because of the indentured servitude under the Spaniards. There was even a Mexican legal tradition for it. It was only considered as being Confederate because the CSA declared the southern half to be Arizona territory, and was mostly pushed out after Glorietta Pass in 1862.
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True enough, though the (modded) Vicky that lead to the above was a reverse Civil War. Go full-bore on supporting slavery and the North breaks off. Hence 'Free States of America'. Just after you win the inevitable second war (first only gives a peace treaty) the USA tag-switches to CSA. The map above is after I fought multiple wars to tear free states off them. And steal Cuba from Spain...For Reasonstm​

Anywho, I'm not particularly worried about how Dem!Germany or Destiny- though Destiny may be pushing it :V -would fit in. Just without having a Paradox game playthrough as an excuse, Dem!Germany is a much more serious althistory project. What with the need to find a point-of-departure well before '36 and all that. That is what I don't have time for.

An ISOT as silly as this? Less serious=less work. For the most part.


At any rate, working on the next chapter. When my head cooperates.
 
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I don't think it's so much an exodus as it is a cross pollination. None of these guys are leaving ah.com so much as they are just joining this forum.

Also, Pearl is nice and all but... Barbarossa when? :V
 
theJMPer said:
Ah, Operation Barbarossa, well known for its vast collection of stirring naval battles!
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Hey, don't knock it. It's right up there alongside Peal as being the event of 1941. While the naval focus of the story means it won't take center stage, it is important enough to recieve a bit of a mention.

Skywalker_T-65 said:
Soontm​
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A truly quality authorial reply. 10/10, Valve approves. :V

More seriously, your starting student teaching two weeks? Lucky. I had to start what is basically a teaching internship today as part of my graduate and certification program. Although today was just the boring meet-and-greet with my mentor teacher. The most meaningful activity I had was really arranging the classroom desks...
 
The BKA class of river gunboats came with 1 or 2 tank turrets with either 75-85mm guns, a couple of 47mm guns, and machine guns for AA work and what not. Often the commanders of these vessels would add on additional weapons when they could get their hands on them, ie, mortars or even Katyusha rocket batteries. They are one of the reasons that Stalingrad was such a quagmire for the Germans, due to the ability to resupply Soviet troops on the other side of the river.
 
theJMPer said:
So... it's all jailbait then?
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Outside the capitol vessels of the Red Baltic and Black Sea Banner Fleets, which spent the war mainly as floating fire support, most certainly. The one grey area is the submarine arm, since the lewdmarines are hard to determine.

MagisterAurelius said:
The BKA class of river gunboats came with 1 or 2 tank turrets with either 75-85mm guns, a couple of 47mm guns, and machine guns for AA work and what not. Often the commanders of these vessels would add on additional weapons when they could get their hands on them, ie, mortars or even Katyusha rocket batteries. They are one of the reasons that Stalingrad was such a quagmire for the Germans, due to the ability to resupply Soviet troops on the other side of the river.
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Given that Kancolle manifested IJN coastal defense ships as being younger then the Akizuki Class, Soviet river gunships would probably be in a similar league.
 
The Soviets are...the Soviets are...



Well. I'm not going to be writing from their perspective for a long time. Barbarossa will be from the German side to continue with Schreiber. I have plans for the Reds, not fun plans, but plans.
 
obssesednuker said:
Outside the capitol vessels of the Red Baltic and Black Sea Banner Fleets, which spent the war mainly as floating fire support, most certainly. The one grey area is the submarine arm, since the lewdmarines are hard to determine.



Given that Kancolle manifested IJN coastal defense ships as being younger then the Akizuki Class, Soviet river gunships would probably be in a similar league.
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didn't their sub arm lose almost twice as many vessels as they sank.
 
I'm personally not much a fan of the Soviet submarine arm. I understand the difficulties they had to work with, but when their most notable achievements are causing some of the (including the worst) worst naval disasters in history...



(as a historian, I try to avoid letting my biases show, though. It may happen sometimes though, and I won't lie and say I don't hate Stalinist Russia about as much as I do Nazi Germany)
 
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