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Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

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Always Late said:
Yeah, Extra History's good stuff. Video #3 is what has the details that'll make the next phase of the story though: Signal triangulation, transmissions both from Bismarck and mainland Europe, that'll be what gives the Royal Navy a handle on Schriber's location and destination.
And with two cruisers and a whole convoy of slow transports in tow, there's no feasible way to keep any sort of operational security, even with Schriber's knowledge of the British code-breaking. He's sitting in the most unsubtle ship afloat.
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Not exactly. Seeing as Schriber probably knows exactly what the British are capable of, he's probably going to operate under strict radio silence until he gets close to port. Meaning that he won't even transmit news of his victory to anyone, and that the prize crews will enforce strict radio silence.

Regardless, the British response will probably be less intense than it was IRL, for a number of reasons:
1) Less damage to British pride. Revenge was one of the oldest and least modernized battleships in the RN. And it wasn't blown up shortly into the battle, but heavily damaged and crippled after a prolonged engagement. Hood was played up as the pride of the RN--a factor that's simply absent here. Given the RN's recent victory in battleship actions, they'll feel less vehement about getting revenge.
2) More ships to track. You've got the captured convoy, two cruisers, and Bismarck. It's not clear whether they'll be together, or sailing separately, or even towards the same destination.
3) The RN has a big rescue mission on its hands already, what with the Revenge adrift and fighting to stay afloat with an entire battleship's crew in need of aid. And the crews of those destroyers will need rescue, too.
4) Fewer ships available for the RN. Between Hood taking heavy damage, Revenge being all but dead, a pair of destroyers sunk, and whatever else...not to mention the fact that the KGV-class battleships are still having major teething issues with their turrets at this time, meaning that their contribution in any battle is going to be limited.

As far as Hitler's reaction goes...he's likely to be happy about the result. A clear victory that even features some spoils as an added bonus, and even if Bismarck takes weeks to repair, it's a big black eye to the British--Revenge is out of the war, along with two destroyers. And the British lost an entire convoy, too. Sure, the British have battleships to spare...but not that many, and Tirpitz will be on her way eventually...
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Not exactly. Seeing as Schriber probably knows exactly what the British are capable of, he's probably going to operate under strict radio silence until he gets close to port. Meaning that he won't even transmit news of his victory to anyone, and that the prize crews will enforce strict radio silence.

Regardless, the British response will probably be less intense than it was IRL, for a number of reasons:
1) Less damage to British pride. Revenge was one of the oldest and least modernized battleships in the RN. And it wasn't blown up shortly into the battle, but heavily damaged and crippled after a prolonged engagement. Hood was played up as the pride of the RN--a factor that's simply absent here. Given the RN's recent victory in battleship actions, they'll feel less vehement about getting revenge.
2) More ships to track. You've got the captured convoy, two cruisers, and Bismarck. It's not clear whether they'll be together, or sailing separately, or even towards the same destination.
3) The RN has a big rescue mission on its hands already, what with the Revenge adrift and fighting to stay afloat with an entire battleship's crew in need of aid. And the crews of those destroyers will need rescue, too.
4) Fewer ships available for the RN. Between Hood taking heavy damage, Revenge being all but dead, a pair of destroyers sunk, and whatever else...not to mention the fact that the KGV-class battleships are still having major teething issues with their turrets at this time, meaning that their contribution in any battle is going to be limited.

As far as Hitler's reaction goes...he's likely to be happy about the result. A clear victory that even features some spoils as an added bonus, and even if Bismarck takes weeks to repair, it's a big black eye to the British--Revenge is out of the war, along with two destroyers. And the British lost an entire convoy, too. Sure, the British have battleships to spare...but not that many, and Tirpitz will be on her way eventually...
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I'm not sure the fewer ships argument really holds up. Teething problems didn't stop Prince of Wales and King George V from being sortied, Nelson and Rodney are IIRC both still in the game and more than a match for Bismarck, and Ark Royal, Victorious, and I believe even Courageous are all still in the game in terms of air power. Even some of the QEs would be a much tougher fight for Bismarck to win because the ones with the modified Mk I 15" guns using the 6chrg rounds will be a much more significant threat to Bismarck, in addition to much improved fire control over the Rs.
 
landcollector said:
Well, yes and no. They beat Bisko in the firepower category, true, but she can just stick out her tongue and outrun them. The same for the QEs regarding speed.
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Part of the reason the british were so worried about the Bismark was the fact that it could outrun most of their heavies and easily outfight the lighter units. That put a strick limit on the Battleships that were capable of pursuing and doing something about it if they managed to catch up with the germans.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Not exactly. Seeing as Schriber probably knows exactly what the British are capable of, he's probably going to operate under strict radio silence until he gets close to port. Meaning that he won't even transmit news of his victory to anyone, and that the prize crews will enforce strict radio silence.

