Changing Destiny (Kancolle)

She capsized after Sydney was sent back to finish her off.

The Brits having left her adrift after crippling her in favor of chasing after her sisters. Realizing they couldn't catch said sisters, Sydney got sent back to finish Espero off. A few broadsides of fire, and she capsized. So I doubt they shot at her once it as apparent she was finished.

*Espero fired back when Sydney returned though, so she was still combat-capable to some extent before capsizing.
 
She capsized after Sydney was sent back to finish her off.

The Brits having left her adrift after crippling her in favor of chasing after her sisters. Realizing they couldn't catch said sisters, Sydney got sent back to finish Espero off. A few broadsides of fire, and she capsized. So I doubt they shot at her once it as apparent she was finished.

*Espero fired back when Sydney returned though, so she was still combat-capable to some extent before capsizing.
OK. Second question, similar purpose. How many hits were confirmed? There's a difference between constantly missing and durable construction.*

*One could also add sell quality/capabilities to that as well.
 
Now that sounds like a tough little ship. Shame stories like that wind up so marginalized.

And now I kinda want to learn Italian so I can read those Italian sources...

OK. Second question, similar purpose. How many hits were confirmed? There's a difference between constantly missing and durable construction.*

*One could also add sell quality/capabilities to that as well.

Considering that Sky specifically referred to her theoretical KanColle version likely having a high evasion stat, I'd guess that most of the shots were supposed to be misses.
 
*shrug due to lack of information*

Can't say. There's not a whole lot of information, and all I can say for certain from what I have is that it took the Brits almost an hour of shooting at her before they crippled Espero in the first place.

Sydney supposedly only fired a handful of broadsides afterwards to sink her.

So...most of the shots were almost certainly misses. Bad British marksmanship or Espero being Edsall's rival. One of the two. But when the wording of the book is 'deluged the destroyer in six-inch salvos' prior to hitting her engines...
 
*shrug due to lack of information*

Can't say. There's not a whole lot of information, and all I can say for certain from what I have is that it took the Brits almost an hour of shooting at her before they crippled Espero in the first place.

Sydney supposedly only fired a handful of broadsides afterwards to sink her.

So...most of the shots were almost certainly misses. Bad British marksmanship or Espero being Edsall's rival. One of the two. But when the wording of the book is 'deluged the destroyer in six-inch salvos' prior to hitting her engines...
OK, those are fair points. I can trust your source had that word choice for a specific reason. And that high agility does tie into Italian ship design of the 20's: short (Med operations only) range, but high-performance engines. Made them finicky and of delicate, but when they worked, you can tell how effective they were even twenty years after their launch.
Plus that nickname just makes me giggle like a twelve year old: Italian Ninja Loli.:V
 
And that high agility does tie into Italian ship design of the 20's: short (Med operations only) range, but high-performance engines. Made them finicky and of delicate, but when they worked, you can tell how effective they were even twenty years after their launch.
Like the E-type Jaguars. Very finicky. Saying goes 'You need a Mechanic as your copilot.'
 
*shrug due to lack of information*

Can't say. There's not a whole lot of information, and all I can say for certain from what I have is that it took the Brits almost an hour of shooting at her before they crippled Espero in the first place.

Sydney supposedly only fired a handful of broadsides afterwards to sink her.

So...most of the shots were almost certainly misses. Bad British marksmanship or Espero being Edsall's rival. One of the two. But when the wording of the book is 'deluged the destroyer in six-inch salvos' prior to hitting her engines...
honestly the more I read about the Royal Navy in both world wars, the more unimpressed I am with them.
 
honestly the more I read about the Royal Navy in both world wars, the more unimpressed I am with them.
I can't see how that could be true. They survived. That's gotta count for something.

EDIT:By which I mean, the Royal Navy survived despite being outclassed, undergunned, or flat out obsolete in almost every Theater they were present in. And this, on top of all the other problems the RN had at the time. Bad armor, incompetency in leadership. The biggest advantage they had was the DDs they received from the US, because of the sheer numbers.
 
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I can't see how that could be true. They survived. That's gotta count for something.

