Are you using DF cosmology? Because according to Bob the Skull, alternate universes do exist and are accessible through the never never.

Also recall that the DF definition of human is quite narrow. The whites don't count, for example, and neither do fomor servitors. It is extremely likely that the Council wouldn't try to apply the laws. They might still try to kill Viserys, but not for that.
 
Are you using DF cosmology? Because according to Bob the Skull, alternate universes do exist and are accessible through the never never.

Also recall that the DF definition of human is quite narrow. The whites don't count, for example, and neither do fomor servitors. It is extremely likely that the Council wouldn't try to apply the laws. They might still try to kill Viserys, but not for that.

It is quite likely the Council finds itself judged by Viserys, should be interesting considering how infrequently they actually explain or justify anything and it won't be long before he hears about some poor "Warlock".

If Viserys manages to get an in with the low-level practitioner rumourmill then he will have a lot to be angry about.
 
Not sure we should make everything 100% compatible with the Nevernever, feels like a copt out when making such crossovers.

Having the locals believe it's from nevernever is one thing, but all but confirming it by the author feels cheap in my opinion.
 
Not sure we should make everything 100% compatible with the Nevernever, feels like a copt out when making such crossovers.

Having the locals believe it's from nevernever is one thing, but all but confirming it by the author feels cheap in my opinion.

The Nevernever is incredibly plastic and reactionary, I think Bob's stance could be correct in that the Nevernever absorbs reality connections once they exist as that is part of it's narrative, as in the Nevernever isn't connected to all worlds, it's just connected to all worlds it's connected to.
 
The Nevernever reflects what's already there, yeah. If it's not ordinarily "there", it isn't reflected by it.

I dunno... I guess I agree with @ryuan in that it feels like a bit of a copout. There's more narrative weight when a problem can't be solved by going 2 + 2 in the local system's rules when your system's rules don't seem to add up.
 
It wasn't there but now it is, and once it has been the reflection will be. Fae.

Doesn't mean it will be at all easy to find the path, doesn't even mean that the Nevernever path is the path of least resistance/greatest convenience to get back home, it just exists.

There are plenty of paths between mortal cities and they have their pros and cons, hurdles, speeds and distances.
Some have personal paths where they have negotiated free passage through certain territories etc. a shortcut for one man is an endless journey for another.

This is all from memory though and I couldn't even remember who attacked Dresden in Mac's pub.
 
He may be a bit more polite, but yes, that is what will end up being said on the matter. He'd still lose at this point against the entire WC, but as DP suggested, negotiations are going to be...um...tense.
He's killing monsters, why would the White Council come after him, if he was still human sure it would be different, but his magic don't look like Wizarding magic, and he's clearly not human to the sight, so he's not bound by the laws of magic.

Magic granted by non-humans aren't bound by the laws of Magic, much less magic used by non-humans, Viserys is quite clearly a dragon, so he's not bound by the laws of Magic, which mean the Council should just be happy he's killing monsters.

The laws of Magic are specifically there, because Wizarding magic corrupts if used wrong, in terms of D&D magic, all spells that kill mortals, automatically have the evil modifier added, and this is only the case for mortal magic, if a god grant you power, then that power isn't bound by the Laws of Magic, if you are half Fey and have some tricks from that, those tricks aren't bound by the Laws, so D&D magic wouldn't be bound by the Law either.

If Lya had been with Viserys and begun taking students, there would probably have been a great deal of unsureness, but once it was determined, whether her magic type caused the problems of Dresden Wizarding magic, that would be when they decided whether it was under the Laws of Magic or not, Lya's type of Magic is rather clearly distinct from Dresden Wizarding magic after all, you don't need to be born with it, you just need to study it enough, and you have to prepare your spells, instead of spontaneously casting them, so there should be enough evidence of it not being Wizarding Magic, that they would give her the benefit of the doubt, and investigate before trying to kill her.
 
I mostly know about Dresden Files from fanfics and snippets so I'm totally out of depth with the latest discussion, but has anyone here read A Song of Ice and Fires That Weren't All My fault?

Dresden becomes the Wizard of Braavos and burns a lot of stuff.

In there, Dresden Soulgazes with a Heart Tree causing panic with the Old Gods since they mistake him for an Other, Mab's Knight and all.

Also he wakes Braavos' Titan to fight against Viserys if he invades with dragons... Now what if a totally different Viserys drops by :V?
 
I mostly know about Dresden Files from fanfics and snippets so I'm totally out of depth with the latest discussion, but has anyone here read A Song of Ice and Fires That Weren't All My fault?

Dresden becomes the Wizard of Braavos and burns a lot of stuff.

In there, Dresden Soulgazes with a Heart Tree causing panic with the Old Gods since they mistake him for an Other, Mab's Knight and all.

Also he wakes Braavos' Titan to fight against Viserys if he invades with dragons... Now what if a totally different Viserys drops by :V?
Not really to fight Viserys, Dresden likes Viserys to a degree, what with the fact that he saved Viserys from Roberts assassins, so he trust Viserys enough not to attack Braavos, but Viserys isn't the only one with dragons in that story.
 
