Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
@Blackstar: So what is going on with the Venera program? Would we need to increase funding in order to repeat the OTL Soviet successes on the planet? Or is the moon race putting pressure on Klimenko to do more with the Luna program?
Your scientists do not believe that a landing is possible with current probes and that it would be of negligible scientific impact if it would succeed because anything down there would fail quickly. There are still proposals for orbiter programs, but those aren't going for the landing.


To be honest, I wouldn't mind an earlier Mariner/Voyager Program.

Also, Could someone please create a mockup for what we can reasonably expect the RLA to do?

Also, Is/Would the Silverbird Performance Calculator a good reference?
It is, I think the engine statistics are posted into thread somewhere, both in terms of seconds burn and everything, from there its more a question of tank mass assumptions. First stage is ~360 tons, second stage is closer to 100 tons.
 
My Bad, I was more thinking of initially doing direct fly-bys/orbiters of the outer planets
Certainly an option, though orbiter capture for Jupiter and Saturn are possible, flight times are increased a bit for that though. Mainly because you need fuel/heatshields to stop as well then. Still they already do captures for Mars, so it's not really unknown tech and the RLA-3 for instance would give a large margin to play with for an early probe if they decided they need it.

Uranus and Neptune are the some what tough ones due to very long flight times, it gets less bad with a powerful enough launcher or if the planets align well to launch something out there though. The next alignment would be in the 70s I think.
 
Internal Movements[/B]

...
So all the political shitstorms headed for us seem to have somehow collided with each other en route, leaving us relatively clean... but with fields of shit as far as the eye can see. Do I have that right?

Reorganization of Agricultural Subsidies: Without the significant backing of Abramov or a desire for effective political immolation immediately before the 1969 elections, the grain subsidy is expected to be unassailable. This however does not mean that it cannot be worked around or even optimistically fixed at a set rate for a time to allow other areas of the agricultural sector to prosper. The state goal of keeping incomes high and the price of goods low can easily be turned towards focusing on goods outside of the most basic of foods, allowing diversity in production at some additional financial costs. (7)

Any reduction in grain subsidies has been rendered impossible to implement to any reasonable extent. This has not prevented further pushes towards the agricultural sector improving the production of alternative goods at cost to the state, but ensuring that cheaper food items can be supplied to the workers. Increased funding commitments have only been passed as an element of economic crisis and the sinking worker wages causing further political issues. Meat products along with several types of vegetables regarded as highly nutritious have received a set of production subsidies to lower end prices and encourage their consumption. Spending will increase massively to compensate for the rest of the sector but physical demonstrations of lower prices will massively help with any discontent.
So, uh... as I understand it, we didn't manage to reduce the stupid grain subsidy, but did increase a bunch of other agricultural subsidies? Hm. Yeah, the good news is that the farmers aren't basically forced to grow redundant grain, but the bad news is that we're committed to even more agricultural subsidies.

Farmer Flexibility Legislation: Broadly entirely deregulating what farmers can and cannot plant for state enterprises can significantly improve efficacy. The local management has a decent idea of what needs to be planted and forming strong recommendations has involved a massive degree of incorrect guessing that more often than not is a political deadweight. Inducing flexibility and market prices can allow the ministry to work entirely on the demand end, simplifying funding and improving general sector efficiency. (-5) (Critfail)

The passage of legislation towards the deregulation of enterprises has been seen as a massive attack on the development of the Socialist economy and an infringement on the initiative of the managers. By some interpretations, the reform was treated as consolidating the control over planting in the ministry leading to massive walkouts. Enough was even said on a similar line that it became a common opinion leading to a divergence of views that nonetheless agreed that decisive agricultural action was needed. Breaking from the advice of the ministry politicians they have advocated for a "decisive" and radical course to fix the agricultural sector. Total deregulation of planting based on profitability has been passed along with delegating significant portions of land management to the enterprises. Even now, constant attacks have been wielded by the most attached politicians on the ministry as an example of insufficiency and bureaucratic overreach.
I'm a little confused about what happened here, but it sounds like the Supreme Soviet has basically just let the actual farming enterprises just grow lol whatever they think is a good idea, more or less ending that aspect of central planning of agriculture.

