Fixed for you.

"It was just an accident!" is a pretty lacklustre defence when you managed to bring forth a CR10+ fiend.

If he was not actively complict in the creation of the entity, and from what DP has said, he wasn't, then it should be a clean execution and nothing more. If he tried to control or use the creature, then fertiliser it is.
 
na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na Old Gods!~
Granted, he will be the most pathetic sacrifice ever, but we will literally wring every bit of use out of his hide.
Is accidental demon summoning a (tree food) crime?

What if they really really deserve it.
In my book, yes. There was always a very thin line for slavers, and the only thing saving them from the Larder was that they were guilty of mortal crimes only, not of inviting enemies of humanity through the door.

But if you're such a horrible person that you spontaneously create such circumstances that those enemies to humanity are drawn to you like you're a beacon, then congrats. You are now sacrifice fodder.
 
But if you're such a horrible person that you spontaneously create such circumstances that those enemies to humanity are drawn to you like you're a beacon, then congrats. You are now sacrifice fodder.
To be fair, the artists on that street-party in Braavos that allowed Garantos and Lileath in our world were likely not bad people.
Just because your actions have unpredictable supernatural consequences does not mean that they should be judged harsher than the same deeds without these consequences.
 
Relath bent the knee, Zherys bent the knee, Yrael will bend the knee.
I suspect It will be even easier than the previous two, we only need to convince him that he will achieve greater good through us than on his own.
Law means order, the empire is law.
 
That isn't the case; you're putting words in the mouth's of his supporters here, and in a bad way. The point being made is that, by the good we are doing through conquest, it makes attempting to dislodge us far worse for all involved. The destruction of our polity, and it would have to be nothing less than that, would send all of Essos into a tailspin. It would accelerate the growth of his enemies and actively sabotage the spread of benevolent order that Archons champion.

It isn't that anyone is rejecting that he's considered killing us - as far as I can tell. It's that killing us would do far more harm than good. So long as we continue to expand in the same way as we're doing so: breaking slavery, establishing education, and all the other marks of civilisation that we're bringing with us, then the balance of probability will remain in our favour.

The idea that he'd think he could just replace us and not have the entire Imperium fall apart is farcical. Yes, he's thought about it, but a major part of his calculation will be the good of the people we rule, instead of his own benefit. You seem to be confusing some of his motivations with those of Zherys, and that's really going to throw your math off.
No, I'm merely considering that he is ultimately just a NCO in the legions of Celestia. His higher ups have far more power then him, could conceivably replace us by sending a angelic host for the task and with us not knowing the state of the upper planes, we have no reason to assume that they wouldn't be tempted to rule a large mortal empire by proxy to bolster their numbers against the lower planes.

These people are still fighting an eternal war and to our best knowledge, they are loosing pretty badly. Waiting for us to consolidate Planetos for them before taking over to spread their brand of true Good is entirely in the cards.

By comparing my argument with Zherys, you are proving my point. You are unwilling to accept the idea that someone with LG alignment would be willing to act against us for a Greater Good.
 
That in turn makes me wonder why Slaver's Bay hasn't collapsed into a black hole of stupid and evil spreading to devour our entire plane yet.
Whose to say it hasn't? When is the last rumor post we got from the area? Slaver's Bay could be a post-apocalyptic ruin right now.
If he was not actively complict in the creation of the entity, and from what DP has said, he wasn't, then it should be a clean execution and nothing more. If he tried to control or use the creature, then fertiliser it is.
If you treat your slaves so badly that reality births a being of misery and despair as a result, you don't deserve a clean execution. At that point you earn slow death by carnivorous slugs.
Is accidental demon summoning a (tree food) crime?

What if they really really deserve it.
Maybe not if you perform a ritual meant to make your dick bigger, or your fields more productive, and as a result accidentally summon a Demon, but in this case? Yes.
 
Last edited:
To be fair, the artists on that street-party in Braavos that allowed Garantos and Lileath in our world were likely not bad people.
Just because your actions have unpredictable supernatural consequences does not mean that they should be judged harsher than the same deeds without these consequences.
Allowing Good outsiders in isn't punishable by anything.