Eh. I don't see why the white council would try to make Viserys follow the seven laws, they are meant for humans. And, if the white court vampires are not considered humans, than I don't see why Viserys would be considered one either.

The only one that will likely to get him in trouble if he breaks it is the 7th law. No one sane likes outsiders.
 
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Not really to fight Viserys, Dresden likes Viserys to a degree, what with the fact that he saved Viserys from Roberts assassins, so he trust Viserys enough not to attack Braavos, but Viserys isn't the only one with dragons in that story.

Context :V

I still love that part where he pwned Quaithe. I was really annoyed by her cryptic bullishit in canon.
 
I mostly know about Dresden Files from fanfics and snippets so I'm totally out of depth with the latest discussion, but has anyone here read A Song of Ice and Fires That Weren't All My fault?

Dresden becomes the Wizard of Braavos and burns a lot of stuff.

In there, Dresden Soulgazes with a Heart Tree causing panic with the Old Gods since they mistake him for an Other, Mab's Knight and all.

Also he wakes Braavos' Titan to fight against Viserys if he invades with dragons... Now what if a totally different Viserys drops by :V?
I mourn its passing every day.
There was even a brief revival some time ago, but it quickly went to sleep again.
Hopefully once Puzzle finished whatever it is he is doing, he will consider returning to it.

That fic and "Hear me roar" are some of the best ASOIAf crossovers out there, i hope to see them finished one day.
 
Hopefully once Puzzle finished whatever it is he is doing, he will consider returning to it.
What he's doing is a Star Wars fic, pretty decent.

I'm really glad @Snowfire took the initial idea for Horde Thief and ran with it. Now I get to see where things go without having to do the actual writing :D.
I also love reading all the discussion it's prompted, just seeing the thread's take on stuff is super interesting.

Edit: don't mind me :whistle:
[X] Duesal
 
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If Lya had been with Viserys and begun taking students, there would probably have been a great deal of unsureness, but once it was determined, whether her magic type caused the problems of Dresden Wizarding magic, that would be when they decided whether it was under the Laws of Magic or not, Lya's type of Magic is rather clearly distinct from Dresden Wizarding magic after all, you don't need to be born with it, you just need to study it enough, and you have to prepare your spells, instead of spontaneously casting them, so there should be enough evidence of it not being Wizarding Magic, that they would give her the benefit of the doubt, and investigate before trying to kill her.

Viserys might be obviously non-human enough but I really can't see the Council being reasonable or investigative in this circumstance.
 
Viserys might be obviously non-human enough but I really can't see the Council being reasonable or investigative in this circumstance.
Why not, it's not like non-Wizard magic is anything new, gods grant their priests power, non-human ancestry manifest as powers, and other such things happen, the White Council administrate Wizarding magic, weak or strong don't matter, but whether it's Wizarding magic do, the first meeting might be a battle if they think it's Wizarding magic, but as soon as it's been discovered it's not, the White Council will be open to negotiations.

Non-human ancestry people can look perfectly human, yet the White Council don't pursue them for using their ancestral powers, in ways forbidden by the Laws of magic.
 
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@TotallyNotEvil, there was some disconcern voiced when I brought up sharing Xor's book with them.
And while not intrinsically as valuable for understanding other humans and giving them other forays into PoB as his manual... Quantity has a quality if its own.

Please rephrase this bit, or add something along the lines of "carefully measure information given to them, best not obviously, to not give away anything on the same topic as one covered by Xor's work".
Propose a great cultural exchange, exchange books on histories and costumes of your respective planes
also, costumes, heh.
 
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I wonder... what if Viserys tried to summon Yrael or Mereth?

One of either fizzling or Bad Things Happen. The first thing Viserys did was try to Bloodwish a Plane Shift, and depending on if a level 18 Viserys would have taken the spell, he may have gone for a full bore Transport Travellers Wish. Neither will have worked, and the latter would be a reason for Mab noticing him. As to where his multiverse is, well that's somewhat obvious. According to Mab, and she was being truthful in this, he bears energy from beyond the Gates. Some of that is his magic, the rest is a sort of fading signature of somone who was blasted across realities.

Further, I would suggest that people don't assume conservation of capabilities where it comes to Viserys' magic in the Dresdenverse. In general, yes, much of what he can do will be powerful and OCP inducing on some levels to a merely 'human' wizard. Equally though, there are DF things that will surprise him.

As to magic and culture shock, the largest problem he has is actually one of not understanding the universe's metaphysics, and they hold primacy in this case. Although Viserys has high stats and massive knowledge skills, he's running under equally huge penalties right now because the entire world around him is 'wrong'. Cultural Adaptation is unlikely to fill that gap and is also only a temporary measure - it's limited duration, after all. There's also the question of which culture.

On the matter of the Laws of Magic, people are quite correct that they only apply to mortals and Viserys is a Dragon. The problem here comes in proving that. He's using his human form and is continuously under a Mind Blank effect, that has connotations. I'm still not quite sure how Mab knows that he is a dragon, actually; probably Fae bullshit of some sort though.