Can someone explain what's going on here to me?
 
So, uh... as I understand it, we didn't manage to reduce the stupid grain subsidy, but did increase a bunch of other agricultural subsidies? Hm. Yeah, the good news is that the farmers aren't basically forced to grow redundant grain, but the bad news is that we're committed to even more agricultural subsidies.
Well, the money spent on agriculture is actually a fairly low issue right now, considering the economy is currently in a depression. It's not all bad though - I'm pretty sure we can get Podgorny on board for fixing agricultural subsidies, once politics has calmed down to the usual craziness.
I'm a little confused about what happened here, but it sounds like the Supreme Soviet has basically just let the actual farming enterprises just grow lol whatever they think is a good idea, more or less ending that aspect of central planning of agriculture.
Not farming enterprises in general, but State-Owned-Enterprises specifically. They basically took away our control over land distribution and gave them to the agricultural party managers, which has some negative impacts. I'm worried about local bureaucrats depleting the soil for cash crops, since that makes numbers go high in this quarter. Fortunately, politics is such a shitshow that this rule regarding decisive agricultural action might not last long.
 
I'm a little confused about what happened here, but it sounds like the Supreme Soviet has basically just let the actual farming enterprises just grow lol whatever they think is a good idea, more or less ending that aspect of central planning of agriculture.

Can someone explain what's going on here to me?

As far as I understand it, the shits at the Agricultural Enterprises just got complete independence from the Ministry allowing them to effectively become their own fiefdoms. I think the agricultural reforms that were passed are also being used by the Enterprises for their own benefit instead of benefiting the Rurals as was intended. I want them butchered for pulling that stunt and doing it while in the middle of a political crisis.
 
The RLA-5 got axed with the budget cut. There was some attempt to try and figure out a way cut funding that would keep it going, but that didn't work out and so none of the options we got would have saved it.
The good news is that things like the RLA-5 aren't hard to develop from existing rockets like the RLA-3 if there's clear demand or use for them. Think of the evolution of the Delta series.
 
Is there anything we would even bother building the RLA-5 for though, now that we have a functional 3? Would we not default to the 2*3 rocket plan for a manned moonshot, considering they're proven technology?
 
Is there anything we would even bother building the RLA-5 for though, now that we have a functional 3? Would we not default to the 2*3 rocket plan for a manned moonshot, considering they're proven technology?
The RLA-5 would be easier for things like moon shots really, with an RLA-3 you might need a few more launches to put a moon lander together. It's possible though, yes. But basically RLA-5 allows for some what more expedient manned missions in to deep space, uses beyond that are pretty limited.
 
I'm a little confused about what happened here, but it sounds like the Supreme Soviet has basically just let the actual farming enterprises just grow lol whatever they think is a good idea, more or less ending that aspect of central planning of agriculture.

Can someone explain what's going on here to me?
The Supreme Soviet effectively got used as a vehicle for the agricultural enterprises to claim as much power for themselves as they could in the chaos, blaming you for under performance and using your own program as an example of too little to late/advocating for decisive action.
 
The RLA-5 would be easier for things like moon shots really, with an RLA-3 you might need a few more launches to put a moon lander together. It's possible though, yes. But basically RLA-5 allows for some what more expedient manned missions in to deep space, uses beyond that are pretty limited.
The RLA-5 looks great for moonshots, or for some far-future scenario where we have a really large scale space presence and actually care about lofting fifty-ton modules into LEO.

