Remove ads

Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

Reader mode
PAGDTenno said:
1)Yes, you are. You're assuming they will do the dumbest thing possible. I'm saying it is possible they won't, and you're refusing to even concede that, maybe, just maybe, the branches of the Wehrmacht weren't routinely shooting at each other, seeing as there was an actual war for the Allies to fight.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Am I?
Always Late said:
Ok then.
How good are the Norway Luftwaffe's ship identification skills?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I just asked how good their ID skills were. Since the answer historically is 'not very', then who really is the one taking a hard line?
 
Yeah, the Luftwaffe weren't the best at identifiying their own ships. But, seeing a single Cruiser running escort for a merchant convoy that's heading to Germany and not angling south toward Britain may cause a Luftwaffe crew to take a closer look just in case well "they forgot to make a left turn at Albuquerque".
 
Thorthemighty said:
Yeah, the Luftwaffe weren't the best at identifiying their own ships. But, seeing a single Cruiser running escort for a merchant convoy that's heading to Germany and not angling south toward Britain may cause a Luftwaffe crew to take a closer look just in case well "they forgot to make a left turn at Albuquerque".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
but not before radioing the fleets position as a backup in case their brits and shoot him down...
 
Spectre said:
plus the Luftwaffe craft doesn't need to attack to screw her over. Remember how hard visual identification was from the air. More than likely the Luftwaffe pilot will see a cruiser, some merchant ships and radio it in for confirmation as is SOP. And the Luftwaffe codes were about as secure as a public wifi channel. Now if he is transmitting a identification code to the aircraft that changes everything... as long as the aircraft is German.

on the other hand Midway based Cat's and B-17's had no problem finding said carriers that morning, as did Yorktowns bombers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

What B17s? I'm looking through the order of battle for Midway, and I'm not finding a single one.

And yes, the torpedo bombers did.

But despite having the same starting information, the dive bombers went on a different intercept course, which didn't anticipate the course correction, and thus very nearly missed the Japanese fleet entirely.

Spectre said:
plus the Luftwaffe craft doesn't need to attack to screw her over. Remember how hard visual identification was from the air. More than likely the Luftwaffe pilot will see a cruiser, some merchant ships and radio it in for confirmation as is SOP. And the Luftwaffe codes were about as secure as a public wifi channel. Now if he is transmitting a identification code to the aircraft that changes everything... as long as the aircraft is German.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And the radio message will say "Unidentified merchant ships and cruiser near Location XXX". Or something like that. It won't have a detailed course and location for Blucher and the merchies because why would it?

Will the radio message improve the British odds of finding Blucher and her captives? Sure.

Guarantee it? Hell no.
 
Burning Baron said:
Most of them were taken out on the ground.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ah. That would be why. But the point stands. Interceptions at sea, even with known position and course are hard.

Always Late said:
That's what can happen when you rely on wikipedia articles.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This Order Of Battle.

Know the old saying about assumptions? Guess what just happened to you?

And guess what I'm about to do?

I'm going to do something you never do, and admit I was wrong. Must have skipped over them by accident. My bad.

There were B17s. They had no significant effect on the outcome of the battle.
 
Last edited:
PAGDTenno said:
What B17s? I'm looking through the order of battle for Midway, and I'm not finding a single one.

And yes, the torpedo bombers did.

But despite having the same starting information, the dive bombers went on a different intercept course, which didn't anticipate the course correction, and thus very nearly missed the Japanese fleet entirely.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Midway order of battle - Wikipedia

There were land-based Flying Fortresses, which launched the first (unsuccessful) attack wave.
 
PAGDTenno said:
Know the old saying about assumptions? Guess what just happened to you?

And guess what I'm about to do?

I'm going to do something you never do, and admit I was wrong. Must have skipped over them by accident. My bad.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As was I about the signal flags (I was under the assumption that like in a military vessel the merchant crew would do everything in their power to render the ship unusable with the time they had before being boarded.)
That being said I think we can both agree that while Blutcher has a chance to survive, it would be far greater without the twenty anchors following her.
 