EDIT:By which I mean, the Royal Navy survived despite being outclassed, undergunned, or flat out obsolete in almost every Theater they were present in. And this, on top of all the other problems the RN had at the time. Bad armor, incompetency in leadership. The biggest advantage they had was the DDs they received from the US, because of the sheer numbers.
considering they were one of the top three navies in the world... that's not really saying anything good about them.
 
considering they were one of the top three navies in the world... that's not really saying anything good about them.
At the time, most of their navy was either sunk, on the other side of the world, or sunk on the other side of the world. They were in top three because of numbers, not quality. Pre war USN wasn't very high on the list either.

ADDENDUM: The IJN was the most technologically advanced navy at the time. No question. But the application of said technology, and the navy itself, were wasted. They didn't tie their RADAR in to the fire control. DAMCON was a joke, considering the emphasis they placed on training. Even the fighter craft were leaps ahead of the USN, the RAF, and the Dutch Air Arm. Just looking at the specs doesn't tell the whole story. It's a lot that goes into a Functional Navy.
 
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Wait, what the fuck? Since when is the WWII-era Royal Navy now bad? This is the navy in which probably one of the most underarmored and underarmed capital ships of the war singlehandedly forced both of Germany's battlecruisers to turn away, that crippled flagships and navies with biplanes, had the best gunnery record of the war, one of the most decorated Line of Battle Ships in history, and developed the technologies and tactics that one the Battle of the Atlantic. Far from being outclassed, under-gunned or obsolete, the vast majority of the time in the European theaters they were the exact opposite. Their operations in the Pacific and Indean Oceans are a different story, but those were considered minor theaters anyway wot with war raging on the home front and all - had war not been raging in Europe, the Royal Navy likely would not have suffered many of the early defeats it faced in the Pacific.

I get that the internet likes to jerk off over the juggernaut that was America's war potential in WWII (and I am at times guilty of this myself. God Save the 13 States motherfuckers), but there's a line that exists between that and between flat out refusing to acknowledge or even outright belittling the significant achievements of the Royal Navy in WWII, which is especially bad considering that the US government at the time actively participated in that themselves, going as far as to rename many critical British developments to make them appear as American ones, and outright refusing to allow the British Pacific Fleet to participate in some of the later operations against Japan.
 
Wait, what the fuck? Since when is the WWII-era Royal Navy now bad?
I can't see how that could be true. They survived. That's gotta count for something.

EDIT:By which I mean, the Royal Navy survived despite being outclassed, undergunned, or flat out obsolete in almost every Theater they were present in. And this, on top of all the other problems the RN had at the time. Bad armor, incompetency in leadership. The biggest advantage they had was the DDs they received from the US, because of the sheer numbers.
They survived by sheer Stiff Upper Lip. They survived, DESPITE all advantages that the Axis had over them.

Far from being outclassed, under-gunned or obsolete, the vast majority of the time in the European theaters they were the exact opposite.
I never said they weren't outnumbered. "Quantity is a quality all its own." The Kriegsmarine did, however, have better ships, if only on paper, since Tiny Stache aborted that child. The Bismarck killed Hood with a magazine detonation. A problem that had been illustrated three decades earlier, at Jutland. And, Warspite was never given desperately needed dock-time, because the Admiralty needed to show their dick on the table, and almost lost her too.

Their operations in the Pacific and Indean Oceans are a different story, but those were considered minor theaters anyway wot with war raging on the home front and all - had war not been raging in Europe, the Royal Navy likely would not have suffered many of the early defeats it faced in the Pacific.
The oil and rubber the Empire received from SE Asia begs to differ. And the Juggernaut that was the IJN would have destroyed the RN forces regardless. But, their sacrifices would have given the Home Fleet time to arrive.

I get that the internet likes to jerk off over the juggernaut that was America's war potential in WWII
As awful as the movie was, Michael Bay's Pearl Harbor did have a good point. In it, FDR said it plainly. "We're busy building refrigerators, while our enemies build bombs." Potential is all well and good, but an industry in motion is a beautiful, and potentially deadly, thing.

flat out refusing to acknowledge or even outright belittling the significant achievements of the Royal Navy in WWII
Although it wasn't the British Army's finest hour, the Miracle at Dunkirk, which is finally getting the Hollywood Treatment, shows how the United Kingdom of Britain, Sotland, and Northern Ireland, capitalization mandatory, refused to give up. Thousands stranded on the beaches of France, and almost every private boat owner on the souther coast of England sailed ACROSS the English Channel, despite the danger, to load up with soldiers, while UNDER FIRE, and SAILED BACK, with Stukas AND 109s overhead. The RAF, the SAS, and definitely the British Army, but most of all, the Royal Navy, held the line. The Dutch Navy was almost for appearances, but they got their licks in, but is was the Royal Navy that held the torch of freedom. Through them, and Canada, the sea lanes of the North Atlantic stayed open. Through them, the Regia Marina was sunk at harbor at Taranto, a feat thought impossible.