Being such a cunt that you let Evil outsiders in as a side effect should be punishable to the maximum extent.
 
As I said, I agree with your logic. But you are arguing more in favor of getting rid of the problem that is Yrael rather than profiting from him. That to get rid of the problem you plan to recruit him slips by the whole discourse.

That's where people can misunderstand you.

Anyway, I said what I had to say. I dearly hope that we can profit from outsiders from all alignments. If we managed with Azema we can manage with everyone.
I assume it's because people feel more comfortable with "mitigate the outsider through shoving their terribleness at acceptable targets" instead of "mitigate the outsider through shoving their acts of kindness and charity at socially acceptable targets?"

It also easier to manipulate evil outsiders as you only have to appeal to their selfish self interest, while with good outsiders you have to show that your actions are having a benefit to people, thus bringing the need to justify blood sacrifice and abyssal collusion (which some in the thread get irritated by).

Of course Yrael doesn't fully trust Viserys, because he's not an idiot. He will support us (or at least not interfere with us) so long as we show ourselves to be bringing people some sort of benefit.

Even if a LG utopia spontaneously comes from the ether, the Archons would likely just shift to support them while working against the many other worse places that exist in Planetos instead of trying to depose Viserys.
 
Whose to say it hasn't? When is the last rumor post we got from the area? Slaver's Bay could be a post-apocalyptic ruin right now.
I think last year they send a small army at Tolos or Mantarys.

But aside from what we have heard, it's much more important what we haven't heard.
Total collapse of the big slaver cities woulld be worth a note.
And a drop in our piracy-income.
 
How is it in our world? "Ignorance does not protect one from punishment"
The 'sorry, I didn't know that I could accidentally summon a daemon by that behavior' doesn't cut it.
 
No, I'm merely considering that he is ultimately just a NCO in the legions of Celestia. His higher ups have far more power then him, could conceivably replace us by sending a angelic host for the task and with us not knowing the state of the upper planes, we have no reason to assume that they wouldn't be tempted to rule a large mortal empire by proxy to bolster their numbers against the lower planes.

These people are still fighting an eternal war and to our best knowledge, they are loosing pretty badly. Waiting for us to consolidate Planetos for them before taking over to spread their brand of true Good is entirely in the cards.

By comparing my argument with Zherys, you are proving my point. You are unwilling to accept the idea that someone with LG alignment would be willing to act against us for a Greater Good.

Ok, let me break this down real simple because you're arguing against yourself here.

  • Probably loosing their war against...um...who exactly?
  • Able to deploy an Angelic host to conquer an entire Plane.
Pick one. You don't get to have both.
 
No, I'm merely considering that he is ultimately just a NCO in the legions of Celestia. His higher ups have far more power then him, could conceivably replace us by sending a angelic host for the task and with us not knowing the state of the upper planes, we have no reason to assume that they wouldn't be tempted to rule a large mortal empire by proxy to bolster their numbers against the lower planes.

These people are still fighting an eternal war and to our best knowledge, they are loosing pretty badly. Waiting for us to consolidate Planetos for them before taking over to spread their brand of true Good is entirely in the cards.

By comparing my argument with Zherys, you are proving my point. You are unwilling to accept the idea that someone with LG alignment would be willing to act against us for a Greater Good.
They would resist temptation, thats their whole schtick.
We can sell them the same thing we weld Zherys, you get everything you want through us.
Help our institutions, help the people, instruct our knights, that will get you your army.
 
Lileath was a Succubus.
She was let in as a side effect.
Oh, if we're arguing about the nature of the Evil Outsider playing part in the punishment, I have the perfect response:
You are getting a prisoner. You see he did not actually do in on purpose, he was just so awful to his slaves that a monster of despair and misfortune spontaneously generated.
Even if we're extra discerning in who we punish for spontaneously generating fiends, this Tyroshi Magnate has doomed himself.
 
I don't suppose ya'll could just shelve the Archon debate for now, eh? No one is breaking out any fresh insights or inspired arguments to support their side.

Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. This is one of those times, folks.

We'll see how the chips fall and make a decision on how to deal with them when the time comes.
 
Ok, let me break this down real simple because you're arguing against yourself here.

