HanEmpire
Delicious
We're further to the left than Deng though. He opened the floodgate for capitalists in ways we've never done.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan MNKh Edition
- Thread starter Blackstar
- Start date
- Alt. History Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Philippines
Im still excited for Atommash. Heres hoping it continues to succeed now that we have more income.
In favor of doing freedom of navigation exercises, as the send a force option has been called, to remind people that there are international laws that the French are violating.
Broadly in favor of doing another Commission because making sure that the Minimal Environmental Protection Agency isn't compromised from minute one is essential.
Broadly in favor of doing another Commission because making sure that the Minimal Environmental Protection Agency isn't compromised from minute one is essential.
Man is the USA going to regress their civil rights movement I thought the republicans actually supported anti segregationist if they do segregation that would hurt them so bad they would be seen as literal white supremacy and make the democrats seen as the ones who actually care about progress
I think some people are being way to optimistic on the Algeria situation.
For one despite Algeria effectively being a colony, it is legally and some what emotionally a core territory of France in this era. It's not an official colonial holding as such, but considered a part of France proper. This is why in the original time line the fight over it was particularly brutal and the 4th French Republic fell over it, to be replaced by the 5th led by a ww2 general.
Secondly, all one needs to win is to covertly keep moving weapons to Algeria and other colonial areas. As the main long term issue that is making these places unsustainable is that their population growth versus France is far higher. So the once very large power imbalance is becoming ever less so. France in time will lose its grip, especially if they get some level of armaments over time as well. As such the USSR already has a victory, that's pretty much guaranteed. After all in the end what people will remember is who was the final winner, did the colonies come free in the end or not? Particular stand offs have little long term prestige effects and thus are more a question of are they a risk worth taking.
As such these responses as such are more a form of how one achieves ones victory, or alternately, how one might still clutch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Based on the above points, what you're currently looking at has probably more similarities with the Cuba crisis then one might really like. For instance freedom of shipping through international waters is indeed a right, but this didn't stop the USA from blockading Cuba. And we know now from the declassified materials from the USSR and USA that if that blockade had been run escalation to full scale nuclear war was very much present. At the very least the USA would definitely have shot at any ship trying to force it. And this was due to a perceived threat to their core territory, the USA proper as such. The same thing as France has right now, rightly or wrongly they probably very much perceive this as an attack on France proper. If you'd done it at one of the other colonies it would be a different matter, but Algeria is thus due to this an exception.
So arming Libya has a very real risk of French intervention and a shooting war and I really don't think you should underestimate the potential of French willingness to blockade fleets shipping weapons that are going to be used to attack France proper.
This is definitely nuclear brinkmanship on a nation that is feeling increasingly surrounded on all sides by a hostile power, which now seems intent on taking actual French core territories now. Put the fleet there and they could also interpret it as the end is nigh. That once their encirclement is near complete European France will be next.
Personally I don't think this is worth it really as such, the loss if it did go nuclear would be extreme, the USSR might well collapse, communism may well end. On the other side is colony that if you support it a bit more surreptitiously is ultimately still going to win, just like it did in OTL. So I'm not seeing any kind of long term value from direct confrontation. If it affected the USSR directly it would be a different matter, but trying to push a country on a core territory issue seems highly problematic to me. Even if you some how one it, the global repercussions would not be good, lots of countries would fully align against the USSR for the perceived risk of direct attacks on their countries.
If one has to risk risk nuclear brinkmanship, better on something else that is less core to one of the countries involved. That way you'd have more options for deescalation still.
For one despite Algeria effectively being a colony, it is legally and some what emotionally a core territory of France in this era. It's not an official colonial holding as such, but considered a part of France proper. This is why in the original time line the fight over it was particularly brutal and the 4th French Republic fell over it, to be replaced by the 5th led by a ww2 general.
Secondly, all one needs to win is to covertly keep moving weapons to Algeria and other colonial areas. As the main long term issue that is making these places unsustainable is that their population growth versus France is far higher. So the once very large power imbalance is becoming ever less so. France in time will lose its grip, especially if they get some level of armaments over time as well. As such the USSR already has a victory, that's pretty much guaranteed. After all in the end what people will remember is who was the final winner, did the colonies come free in the end or not? Particular stand offs have little long term prestige effects and thus are more a question of are they a risk worth taking.
As such these responses as such are more a form of how one achieves ones victory, or alternately, how one might still clutch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Based on the above points, what you're currently looking at has probably more similarities with the Cuba crisis then one might really like. For instance freedom of shipping through international waters is indeed a right, but this didn't stop the USA from blockading Cuba. And we know now from the declassified materials from the USSR and USA that if that blockade had been run escalation to full scale nuclear war was very much present. At the very least the USA would definitely have shot at any ship trying to force it. And this was due to a perceived threat to their core territory, the USA proper as such. The same thing as France has right now, rightly or wrongly they probably very much perceive this as an attack on France proper. If you'd done it at one of the other colonies it would be a different matter, but Algeria is thus due to this an exception.