The Royal Navy was the bulwark against the darkness. I would never detract from what they did.
 
the issue is that The RN was rather inconsistent. While they won big quite a few times, they lost big just as many:
Wins:
Taranto (the fact that everyone else with a carrier copied the plan at some point in the war speaks for itself
Tech and tactics (radar, sonar, convoys, code breaking, etc)
The med in general
Bismark post Denmark Strait
Renown and Duke of York against the twins.

Times where the messed up and lucked out:
River Plate
Norway
Logistics and repair/dry dock schedule

SNAFU's
Courageous, Glorious, Hermes
Denmark Strait
anything involving SEA pre 1943
Royal Oak.

I would say bad, but it's definitely underwhelming. They did good work, but quite frankly they should have done much better given all their advantages over both Germany and Italy.
 
The Kriegsmarine did, however, have better ships, if only on paper

Calling the Kriegsmarine's warship classes (I will refrain from blanket saying warships in general as one of the Leipzig class Light Cruisers was built in the mid 30s) good in any sense of the word is an insult to shipbuilders of the time across the planet. Hell, it's an insult to shipbuilders from World War I across the planet. Their DD classes were unremarkable and by and large failed to put up any major resistance when push came to shove. Their heavy cruisers, the Admiral Hipper class, were horrendously overweight and offered little advantage over contemporary heavy cruisers, the Hippers especially, being 4000 tons lighter than the contemporary Zara class cruisers while being slower and with a thinner belt, the only real advantage on the Hipper's side being deck armor. The Deuschland-class was an interesting attempt at a Large Cruiser and the only real example that saw active service, but aside from Admiral Scheer which I will admit had an impressive record the class was of little consequence, and the speed and lack of armor weren't really appropriate for a Heavy Cruiser of the time. And the Battleships and Battlecruisers I should think need no explanation as to why the only pedestal they should be on is the "how not to build a Warship" section of the shipbuilder's textbook.

The Bismarck killed Hood with a magazine detonation. A problem that had been illustrated three decades earlier, at Jutland.

Hood's loss was due to no fault of contemporary design but rather because no-one ever thought to transfer the flagship position to another vessel just once to complete her modernization, which would have removed her torpedo tubes and prevented them from detonating and setting off the chain reaction which sunk the ship.

And, Warspite was never given desperately needed dock-time, because the Admiralty needed to show their dick on the table, and almost lost her too.

Warspite was not "almost lost", nor were her rudder issues as critical to her operations as you seem to be suggesting, considering the extent of her service in the North Atlantic, Mediterranean, and Indian Ocean theaters. The "almost lost" you are referring to, would be the bombing attack she suffered in September of 1943, which while inflicting serious damage to the ship, did not inflict significant enough damage that her buoyancy was compromised, though she did have to be towed back to port and at one point broke the towing lines (she had a bit of a habit of doing that)


The oil and rubber the Empire received from SE Asia begs to differ. And the Juggernaut that was the IJN would have destroyed the RN forces regardless. But, their sacrifices would have given the Home Fleet time to arrive.

While the actual strategic import of Britain's SEA positions can certainly not be called into question, the fact remains that the Admiralty did not consider the theater important enough to send significant reinforcements until 1944. As for the IJN, they were far from the "Juggernaut" that some claim it to be. The only impressive part of the Japanese navy was their early pioneering of the Carrier fleet doctrine, and their early development into naval fighters which gave them a comfortable lead in that department until around 1943. That said, the Zero's superiority was not necessarily something that could always be counted on, as despite outclassing the Wildcat fighters the US used up until 1943 when they were replaced in service by the Hellcat, the US Navy still decisively won the Battle of Midway in 1942 by sinking all present Japanese carriers, which is part of why I say that had the war not been raging in Europe, though Force Z of course would likely still have been lost, the Royal Navy with a significant force would have been able to prevent themselves being forced out of the theater entirely.


As awful as the movie was, Michael Bay's Pearl Harbor did have a good point. In it, FDR said it plainly. "We're busy building refrigerators, while our enemies build bombs." Potential is all well and good, but an industry in motion is a beautiful, and potentially deadly, thing.