The far more likely conflict point is how Viserys will react to how the Laws of Magic function and are applied retroactively and regardless of ignorance, especially when the Doom of Damocles does work. It's just that murder is 'easier'. There isn't much nuance there, and it's one of the few easily discoverable things that could set Viserys off on a cold rage. He'd be polite, no doubt, but once he gets the truth of the matter out of people it's not going to be pleasant. Powerful beings have a way of bending reality through their presence in the Dresdenverse, sympathetic connections to the Nevernever caused by their nature and etc. Viserys is, whilst not on the level of the Queens, certainly powerful enough to cause this. The results of that are going to be fun.

Edit: also he's broken three(ish) Laws since arriving, and that's what matters. I'm not counting everything that came before he was reality whacked.
 
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One of either fizzling or Bad Things Happen. The first thing Viserys did was try to Bloodwish a Plane Shift, and depending on if a level 18 Viserys would have taken the spell, he may have gone for a full bore Transport Travellers Wish. Neither will have worked, and the latter would be a reason for Mab noticing him. As to where his multiverse is, well that's somewhat obvious. According to Mab, and she was being truthful in this, he bears energy from beyond the Gates. Some of that is his magic, the rest is a sort of fading signature of somone who was blasted across realities.

Further, I would suggest that people don't assume conservation of capabilities where it comes to Viserys' magic in the Dresdenverse. In general, yes, much of what he can do will be powerful and OCP inducing on some levels to a merely 'human' wizard. Equally though, there are DF things that will surprise him.

As to magic and culture shock, the largest problem he has is actually one of not understanding the universe's metaphysics, and they hold primacy in this case. Although Viserys has high stats and massive knowledge skills, he's running under equally huge penalties right now because the entire world around him is 'wrong'. Cultural Adaptation is unlikely to fill that gap and is also only a temporary measure - it's limited duration, after all. There's also the question of which culture.

On the matter of the Laws of Magic, people are quite correct that they only apply to mortals and Viserys is a Dragon. The problem here comes in proving that. He's using his human form and is continuously under a Mind Blank effect, that has connotations. I'm still not quite sure how Mab knows that he is a dragon, actually; probably Fae bullshit of some sort though.

The far more likely conflict point is how Viserys will react to how the Laws of Magic function and are applied retroactively and regardless of ignorance, especially when the Doom of Damocles does work. It's just that murder is 'easier'. There isn't much nuance there, and it's one of the few easily discoverable things that could set Viserys off on a cold rage. He'd be polite, no doubt, but once he gets the truth of the matter out of people it's not going to be pleasant. Powerful beings have a way of bending reality through their presence in the Dresdenverse, sympathetic connections to the Nevernever caused by their nature and etc. Viserys is, whilst not on the level of the Queens, certainly powerful enough to cause this. The results of that are going to be fun.

Edit: also he's broken three(ish) Laws since arriving, and that's what matters. I'm not counting everything that came before he was reality whacked.
If Viserys is level 18, he'll have Miracle as a 9th level spell. That would allow him to cast Greater Planar Ally.
 
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If Viserys is level 18, he'll have Miracle as a 8th level spell. That would allow him to cast Greater Planar Ally.

Um...what? How is he getting one of the most powerful 9th level spells in the game a spell level early?

To summon Mereth or Yrael or anything else that he knows, Visyers would have to reach past the Gates. If he did this standing at the Gates to the Outside, it might work. Might. Otherwise? The spell fizzles or accidentally summons an Outsider.
 
Um...what? How is he getting one of the most powerful 9th level spells in the game a spell level early?

To summon Mereth or Yrael or anything else that he knows, Visyers would have to reach past the Gates. If he did this standing at the Gates to the Outside, it might work. Might. Otherwise? The spell fizzles or accidentally summons an Outsider.
Level 18 is when Sorcerers gain access to 9th level spells. If he was a Wizard, it would have been at 17th level. He will also have Dominate Monster, as the final spell gained from Greater Draconic Bloodline.

I'm not saying Greater Planar Ally would work, just that Viserys should be able to use Miracle to make the attempt.
 
With the Conference coming to a close soon, we have a brief lull in the action while Viserys teaches Lya some spells before moving on to the "Sins of the Past" action. We're finally getting rid of the WIldfire in King's Landing!

It's primarily going to be Viserys and Malarys running the show, with help from an Archon from Mantarys, but we should be able to call on any of the Companions who are in SD to buff the Archon before it seeks out the Scryed Wildfire.

I think that in addition to having the Archon present a couple days ahead of time so that it can be included in Dany's Persistomancy, it should benefit from Dany's Mind Blank SLA from the Telepath template, Protection from Energy(Fire), Energy Immunity(Fire), Resist Energy(Fire), and Find the Path, along with our standard array of buffs.

For non-standard buffs, I'm thinking Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Grand Destiny, Life Bubble, Wind Walk (for the ability to use Gaseous Form), and Inner Beauty.

Anything I'm missing?
 
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