So arming Libya has a very real risk of French intervention and a shooting war and I really don't think you should underestimate the potential of French willingness to blockade fleets shipping weapons that are going to be used to attack France proper.
This is definitely nuclear brinkmanship on a nation that is feeling increasingly surrounded on all sides by a hostile power, which now seems intent on taking actual French core territories now. Put the fleet there and they could also interpret it as the end is nigh. That once their encirclement is near complete European France will be next.
Personally I don't think this is worth it really as such, the loss if it did go nuclear would be extreme, the USSR might well collapse, communism may well end. On the other side is colony that if you support it a bit more surreptitiously is ultimately still going to win, just like it did in OTL. So I'm not seeing any kind of long term value from direct confrontation. If it affected the USSR directly it would be a different matter, but trying to push a country on a core territory issue seems highly problematic to me. Even if you some how one it, the global repercussions would not be good, lots of countries would fully align against the USSR for the perceived risk of direct attacks on their countries.
If one has to risk risk nuclear brinkmanship, better on something else that is less core to one of the countries involved. That way you'd have more options for deescalation still.
Takareer
Words and feathers
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
As always, excellent chapter. So much detail in every area, it really feels like a complete world we get to interact with.
Regarding the arms shipments: a slimy move would be to send a very suspicious-looking ship filled with legitimate goods and maybe humanitarian supplies, along with a film crew. Film the French getting aggressive with our ship, film the crew cracking open the legitimate supplies (to demonstrate to the viewers that they have no weapons). Cause a big stink internationally, and say "this is why Soviet shipments in the area will now have armed escort."
Regarding the arms shipments: a slimy move would be to send a very suspicious-looking ship filled with legitimate goods and maybe humanitarian supplies, along with a film crew. Film the French getting aggressive with our ship, film the crew cracking open the legitimate supplies (to demonstrate to the viewers that they have no weapons). Cause a big stink internationally, and say "this is why Soviet shipments in the area will now have armed escort."
I also wanted to point out that, while seeming definitely normal and reasonable, the US (and Canada) don't have a national ID card even today! We are on the right path with these sorts of bureaucratic steps.
Takareer
Words and feathers
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
Assuming you were replying to my suggestion, if they did this it would definitely give us great international reason to have an armed escort while tarring France.
Not that we need an excuse for the escort, of course, but it helps.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
[X]Send a Force
[X]Allow Libyian Self-Defense
On the one hand, Gaddafi is a socialist hero who should be given everything he needs! On the other hand, a chance to dunk on the French navy.
[X]Reform another Commission
Send in the student cadres!
[X]Allow Libyian Self-Defense
On the one hand, Gaddafi is a socialist hero who should be given everything he needs! On the other hand, a chance to dunk on the French navy.
[X]Reform another Commission
Send in the student cadres!
Well it is interesting how like in the Cuba crisis there are plenty who are willing to risk everything for what are really relatively marginal gains.
- Location
- A haze of forgetfulness
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Nuclear war is an impossibility, it's not a realistic scenario. Nobody is going to launch nukes because of some shit hole slap fight in the desert.
[X]Send a Force
[X]Send a Force
HanEmpire
Delicious
It's the Soviet Red Navy ramming aside a bunch of French frigates. It absolutely could lead to a shooting war.
That said we need to do it, because we can't let the West think they can force us to back down willy nilly like a bitch.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
[X]Avoid Escalation
[X]Reform another Commission
[X]Reform another Commission
Last edited:
- Location
- Lost in the internet
[X]Send a Force
[X]Throw the Matter to the Supreme Soviet
We are not arming Gaddafi
[X]Throw the Matter to the Supreme Soviet
We are not arming Gaddafi
Ahh, but to France that is not just a shit hole. They incorporated it in to France proper a century and a half ago. And even the shittest part of your proper country will still have a large chance to draw a very hostile reaction from a country.
One can certainly accuse them of double standards in how they treat the locals despite that, but don't think they won't fight bitterly over it.
- Location
- UTC+0
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They
[X]Send a Force
I want to see our Navy do its job for once, what use is it for if we can't even protect our trade routes? The chance of the French taking an L makes it even more enticing.
[X]Throw the Matter to the Supreme Soviet
Let the SupSov take care of it, I am sure there's some politician willing to take up the cause of "don't dump wastewater where we get our drinking water". If its a wash we can blame them when it bites us in the ass.
I want to see our Navy do its job for once, what use is it for if we can't even protect our trade routes? The chance of the French taking an L makes it even more enticing.
[X]Throw the Matter to the Supreme Soviet
Let the SupSov take care of it, I am sure there's some politician willing to take up the cause of "don't dump wastewater where we get our drinking water". If its a wash we can blame them when it bites us in the ass.
Sure you can, the USA enforced such a blockage during the Cold War on Cuba and forced Soviet shipping back. The long term consequences weren't much really.