America's war potential was industry in motion. Factories building civilian goods don't contribute to a country's war potential, active military factories an active forces and equipment in service are what make up a nation's war potential.


Through them, the Regia Marina was sunk at harbor at Taranto, a feat thought impossible.

The only success of Taranto was that it showed that an attack by air *was* a viable option, which is part of what led the Japanese to go through with Pearl Harbor. And like Pearl Harbor, the attack was ultimately inconsequential - only one of the RMs ships was actually sunk, the rest were only damaged, and the attack utterly failed to stop Axis convoys moving to North Africa, and did nothing to stop the RM from sortieing out its capital ships.
 
Add to the SNAFUs, the sheer inability to maintain harbor security at Alexandria harbor, allowing Italian frogmen to attach mines to Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, and cause enough damage to knock both ships out of action for a significant amount of time and almost sink the QE.

The British armed forces have always had to pay and suffer for their high command's hubris.
 

Preemptive, because I know how heated arguments on the subject of effectiveness of ships or navies can get. As long as it's kept civil I'm fine, but don't go overboard, alright?


Also, Bisko and Scharn are far from the worst battleships ever designed. The former is certainly overweight for her size- dodges 15-inch shellfire -but they are fundamentally perfectly functional and serviceable designs for a nation that hadn't built or even been allowed to design capital ships for twenty years. That Germany managed to make ships as good as they did without being allowed to design things bigger than cruisers since the end of WW1? That's impressive.

There are flaws, certainly. But generally speaking, there isn't anything about them that makes them particularly bad. Scharn is a ship designed to be a fast raider, more than to stand against an enemy capital ship. She would have excelled at this role, given the chance. Not to mention that her guns- had they been fitted with the 15-inch -would have been more than capable of outdueling the ships that did cause her issues.

Bisko was sunk by bad luck, more than anything else. Swordfish were both too slow and too low for her AA to effectively engage, not that her AA sucked (I mean, it isn't great, but it's not as memetically bad as people say). Even then it was a hilariously unlucky hit that took her out. PoW got hit in a similar spot by the Japanese, and she was basically gutted by her own propeller shafts.

Bismarck's real issue is more in the fact that everyone else- with more design experience -were also building some of the best examples of battleships in the world. And even then...these also had issues.

KGV would always lag in firepower, and until post-PoW-sinking modifications had some issues with protection.

Littorio is actually, arguably, the best designed of her time overall. Her TDS is very effective, her guns are great- when they have good and reliable ammunition. Most of her inaccuracy issues come from the ammo, not the guns. She lacks range sure, but she was never intended to leave the Med. Her AA has relative issues, but compared to the Americans everyone does. For what they were designed to do...

Richelieu has decent armor and guns, and is better protected than Bismarck. But even with precautions to keep her turrets operational- the French method of dividing Quads into basically two twin-mounts glued together -if one is hit wrong, that's half her firepower gone.

Iowa...for all the great things about these ships, their TDS is still badly flawed enough that the USN wanted to go back to an older design because it worked better.

Yamato has all the issues one would expect from a ship her size. But most importantly, her torpedo protection- seeing a trend here outside Littorio? -is flawed. If she's hit wrong, plates are going to buckle in ways they aren't designed to. Much can be said of the punishment that Yams and Mushi took to sink, but the fact of the matter is it was overkill. Musashi was doomed after the first few hits, but hitting her on both sides had her sinking on a level keel. Yamato was doomed well before we stopped attacking her and she capsized. Their sheer bulk lead to taking a lot of sinking, more than their protection being especially effective.

So...yeah. Calling Bisko something for 'how not to build a warship' is unfair to her, and the people who designed her with no experience in designing a modern battleship outside Scharn.
 