Looking at that Order of Battle, they're near the bottom of the list of US Forces, starting with '7th Army Air Force Bomber Command.'
 
Spectre said:
As was I about the signal flags (I was under the assumption that like in a military vessel the merchant crew would do everything in their power to render the ship unusable with the time they had before being boarded.)
That being said I think we can both agree that while Blutcher has a chance to survive, it would be far greater without the twenty anchors following her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes, escorting prize ships is generally at least somewhat risky.

Know what else is risky? War.
 
PAGDTenno said:
Yes, escorting prize ships is generally at least somewhat risky.

Know what else is risky? War.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
there's a difference between acceptable and unacceptable risks.

not only is Schrieber risking Blucher on this, he's risking his entire plan.
Blucher can't run into any british forces or she's stuck with two options:

1.Cut the transports loose and make a run for it.
2. Die defending them.

If Blucher returns empty handed (or worse doesn't return at all) the missions going to be a failure in the eyes of Hitler. The far safer option would have been to have to take the transports to Brest, its a far shorter distance and All three warships would make anything other than the entire home fleet think twice.
 
Last edited:
Spectre said:
If Blucher returns empty handed (or worse doesn't return at all) the missions going to be a failure in the eyes of Hitler. The far safer option would have been to have to take the transports to Brest, its a far shorter distance and All three warships would make anything other than the entire home fleet think twice.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And both Bikso and mini-Bisko could also escort them. True, Schreiber feels Bisko doesn't have enough AA, but three ships are better than one.
 
Come to think of it, do we know what Schreiber's plan is? I mean, if he's trying to ensure Bismarck doesn't get sunk then being forced to abandon transports might be just the right level of failure to not get him stripped of his command but to still see Bizzy pulled off raiding duty and put in a defensive positioning?

Dunno if there's any validity to it but it's a thought...
 
Always Late said:
And both Bikso and mini-Bisko could also escort them. True, Schreiber feels Bisko doesn't have enough AA, but three ships are better than one.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
exactly, and if Bismark doesn't have enough AA dakka, Blucher definitely won't.
Spectral Waltz said:
Come to think of it, do we know what Schreiber's plan is? I mean, if he's trying to ensure Bismarck doesn't get sunk then being forced to abandon transports might be just the right level of failure to not get him stripped of his command but to still see Bizzy pulled off raiding duty and put in a defensive positioning?

Dunno if there's any validity to it but it's a thought...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hitler made it clear that unless the Mission produces a major success on the convoy raiding front, the surface fleet is dead as an operational arm of the KM. If Schreiber doesn't have proof outside of his word that the convoy was sunk, all he has to show is a antique battleships badly damaged, a destroyer and two transports sunk and him heading to france with his tail between his legs with minor damage to his ships(possibly minus one of the KM's 6 combat capable capital ships)...hardly a resounding success.
 
Last edited:
Question for all.
Has Sky said that we will eventually see fairies along with their shipgirls?
 
Spectre said:
there's a difference between acceptable and unacceptable risks.

not only is Schrieber risking Blucher on this, he's risking his entire plan.
Blucher can't run into any british forces or she's stuck with two options:

1.Cut the transports loose and make a run for it.
2. Die defending them.

If Blucher returns empty handed (or worse doesn't return at all) the missions going to be a failure in the eyes of Hitler. The far safer option would have been to have to take the transports to Brest, its a far shorter distance and All three warships would make anything other than the entire home fleet think twice.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Or, the option you're not considering, she could torpedo/shoot the transports and book it.

The primary objective of a commerce raider is to deny the enemy war materials. Taking them for yourself, while nice, is a secondary objective. Coming back after denying the British a significant convoy is not a failure, it is a smaller success than it could have been.

Furthermore, by sending Blücher back with the merchies, Bismarck and Prinz Eugen are free to keep hunting for new convoys, while posing a threat the British must honor.
 