  • Probably loosing their war against...um...who exactly?
  • Able to deploy an Angelic host to conquer an entire Plane.
Pick one. You don't get to have both.
1. The lower planes?
2. No, to topple the tip of the pyramid of a centralised empire. They just need a good propaganda campaign where they air out all of our dirty laundry and a strike-team to kill the main party. Then they give a few speeches about how poor Viserys was corrupted, but the dream was true and they will now lead the Imperium to achieve it.

Seriously. These guys aren't entirely incompetent.
 
Oh, if we're arguing about the nature of the Evil Outsider playing part in the punishment, I have the perfect response:

That's not a response at all. It's you trying to claw more HD into the larder in a way that sets us another step down the slippery slope to Lawful Evil.

His crime is negligence and mortal cruelty. He dies. But he isn't sacrifice fodder, unless he tried to use the entity for his own gain.
 
That's not a response at all. It's you trying to claw more HD into the larder in a way that sets us another step down the slippery slope to Lawful Evil.

His crime is negligence and mortal cruelty. He dies. But he isn't sacrifice fodder, unless he tried to use the entity for his own gain.
You're strawmanning me. This is the most pathetic sacrifice ever and I don't care if he goes to the Larder or not. Saying that I'm just after more HD simply is not true. However, in my eyes being such a bastard that you spontaneously generated a monster of despair and misfortune should qualify you as fodder.
 
a strike-team to kill the main party.
10 characters of serious level.

That's not a job for a strike-team, more for a Star Archon to come down personally, or maybe a Gate Archon with retinue.
With a bunch more mid-ranking archons just working to keep the fallout from burning down our capital.

I'm not saying heaven can't kill us with relative ease if they bring out the big guns, but it will not be quick or discrete.
 
Last edited:
... Mortal crimes deserve mortal punishment, that's what got us Maelor.

If spontaneously generating Daemons was really something that happens when a certain threshold of evil is crossed, we could measure it with that. But evidently it doesn't (because there are lots of assholes in Planetos and this hasn't happened in every city's backyard), so we can't really measure it by their consequences.
 
10 characters of serious level.

That's not a job for a strike-team, more for a Star Archon to come down personally.
With a bunch more mid-ranking archons just working to keep the fallout from burning down our capital.

I'm not saying heaven can't kill us with relative ease if they bring out the big guns, but it will not be quick or discrete.
No, more the whole divine retribution striking down the wicked false prophet.

My main point is that we are currently merely tolerated by Team LG, but that might change at any point.


The goal is to either make Yrael fall in line as our beard or at least drawing the frontlines in that conflict, if it is unavoidable.
 
If spontaneously generating Daemons was really something that happens when a certain threshold of evil is crossed, we could measure it with that. But evidently it doesn't (because there are lots of assholes in Planetos and this hasn't happened in every city's backyard), so we can't really measure it by their consequences.
The fact that this doesn't happen everywhere just shows that this guy is exceptionally evil even by the standards of the Free Cities. We're talking someone so fucked up that even the other Tyroshi slave-owners probably find him creepy in a vague 'I break slaves at the wheel, but he goes too far'.

A guy so creepy the Daemon cult didn't invite him to their conspiracy because he'd not see the point in keeping it secret, eating people is just the normal Tuesday meal to him. And anybody who saw them associating with this guy would immediately know they are nuts.
 
Last edited:
The fact that this doesn't happen everywhere just shows that this guy is exceptionally evil even by the standards of the Free Cities. We're talking someone so fucked up that even the other Tyroshi slave-owners probably find him creepy.

A guy so creepy the Daemon cult didn't invite him to their conspiracy because he'd not see the point in keeping it secret, it's all just normal Tuesday stuff to him.

Some artists allowed a CG and a CE outsiders to enter our world years ago by being artists.

Magic doesn't actually make enough sense as to be able to measure it.
 
Some artists allowed a CG and a CE outsiders to enter our world years ago by being artists.

Magic doesn't actually make enough sense as to be able to measure it.
Braavos is probably the center of the arts in western Essos (keeping in mind it's the one city where artists aren't more likely to be purpose raised slaves rather than free men) and above anything at Westeros for sure, so yeah, there's a reason it happened there.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top