But we're just not there. Frankly, I think it makes more sense to either wait until a rekindled burst of interest motivates us to try again for the moonshot, or until the natural progression of the program makes it sensible to design a better rocket anyway. A mid-1970s "son of RLA" rocket will be significantly superior in performance for a variety of reasons, to the point where it may make sense to fund work on it regardless just to get improved performance out of the RLA-1 and -3 versions... And we may be able to squeeze in funding for a heavier-lift variant then, for instance.

RLA-5 isn't like the Saturn V where once you abandon the idea of building them, you've basically given up on having them ever again. It's a fairly straightforward modification of hardware we're already manufacturing, and we could in theory return to it at any time if the political context gave the rocket a mission.
 
Also, Is/Would the Silverbird Performance Calculator a good reference?

Silverbird is pretty good for giving you ballpark numbers. Be aware that it over-values the impact of ISP and under-values the impact of thrust for getting off of Earth (so you can make a rocket with high ISP engines that wouldn't get off the ground in real life but that looks great in Silverbird) so some comparing to real rockets is required to reality-check Silverbird paper rockets.

The RLA-5 looks great for moonshots, or for some far-future scenario where we have a really large scale space presence and actually care about lofting fifty-ton modules into LEO.

It'd also be good for a Mars sample return mission.

Speaking of moon missions... The current Chinese moonbase program would be a good fit for the Soviet program at the moment.

They're planning on landing various robot experimental modules and telescopes in one area to build an infrastructure for later manned expeditions.

Could be an idea of what to do with the Luna program if the Americans succeed in landing and returning men from the moon with their rube goldberg Gemini lander.

__________

On the subject of the vote, I think we should consider Klimenko's personal politics. The guy has serious "old man complaining about the kids on his lawn" energy and he's currently relatively young. Him taking a conservative position is going to be the one that harnesses that energy best. Finding an ally to deal with the politics that Klimenko isn't suited for also seems most sensible.

Also, it sounds like finding an ally sounds like it synergizes well with taking a conservative position, since the latter option says "Whatever new conservative consolidates the factional position is going to be desperate and need a degree of backing, ensuring that wherever they move the ministry can project influence."

Working with Abramov is a non-starter IMO. He's been tarred with the brush of corruption and he tried to backstab Klimenko in a tight spot. He's tainted and proven untrustworthy.

Approaching Kosygin and taking a moderate position is a nice combo, but not for Klimenko IMO. Being Kosygin's annointed heir and taking over his faction would be a nice position for a more political minister.

Approaching Podgorny is potentially strong. Klimenko thinks an alliance with Podgorny would destabilize the Union more, which makes me leery, but also this could just be Klimenko's conservatism speaking. An alignment with Podgorny would probably pair best with a moderate position, since a more right-wing approach would be easier to compromise with Podgorny's even more right wing approach. I have mixed feelings about whether going with a right-wing approach would be a good idea though.

My feeling is that attacking the State Farms would be easier from the right, working with Podgorny to improve the autonomy of private and family farms against the new gentry that is the State Farm bureaucracy. But I worry about right-wing overshoot somehow, and the impact of supporting a right-wing deviation on Sino-Soviet relations.

Also, tacking to the right and working with Podgorny leaves the left open for Ashimov to grow stronger. I suspect that Klim's angry old man energy means that he is over-estimating the danger from Ashimov, but even so, if they don't get on, they don't get on, and Klim is probably going to be minister for the next 7 years. Probably don't want those next 7 years to be burdened by a large SupSov faction who will eventually respond to Klimenko's disdain with disdain of their own.

So for me, this is the political move to make:

[X] Plan Leftist Cooperation
-[X]Back a Conservative Position
-[X]Try to Find an Ally


With regards to the space program, my vote is for:

[X]Maintain It

I feel strongly that cancelling Venera is foolish at this point. The Americans are close to being able to attempt a moon landing, changing elements of our space program after a successful American landing is sure to be seen as a pathetic response. The Luna program is doing well currently, I don't want it being seen as a cheap knock-off of what the Americans are doing. The manned program is similarly at risk of being seen as responding to the American activities, and IMO would be best served to go slow and steady for now. The Mars program is maybe the one place we could use extra funds in a way that would be seen as impressive even when the Americans had landed men on the moon. However, what could we do with extra funds going to Mars? The most impressive realistic goal for the 70s would be to land a rover there. However, I feel we would be better served waiting for better electronics and better knowledge of Martian conditions before we try roving on the Martian surface.