Regardless, the British response will probably be less intense than it was IRL, for a number of reasons:
1) Less damage to British pride. Revenge was one of the oldest and least modernized battleships in the RN. And it wasn't blown up shortly into the battle, but heavily damaged and crippled after a prolonged engagement. Hood was played up as the pride of the RN--a factor that's simply absent here. Given the RN's recent victory in battleship actions, they'll feel less vehement about getting revenge.
2) More ships to track. You've got the captured convoy, two cruisers, and Bismarck. It's not clear whether they'll be together, or sailing separately, or even towards the same destination.
3) The RN has a big rescue mission on its hands already, what with the Revenge adrift and fighting to stay afloat with an entire battleship's crew in need of aid. And the crews of those destroyers will need rescue, too.
4) Fewer ships available for the RN. Between Hood taking heavy damage, Revenge being all but dead, a pair of destroyers sunk, and whatever else...not to mention the fact that the KGV-class battleships are still having major teething issues with their turrets at this time, meaning that their contribution in any battle is going to be limited.

As far as Hitler's reaction goes...he's likely to be happy about the result. A clear victory that even features some spoils as an added bonus, and even if Bismarck takes weeks to repair, it's a big black eye to the British--Revenge is out of the war, along with two destroyers. And the British lost an entire convoy, too. Sure, the British have battleships to spare...but not that many, and Tirpitz will be on her way eventually...
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1. maybe maybe not, depends on how the british PR department plays it.
2. its just two groups. Bismark-pringles and Blucher-transports, the later of which has their size working against them as twenty ships are a lot easier to see than two or three.
3. Yes and No, the brits can easily scuttle her there and most likely over half the crews dead already meaning you don't need more than few destroyers to play pickup.
4. depends on which group your talking about, even the QE's can catch the convoy and given that its only protected by a single cruiser, any group that catches her is as guaranteed a win as you can get in war. And given that this is most likely July-August the KG's will likely have their turrets fixed by now.

and really this all depends on where the Germans are in the North Atlantic because if the Brits h have any ships already between either group and occupied Europe, speed becomes a lot less of a factor.
 
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Well, even with the teething troubles the quadruple turrets have and that they should be solved by this point, one fact remains. They aren't combat tested and the true test for any combat system is combat so their could be some hidden flaw in the quads that hasn't been discovered yet, what really helped result in Prince of Wales getting the utter crap beaten out of her by Bisko and Pringles -besides Hood getting sunk naturally- was because her Quads jammed meaning she only had her twin turret to fight back.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Well, even with the teething troubles the quadruple turrets have and that they should be solved by this point, one fact remains. They aren't combat tested and the true test for any combat system is combat so their could be some hidden flaw in the quads that hasn't been discovered yet, what really helped result in Prince of Wales getting the utter crap beaten out of her by Bisko and Pringles -besides Hood getting sunk naturally- was because her Quads jammed meaning she only had her twin turret to fight back.
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The quads were unreliable at the best of times.

York's quad had multiple guns miss salvos several times, and I believe the best ever achieved was 78% of ordered rounds fired.

For reference, triples typically fired 85-90% of ordered rounds, the missing rounds being due to drill errors rather than equipment failures.
 
Thorthemighty said:
Well, even with the teething troubles the quadruple turrets have and that they should be solved by this point, one fact remains. They aren't combat tested and the true test for any combat system is combat so their could be some hidden flaw in the quads that hasn't been discovered yet, what really helped result in Prince of Wales getting the utter crap beaten out of her by Bisko and Pringles -besides Hood getting sunk naturally- was because her Quads jammed meaning she only had her twin turret to fight back.
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yes and no, only one gun jammed on A turret, turret Y didn't jam until the tail end of the battle, well after she started taking hits.
 
Jrandom said:
Don't forget, Tanaka-san's last flagship was Teruzuki. Less than 2 weeks after Tassafarnoga, she was torpedoed by a couple of PT boats, and he was wounded and unconscious when the Japanese abandoned her to burn, explode and sink. This gave Combined Fleet HQ the opportunity to blame him for the losses at Guadalcanal (he had been an outspoken critic of the strategy, tactics, logistics and execution of the campaign), and to put him at a shore command in Burma, never to command another naval force for the Imperial Japanese Navy for the rest of the war. No doubt Frank Fletcher and Robert Ghormley regarded that as the best New Year's present they could have gotten for 1943.
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newwriter said:
Pretty much. In fact, Admiral Tanaka's nighttime supply runs were basically the only reason why the Japanese troops on Guadalcanal received any supplies or reinforcements.
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Still though, considering he WAS an outspoken critic of the latter half of the war, it really is amazing that he wasn't quietly 'dealt with', as in permanently, and somewhere random there's a nice Sakura Tree growing above his remains. To say nothing about how he was also not of the 'work the POWs until they die, then use more POWs' ideal, and viewed that as barbaric.
Which again, shows he had some serious loyalty coming to him from his subordinates and/or a few superior officers that quietly agreed with him, in his surviving the war.