Spectre said:
unless the Mission produces a major success on the convoy raiding front
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, a heavily damaged Revenge and a whole convoy would count as a win, I suppose. Considering that she was the only captitol ship in the British Isles around the time Operation Sea Lion was a possibility in OTL, it may not end well. At this point in the war, England doesn't have the resources to repair a battleship that badly damaged. Warspite, damaged by German aircraft during the Invasion of Crete, sailed to Bremerton Naval Yards, in Washington state the long way, from Suez to the Pacific Northwest, because Britain didn't have the resources to repair her.

Can't believe I mixed the German and English names. Seelowe and Sea Lion. Dammit.
 
Last edited:
PAGDTenno said:
Or, the option you're not considering, she could torpedo/shoot the transports and book it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
More Germans shooting each other, but this time it's intentional!
Burning Baron said:
Well, a heavily damaged Revenge and a whole convoy would count as a win, I suppose. Considering that she was the only captitol ship in the British Isles around the time Operation See Lion was a possibility in OTL, it may not end well. At this point in the war, England doesn't have the resources to repair a battleship that badly damaged. Warspite, damaged by German aircraft during the Invasion of Crete, sailed to Bremerton Naval Yards, in Washington state the long way, from Suez to the Pacific Northwest, because Britain didn't have the resources to repair her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
While that has been a plotpoint with Hood, the loss of capitol ships is something Britain can afford for a time. The loss of merchant shipping is far more important, as no ship, plane, soldier, or country can fight without food. Sea Lion was a half-hearted pipe dream even when it was drawn up, and Hitler's about to invade Russia. If Schreiber is to convince Hitler that oil needed for his panzers are to be diverted to the Kriegsmarine surface fleet, he needs to majorly disrupt the convoys and push Britain to the brink. A full early-war convoy stolen back to Germany is good for the propoganda department, but that's not going to make a significant difference in the tonnage war.
 
Last edited:
Always Late said:
More Germans shooting each other, but this time it's intentional!

While that has been a plotpoint with Hood, the loss of capitol ships is something Britain can afford for a time. The loss of merchant shipping is far more important, as no ship, plane, soldier, or country can fight without food. Sea Lion's was a half-hearted pipe dream even when it was drawn up, and Hitler's about to invade Russia. If Schreiber is to convince Hitler that oil needed for his panzers are to be diverted to the Kriegsmarine surface fleet, he needs to majorly disrupt the convoys and push Britain to the brink. A full early-war convoy stolen back to Germany is good for the propoganda department, but that's not going to make a significant difference in the tonnage war.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
True.
Although it makes me wonder what the convoy was carrying?
Has Sky told us what the convey's cargo was?
 
Burning Baron said:
Well, a heavily damaged Revenge and a whole convoy would count as a win, I suppose. Considering that she was the only captitol ship in the British Isles around the time Operation See Lion was a possibility in OTL, it may not end well. At this point in the war, England doesn't have the resources to repair a battleship that badly damaged. Warspite, damaged by German aircraft during the Invasion of Crete, sailed to Bremerton Naval Yards, in Washington state the long way, from Suez to the Pacific Northwest, because Britain didn't have the resources to repair her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
considering by now KGV and PoW are in operation as well as both Nelsons and Renowns being in the area...The home fleets covered. And that's if the brits don't decide to scuttle her on the spot and continue on the chase.

And if Bluchers lost that's 20% percent of the useable KM capitals ship strength down the drain, Which makes it far closer to an even trade when you look at the numbers.
PAGDTenno said:
Or, the option you're not considering, she could torpedo/shoot the transports and book it.

The primary objective of a commerce raider is to deny the enemy war materials. Taking them for yourself, while nice, is a secondary objective. Coming back after denying the British a significant convoy is not a failure, it is a smaller success than it could have been.

Furthermore, by sending Blücher back with the merchies, Bismarck and Prinz Eugen are free to keep hunting for new convoys, while posing a threat the British must honor.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So bluchers going to sink over a dozen merchant ships and then still have enough time to make a run for it. Even assuming she evacuates all the crews from them that's going to take some serious time and runs on the assumption that said vessels won't be between her and home territory.

as for the double threat, you don't need much to deal with Blucher, a couple of cruisers with a few destroyers as escort would win handily, leaving the rest of the home fleet to hunt Bismarck down.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top