By contrast, sticking to our guns and puting an orbiter over Venus is I feel better bang-for-buck. There's ALOT of interesting stuff going on with the Venusian atmosphere, and a Venus orbiter can leverage the work we've been doing for our aggressive weather-sat program to do some good science. A radar altimiter can also reveal the rocky surface of Venus, which again, is a pretty interesting place and there's a big scientific return. Remember that Venus is the planet in the Solar System most similar to Earth, which makes finding the differences in its atmosphere and surface very worth investigating.

Probing Venus is also a way to get the ministry more interested in the environmental consequences of the war against nature... Modelling the Venusian atmosphere was one of the things that got people to really think about what fossil fuel burning was doing to Earth.

Also, probing an alien atmosphere from orbit, rather than trying for a Martian rover, is a better foundation for the grand tour probes, which we'll need to start work on in a few years.

It is unfortunate that we've rolled poorly for Venus so far, and that our guys have given up on a lander for now, but IMO sticking to our guns is still the way to go. There's no guarantee that the Luna, Mariner or manned programs won't roll poorly next turn anyway.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
To note specifically on the US response their current ultra light lander rendezvous in orbit approach is well, horrifically unsafe. If it is pursued it can of course theoretically be accomplished. Its not cancelled in a full way, but their not pushing for new hardware/heavier stages so your people think their unlikely to risk a shot at the moon.
 
The fact they are declaring victory with a fly-by tells us what we need to know of their willingness to actually go down there. There is no martyr Kennedy, we have abandoned the effort, and their program is much less adequate to the task than OTL anyway. I find it very hard to believe that they are going to try with all this in mind.
 
To note specifically on the US response their current ultra light lander rendezvous in orbit approach is well, horrifically unsafe. If it is pursued it can of course theoretically be accomplished. Its not cancelled in a full way, but their not pushing for new hardware/heavier stages so your people think their unlikely to risk a shot at the moon.

I had been wondering if they'd stop the manned program now that they've gotten first orbit. They can make a credible claim to have exceeded our own Lunar efforts (just like we can claim a few hundred grams of Lunar dust has let us exceed theirs), so now might be a good stopping place for them. But given we have good practice with hardware that could give us a real stand-out Venus orbiter, I'd rather not take the risk.

And we're in 1968 and the US haven't even funded their RLA-5 equivalent? That's very interesting.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
It's wild to me how cursed/blursed space programs have been in this timeline. We nearly destroyed the USSR doing a dril budget meme, invented a 1980s rocket designed by a notorious madman in 1959, collapsed and cancelled everything less than a decade later, and now are creating the Weather Channel while the Americans are on the verge of killing all their astronauts because the Cold War got out of bed 20 years late and now they've decided they need the moonshot.

You think we can trick them into actually building SDI?
 
[X]Maintain It

Fasquardon has me convinced, even if the Americans aren't trying for a moon shot. A Venus orbiter is less impressive than a lander, but the scientific gains are significant and it's good prep work for the future planetary science missions of the '70s.

But I will gut as many programs as I have to to get us a Soviet Grand Tour probe of the outer planets.
 
[X] Plan Leftist Cooperation
-[X]Back a Conservative Position
-[X]Try to Find an Ally

[X]Maintain It

It's not like we have many other programs that could use the budget.
 
As long as we can run a probe program instead of it, it's fine if it stops or not. Either way you'd have something interesting to study, but admittedly we don't know if we actually can... Just a cancel with no clear view on what comes next does make it harder to say what's best.
 
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