So him being beached wasn't so much a bad thing, strategically, as getting him safely away from the kneejerk reactionaries so that, hopefully, he'd survive the war to help Japan rebuild. Tactically? Oh yes, it definitely screwed over the IJN down south. Strategically, it likely would have benefited Japan during the reconstruction.....

Had he not been so disillusioned by the government to outright resign in '46, and never went back.

Although yes, Fletcher & Ghormley likely *extremely* appreciated him being yanked off any warship commands for the rest of the war. Tanaka was a scarily competent officer, and you really, really, have to wonder how much of modern USN DD , FF, and even CL tactics, partially came from the USN's reactions to how he worked his assigned area.
 
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Sakuya's Butler said:
Still though, considering he WAS an outspoken critic of the latter half of the war, it really is amazing that he wasn't quietly 'dealt with', as in permanently, and somewhere random there's a nice Sakura Tree growing above his remains. To say nothing about how he was also not of the 'work the POWs until they die, then use more POWs' ideal, and viewed that as barbaric.
Which again, shows he had some serious loyalty coming to him from his subordinates and/or a few superior officers that quietly agreed with him, in his surviving the war.

So him being beached wasn't so much a bad thing, strategically, as getting him safely away from the kneejerk reactionaries so that, hopefully, he'd survive the war to help Japan rebuild. Tactically? Oh yes, it definitely screwed over the IJN down south. Strategically, it likely would have benefited Japan during the reconstruction.....

Had he not been so disillusioned by the government to outright resign in '46, and never went back.

Although yes, Fletcher & Ghormley likely *extremely* appreciated him being yanked off any warship commands for the rest of the war. Tanaka was a scarily competent officer, and you really, really, have to wonder how much of modern USN DD , FF, and even CL tactics, partially came from the USN's reactions to how he worked his assigned area.
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It was basically how daily interactions in the Japanese military was like. The Japanese Military during world war two was heavily divided due to factionalism. The interservice rivalry between Japanese Army and the Japanese Navy was so fierce that they basically considered each other enemies. In fact, they distrusted each other so much the Japanese Imperial Army built its own naval force and Japanese Imperial Navy built up its own personal ground force.
Both Japanese Army and Japanese Navy were divided into further factions who hated each other as well.
In regards to men like Rear Admiral Tanaka and Fleet Admiral Yamamoto who were hated by their superiors and fellow commanders. They were basically untouchable due to the massive amount of support they had among the enlisted men and junior officers. Yamamoto was pretty much beloved by his men which meant that Japanese High Command could not touch him. I bet it was the same with Rear Admiral Tanaka.
 
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newwriter said:
In fact, they distrusted each other so much the Japanese Imperial Army built its own naval force and Japanese Imperial Navy built up its own personal ground force.
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On this, from what five minutes on Wikipedia tells me, it doesn't look as if the IJA had anything more than subs and landing ships, which seems fairly reasonable (the modern US army operates a bunch of Landing Ships). The ground forces just kind of sound like Marines, to be honest.
 
Glitchrr36 said:
On this, from what five minutes on Wikipedia tells me, it doesn't look as if the IJA had anything more than subs and landing ships, which seems fairly reasonable (the modern US army operates a bunch of Landing Ships). The ground forces just kind of sound like Marines, to be honest.
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how about the fact that their 20mm cannon rounds were different cartridge lengths just so they wouldn't have to share ammo.
 
Glitchrr36 said:
On this, from what five minutes on Wikipedia tells me, it doesn't look as if the IJA had anything more than subs and landing ships, which seems fairly reasonable (the modern US army operates a bunch of Landing Ships). The ground forces just kind of sound like Marines, to be honest.
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Trust me. Interservice rivalry between the Japanese army and navy was really bad. The rivalry was one of the reasons that the army could not afford heavy tanks because all the high quality steel was going to the navy.
https://www.quora.com/How-bad-was-t...and-the-Imperial-Japanese-Navy-in-World-War-2
This rivalry took its roots from feudal sentiments that took their source during the Meiji period (1868-1912). At the time, the Japanese government was dominated by two groups of samurai clans: the Chōshū and the Satsuma. Afterward, the Army officer class was dominated by men from the former Chōshū domain, and the Navy was likewise dominated by men from the former Satsuma domain. These two groups were historically enemies, and their enmity is reflected by the rivalry and lack of cooperation between the two main branch of the Japanese military.

