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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition

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Pittauro said:
by the way, a little update from the Discord: we need roads so much that apparently we're not getting Autorail dice options, because even Voz realizes they're a bad idea.

Yes, guys. we reached the point of "we need roads so badly that Blackstar will ACTIVELY STOP US FROM BUILDING MORE RAILS".

FINALLY.

...I'm sure people will continue being crazy and if all railways disappeared they'll just pivot to all channels, of course.

All because of some obsession with roads being evil
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Kinda yes, kinda no. The limited HSR programs across the Caucasus and Ural areas will still be available, but broadly speaking no electrification of cargo rail until oil prices spike hard or the road situation isn't abysmal. Even paved arterials outside the West are not completed and have been mostly ignored because how roads have gone is you roll out something in the West, then attention stops then rinse and repeat. This has led to a lot of issues in the economy since a lot of things are driving on literal mud to get anywhere short. Also, the reason why most of your economic development has been in the West and things outside of that are deeply inefficient, especially for light goods.
 
Clearly, we must turn the entire Union into a single endlessly looping and spiralling railway track, completely filled with train-mounted cities and hydroponic farms. That'll remove the need for roads entirely.
 
Pittauro said:
by the way, a little update from the Discord: we need roads so much that apparently we're not getting Autorail dice options, because even Voz realizes they're a bad idea.

Yes, guys. we reached the point of "we need roads so badly that Blackstar will ACTIVELY STOP US FROM BUILDING MORE RAILS".

FINALLY.

...I'm sure people will continue being crazy and if all railways disappeared they'll just pivot to all channels, of course.

All because of some obsession with roads being evil
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People keep saying that we aren't building roads and how we should build more roads but i feel like that is just being dishonest and not in line with what is happening. Yes we need roads but it isn't like there has been a deliberate effort to sabotage roads and spend it frivolously on not needed infra. The two projects we could likely have scrapped where the massive Moscow (which gave us a lot of political clout so huge win there) and HSR the devil itself from everybody saying "build more roads".
But lets be honest with each other here Cry calculated that it would require about 5000 progress to make roads "ok" and HSR required only 2250 progress so while yes it would put a dent into it it wouldn't have solved roads and people keep not mentioning other projects they wanted to axe. If people really wanted more roads the true solution would have been to put 3 dice on housing and then we would be able to put 4480 progress on something else like roads which would be enough to make them ok.
I will admit i didn't want this i think proper housing for everybody is amazing but we are in the problem that there is required sacrifices and that is road because nobody argues to put more dice in it. We put 3 dice into roads last turn and if we keep at that pace it would take us 21 turns to reach 5000 progress or 10 years. That is likely to slow for people wanting to build roads the problem is nobody wanted to dispute the plan last turn nobody said they wanted more roads and wanted less sewage or some other infra project. So if people want roads make plans for them talk about them because saying "hurr durr build more roads" is not a solution we are a gigantic nation with limited resources trying to industrialize quickly we can't just magically summon infrastructure that will make us on par with the US.

TLDR we are a big country so there is an incredible amount of roads needed and if we want those roads then sacrifices must be made but nobody is arguing for wanting those sacrifices.
 
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Hianny said:
But lets be honest with each other here Cry calculated that it would require about 5000 progress to make roads "ok" and HSR required only 2250 progress so while yes it would put a dent into it it wouldn't have solved roads and people keep not mentioning other projects they wanted to axe.
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Well, it wouldn't have solved roads, but it certainly would've helped a lot. That plus five dice on housing instead of seven could've counted for a lot. Still, that's all spilled milk under the bridge, so instead of decrying past mistakes, we should focus on not repeating them and keep building lots of roads in the future.
 
Hianny said:
TLDR we are a big country so there is an incredible amount of roads needed and if we want those roads then sacrifices must be made but nobody is arguing for wanting those sacrifices.
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Isn't that kind of how underprioritization goes? Everyone knows X is important, but at the same time X is not exciting and arguments are instead made for other targets. X could be roads, but it could also be housing from earlier in the quest, which was part of how the housing crisis got worse and worse until auto-housing got voted on for 5YP's.
 