I would like to preface by saying I was thinking of Hood for the 'No Dry-Dock,' but Warspite was also severely damaged during Anti-Air operations off of Crete, during the German invasion, to the point she had to be sailed to Bremerton Naval Yard for repairs, like CD's Hood, kind of.
Hood's loss was due to no fault of contemporary design but rather because no-one ever thought to transfer the flagship position to another vessel just once to complete her modernization, which would have removed her torpedo tubes and prevented them from detonating and setting off the chain reaction which sunk the ship.
Hood-ipedia said:
A huge jet of flame burst out of Hood from the vicinity of the mainmast,[Note 1] followed by a devastating magazine explosion that destroyed the aft part of the ship. This explosion broke the back of Hood, and the last sight of the ship, which sank in only three minutes, was her bow, nearly vertical in the water.[66]
We've known that it was a Mag Det since 2001.
Factories building civilian goods don't contribute to a country's war potential, active military factories an active forces and equipment in service are what make up a nation's war potential.
The point I was making was that before war production really got moving, the rate of construction for a US warships was months to a year, for smaller craft. By the middle of the war, that rate has increased to several hulls a month, all combat ready. Think of it like a physics lesson. Potential energy, versus kinetic energy.
While the actual strategic import of Britain's SEA positions can certainly not be called into question, the fact remains that the Admiralty did not consider the theater important enough to send significant reinforcements until 1944. As for the IJN, they were far from the "Juggernaut" that some claim it to be. The only impressive part of the Japanese navy was their early pioneering of the Carrier fleet doctrine, and their early development into naval fighters which gave them a comfortable lead in that department until around 1943. That said, the Zero's superiority was not necessarily something that could always be counted on, as despite outclassing the Wildcat fighters the US used up until 1943 when they were replaced in service by the Hellcat, the US Navy still decisively won the Battle of Midway in 1942 by sinking all present Japanese carriers, which is part of why I say that had the war not been raging in Europe, though Force Z of course would likely still have been lost, the Royal Navy with a significant force would have been able to prevent themselves being forced out of the theater entirely.
Battle of the Java Sea - Wikipedia
And, the USN merely damaged the carriers. All four, Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, and Soryu, were all scuttled after the fact. Besides, it wasn't just fighter craft that won the day.
The only success of Taranto was that it showed that an attack by air *was* a viable option, which is part of what led the Japanese to go through with Pearl Harbor. And like Pearl Harbor, the attack was ultimately inconsequential - only one of the RMs ships was actually sunk, the rest were only damaged, and the attack utterly failed to stop Axis convoys moving to North Africa, and did nothing to stop the RM from sortieing out its capital ships.
Pearl Harbor losses said:
4 battleships sunk
4 battleships damaged
2 other ships sunk[nb 2]
3 cruisers damaged[nb 3]
3 destroyers damaged
3 other ships damaged
188 aircraft destroyed
159[3] aircraft damaged
2,403 killed
1,178 wounded
Doesn't seem inconsequential to me.
Italian casualties at Taranto said:
59 killed
600 wounded
1 battleship lost
2 battleships heavily damaged
1 heavy cruiser slightly damaged
2 destroyers slightly damaged
2 aircraft destroyed on the ground
And that was with only one carrier.
The B-25 Mitchell raid on Tokyo was also a strategic failure. Sure, the RM rebounded quickly, but these losses were ones that Inigo Campioni, and Mussolini, could ill afford. But. most of all, it was something considered impossible. Consider how that felt for the average British citizen, hiding in Underground tunnels because the German Air Force is busy knocking down your neighborhood. If they can do the impossible there, then maybe the RAF here has a chance.
We're on topic, kind of. We're discussing OTL, which has many parralels here, either intentional or not. For example, HMS Warspite, after being damaged heavily, was towed to Bremerton Naval Shipyard, in Bremerton, Washington.
 
Unsure whether to bring up critiques of the Littorio design...

Ah, fuck it. Suffice to say, the Littorio class has two major design flaws that I think exclude from a discussion on 'best battleship design'. Now, don't get me wrong, it was a very good design: high speed, powerful guns, and awesome side protection. But those two flaws are big ones. The first is the Pugliese TDS, which everything I've read says didn't work as advertised. The system was, in essence, a cylinder filled with crush tubes that took up the entire volume. The idea was that the torpedo would expend its energy against the cylinder, but in practice IIRC it instead simply vented the energy around the cylinder to the concave bulkhead holding the cylinder in place, through which the energy could punch through to the interior compartments.

Of more relevance to battleship engagements, her deck armor scheme (which is complex and I'm not sure the information I have is accurate) has... issues. The magazine protection, 150mm over 12mm plating, was very good, but the deck over machinery was 100mm on 12mm plating, and outboard the inner plating the deck was only 90mm. As such, there was relatively little hull protected by an armored deck anyone would consider adequate for the time.
 
Then the way forward is obvious. Thompson must take the best design features from every battleship in the world, and combine them into a SUPER BATTLESHIP. With a wave motion gun. :V
 
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