However, military glory and need of resources are also important causes of this long-term discord. In the early 1930s, both the Army and Navy had common goals: the expansion of the Japanese Empire, economic domination and seizure of strategic resources. But the methods were different. The IJA wanted to strike North, fight on land against China and the Soviet Union and invade Siberia. In contrast, the IJN wanted to strike South, fight by sea against the United States and the Commonwealth. The lack of cooperation led to the development of air arms for both the IJA and IJN. The Army also had its own amphibious infantry, ships and submarines (even aircraft carriers!). Meanwhile, the Navy created its own infantry and paratroop forces. But Japan couldn't afford the development of both the IJA and IJN, limited resources had to be prioritised.

The Navy however always had the support of the powerful industrial leaders that were convinced that their interests would be best served fulfilling the needs of the Navy. In fact in 1935, the IJN received 35% of the government's public expenditure. The Navy soon became powerful (the third in the world) while the Army wasn't prepared enough for the upcoming war. After the disastrous Battles of Khalkhin Gol, any farther expansion northward into Siberia was shown to be impossible given the Soviet superiority in number and armour, resulting in the loss of Army prestige. The Navy gained the ascendency, paving the way to the Pacific War.
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The IJA was completely dominant in the period before the war. The Prime Minister Tojo was an Army general and there were enough junior Army officers who might assassinate an opponent that Admiral Yamamoto often felt safer at sea than on land. Japan always had very limited steel production. The USA had five times the steel production of Japan, seven times the coal production and eighty times the automobile production capacity. Because of this economic disparity and the fact that Japan in an island nation, the Japanese merchant marine required a certain degree of protection. The Japanese navy was supposedly up to the task. For Japan, the Western Pacific was a source of raw materials and they had acquired a great deal of territory when they where in the Entente of WWI.

As for tanks versus battleships, the Japanese steel making industry was simply running at capacity and lacking a large native automotive industry Japan simply did not have the capacity to produce heavy Tanks. It is one reason they were chose not to attack the Soviet Union which had the capacity to manufacture tanks en masse.

The rivalry was very bitter. IJA officers almost all had been to Germany and spoke German. IJN officers had been to the USA instead.
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Glitchrr36 said:
On this, from what five minutes on Wikipedia tells me, it doesn't look as if the IJA had anything more than subs and landing ships, which seems fairly reasonable (the modern US army operates a bunch of Landing Ships). The ground forces just kind of sound like Marines, to be honest.
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Is not the kind of ships they used, but the fact that they knew the Navy would quite literaly sabotage any mission they were assigned to which they disliked and that even the missions they liked, like the aborted invasion of Midway, would be done without any kind of cross training or even the slightest amount of coordination.
 
Glitchrr36 said:
On this, from what five minutes on Wikipedia tells me, it doesn't look as if the IJA had anything more than subs and landing ships, which seems fairly reasonable (the modern US army operates a bunch of Landing Ships). The ground forces just kind of sound like Marines, to be honest.
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On top of what everyone else said, the Army and Navy had a bad habit of assassinating each other's senior officers.
 
CV12Hornet said:
On top of what everyone else said, the Army and Navy had a bad habit of assassinating each other's senior officers.
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To be fair the junior officers of the navy frequently killed the doves within their own service, to the point that Yamamoto had to be given fleet assigments every time he was instrumental on a moderate proposal. Also the Army officers started and escalated border incidents just to start wars that the japanese weren't quite prepared to fight.
 
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Shroobmaster said:
I wonder if at some point, Schreiber and Bismarck will have to go against the US navy.
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If Bismarck is still afloat when the US joins the war, and she's commerce raiding, she could run into a USN fast battleship.

Which probably ends poorly for Bismarck. The North Carolina, South Dakota, and Iowa classes are all better designed, with more firepower, better fire control computers, and a superior armor scheme.
 
Not to mention the US navies tendency to drown capital ships in aircraft means things are only going to be more difficult for Schreiber since he wants Bismarck to survive.
 
Shroobmaster said:
Not to mention the US navies tendency to drown capital ships in aircraft means things are only going to be more difficult for Schreiber since he wants Bismarck to survive.
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IIRC, the only US carrier in the Atlantic OTL was Ranger CV-4, because the Kriegsmarine is a much smaller threat than the IJN.
 
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