DeltaV11.2 said:
Isn't that kind of how underprioritization goes? Everyone knows X is important, but at the same time X is not exciting and arguments are instead made for other targets. X could be roads, but it could also be housing from earlier in the quest, which was part of how the housing crisis got worse and worse until auto-housing got voted on for 5YP's.
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Well we couldn't really build housing in the beginning of the quest because of Stalin but yes we underprioritized housing under Mal as we had so many other projects we wanted to do in infra.
 
Hianny said:
People keep saying that we aren't building roads and how we should build more roads but i feel like that is just being dishonest and not in line with what is happening. Yes we need roads but it isn't like there has been a deliberate effort to sabotage roads and spend it frivolously on not needed infra. The two projects we could likely have scrapped where the massive Moscow (which gave us a lot of political clout so huge win there) and HSR the devil itself from everybody saying "build more roads".
But lets be honest with each other here Cry calculated that it would require about 5000 progress to make roads "ok" and HSR required only 2250 progress so while yes it would put a dent into it it wouldn't have solved roads and people keep not mentioning other projects they wanted to axe. If people really wanted more roads the true solution would have been to put 3 dice on housing and then we would be able to put 4480 progress on something else like roads which would be enough to make them ok.
I will admit i didn't want this i think proper housing for everybody is amazing but we are in the problem that there is required sacrifices and that is road because nobody argues to put more dice in it. We put 3 dice into roads last turn and if we keep at that pace it would take us 21 turns to reach 5000 progress or 10 years. That is likely to slow for people wanting to build roads the problem is nobody wanted to dispute the plan last turn nobody said they wanted more roads and wanted less sewage or some other infra project. So if people want roads make plans for them talk about them because saying "hurr durr build more roads" is not a solution we are a gigantic nation with limited resources trying to industrialize quickly we can't just magically summon infrastructure that will make us on par with the US.

TLDR we are a big country so there is an incredible amount of roads needed and if we want those roads then sacrifices must be made but nobody is arguing for wanting those sacrifices.
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Um have seen multiple times people say that any road building is evil and that trains somehow fix all the issues...
 
Manowl said:
Um have seen multiple times people say that any road building is evil and that trains somehow fix all the issues...
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I haven't other than Random or others joking about it might have been before i joined then.

Ok i am willing to admit i am wrong sometimes so i went back and checked what Mal and Voz put infra dice in:
Mal
Metro 6
housing 36
rail 83 (15 dice being external)
road 18
electricity 33
dams 36
pipelines 11
water 13
telecom 5
airports 3

Voz
metro 7
housing 109
rail 18
roads 20 (300 progress integrated in Moscow)
electricity 8
dam 30
water 11
telecom(ASU) 7
renovations 20
airports 5
canal 3
From this i am very willing to admit i have been biased as i first joined when Voz got in charge so i have likely not seen as much road hate as there has been previously. This means that i likely missed all these talks about how we should focus on repairing rail, building rail in all of EE, and making sure every region has rail because looking in retrospective that is a lot of dice. With that said looking at the Voz era the split between roads and rail has been pretty equal so i personally don't think we have been deprioritizing this 7 year plan. There maybe should have been done more but looking at the dice there isn't much room to manoeuvre.
 
Hianny said:
With that said looking at the Voz era the split between roads and rail has been pretty equal so i personally don't think we have been deprioritizing this 7 year plan. There maybe should have been done more but looking at the dice there isn't much room to manoeuvre.
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it's not as bad as it could have been AND we've been getting better, it's just that... we really REALLY didn't need the HSR and road would have been far more beneficial to our economy.

and we HAVE repeatedly been told so, even
 
Pittauro said:
it's not as bad as it could have been AND we've been getting better, it's just that... we really REALLY didn't need the HSR and road would have been far more beneficial to our economy.

and we HAVE repeatedly been told so, even
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Yes roads might be better but i wouldn't say HSR is a bad investment while roads is better for the general economy of the region HSR is much better at helping poor people and integrating the surrounding urban areas with the big boys Moscow and Leningrad. This aspect is going to be even more important now when we want to transition into services which means all the jobs centering around Moscow and Leningrad open up which will allow the wealth to flow out to cities with less priority in the planning system.
 
Hianny said:
Yes roads might be better but i wouldn't say HSR is a bad investment while roads is better for the general economy of the region HSR is much better at helping poor people and integrating the surrounding urban areas with the big boys Moscow and Leningrad. This aspect is going to be even more important now when we want to transition into services which means all the jobs centering around Moscow and Leningrad open up which will allow the wealth to flow out to cities with less priority in the planning system.
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I feel like this is wrong, but I'm not quite sure how to explain why.

especially the "helping poor people" part.
 
Why would better public transport helping poor people be wrong that is like the entire foundation for collective transport. Most people can't afford a car and if that is required to do something specific like going to work in Moscow everyday then only the richest from a community can do that job. This is also why the US murdering public transport is so bad because it means that a car is required to participate in society and everybody poor is going to be settle with piles of debt and a vehicle that doesn't work.
 
Hianny said:
Why would better public transport helping poor people be wrong that is like the entire foundation for collective transport. Most people can't afford a car and if that is required to do something specific like going to work in Moscow everyday then only the richest from a community can do that job. This is also why the US murdering public transport is so bad because it means that a car is required to participate in society and everybody poor is going to be settle with piles of debt and a vehicle that doesn't work.
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At present, the most impoverished groups in the Soviet Union do not live in the area that HSR will visit. If the HSR has connection, then that means that you are in a place with at least moderate economic value.

The road networks we're talking about are entirely different kind of networks. We're not chosing between connecting the local suburb with a school via 4 lane stroad or sensible tram. It's the difference between an intercity connection between 2 prosperous cities, or a collection of roads to a whole array of towns in the middle of nowhere.

And sure, none of those people in town might be able to afford a car, but the town store is getting it's supply by truck, and when that truck disappears into a mudhole, the prices go up.

Edit : Though our current road projects are not yet getting to nowhere, they are connecting the towns and cities from which the road to the middle of nowhere departs.
 
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Also the roads are playing a role in our ag sector struggling to make a profit. The roads mud up and stop truck traffic frequently enough that a lot of farmers can't get their more perishable produce sold in time.
 
At the end of the day, despite all the problems with roads and cars, they serve a purpose, and a purpose that rail cannot make up for. Like any other addictive drug, they have to be used with caution, but a failure to use them at all can have its own consequences.

In this essay, I will depict the Izhevsk Automotive Plant as being like a very large brick of uncut cocaine-
 
10ebbor10 said:
At present, the most impoverished groups in the Soviet Union do not live in the area that HSR will visit. If the HSR has connection, then that means that you are in a place with at least moderate economic value.

The road networks we're talking about are entirely different kind of networks. We're not chosing between connecting the local suburb with a school via 4 lane stroad or sensible tram. It's the difference between an intercity connection between 2 prosperous cities, or a collection of roads to a whole array of towns in the middle of nowhere.

And sure, none of those people in town might be able to afford a car, but the town store is getting it's supply by truck, and when that truck disappears into a mudhole, the prices go up.

Edit : Though our current road projects are not yet getting to nowhere, they are connecting the towns and cities from which the road to the middle of nowhere departs.
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Yes i know this which is why i started the argument by saying
Hianny said:
Yes roads might be better but i wouldn't say HSR is a bad investment while roads is better for the general economy of the region HSR is much better at helping poor people and integrating the surrounding urban areas with the big boys Moscow and Leningrad
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I don't know why i am stuck on this side of the argument my point has never been roads = bad it has always been HSR serves a purpose and helps many people in the region and isn't just a massive waste of resources. The same will happen when we have to expand our infra down to the caucasus roads will be better for the general economy but HSR will help it integrate much better than roads will. My point as it still stands is these are different things and serve different purposes.
 
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