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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Goldfish said:
In the Pathfinder setting, there is a god, Irori, who started out life as a mortal, but who ascended to godhood through basically mastering all aspects of himself, physical, mental, and spiritual.

I think he maxed out in Monk, Wizard, and Psion.

His followers seek to emulate his achievements and follow in his footsteps.

Maybe we can try something similar with Trios? Don't worship the god, but instead seek to become like him, through achieving perfection.
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The basic problem with attempting to "achieve perfection" is that very few people in a mostly medieval world really have the time and resources to spend attempting such a thing.

Random peasant farmer definitely won't have the time nor the care to do something like that, and even a well off merchant would be far more concerned with material goods than achieving enlightenment.
Anyone with the time and dedication to put themselves towards achieving perfection will likely gain quite a few monk levels, but such a religion really won't have any sort of wide spread appeal.

Unlike Yss or the Old Gods (who provide boons for services rendered) or the Seven/Rhi'llor (who promise miracles and salvation after death in return for devotion) there really is no drive in this perfection cult to make it something that most of the population in Planetos care about.
 
Raichu1972 said:
The basic problem with attempting to "achieve perfection" is that very few people in a mostly medieval world really have the time and resources to spend attempting such a thing.

Random peasant farmer definitely won't have the time nor the care to do something like that, and even a well off merchant would be far more concerned with material goods than achieving enlightenment.
Anyone with the time and dedication to put themselves towards achieving perfection will likely gain quite a few monk levels, but such a religion really won't have any sort of wide spread appeal.

Unlike Yss or the Old Gods (who provide boons for services rendered) or the Seven/Rhi'llor (who promise miracles and salvation after death in return for devotion) there really is no drive in this perfection cult to make it something that most of the population in Planetos care about.
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The cult of Trios is actually pretty popular in Tyrosh. There was even an interlude of a baker in Sorcerer's Deep who follows Trios. Even if you don't pursue perfection in everything (which is frankly an impossible goal for anyone), at the very least you can strive for perfection in what you do. So the baker just focuses on being a really good baker, the farmer at being a farmer, etc. It's less about enlightenment and more about self-fulfillment.
 
Duesal said:
The cult of Trios is actually pretty popular in Tyrosh. There was even an interlude of a baker in Sorcerer's Deep who follows Trios. Even if you don't pursue perfection in everything (which is frankly an impossible goal for anyone), at the very least you can strive for perfection in what you do. So the baker just focuses on being a really good baker, the farmer at being a farmer, etc. It's less about enlightenment and more about self-fulfillment.
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That works well enough for the worship of Trios, but doesn't fit well into @Goldfish 's example of emulation their God through perfection in all ways.

Even then, I imagine some of the draw towards Trios worship is the belief in a good afterlife if one works towards perfection, something that rather explicitly requires a God. I imagine any attempt to reveal that Trios is actually a sham will lead to a decent chunk of people moving on to a more tangible God, like Rhi'llor.
 
Raichu1972 said:
That works well enough for the worship of Trios, but doesn't fit well into @Goldfish 's example of emulation their God through perfection in all ways.

Even then, I imagine some of the draw towards Trios worship is the belief in a good afterlife if one works towards perfection, something that rather explicitly requires a God. I imagine any attempt to reveal that Trios is actually a sham will lead to a decent chunk of people moving on to a more tangible God, like Rhi'llor.
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Just because the god is a sham doesn't mean that what it preaches is a sham. The fake religion pretty accurately speaks on the soul's journey through afterlife. Also, I'm surprised that a god is required for a good afterlife? I was pretty sure that all you had to do was not be Evil and you won't get completely fucked over. Sure, gods you swear to will bring you to their domains or whatever, but if you're Lawful Good and you act like it shouldn't you just end up at Mount Celestia even if you don't actually hold to any Lawful Good deity?
 
Duesal said:
Just because the god is a sham doesn't mean that what it preaches is a sham. The fake religion pretty accurately speaks on the soul's journey through afterlife. Also, I'm surprised that a god is required for a good afterlife? I was pretty sure that all you had to do was not be Evil and you won't get completely fucked over. Sure, gods you swear to will bring you to their domains or whatever, but if you're Lawful Good and you act like it shouldn't you just end up at Mount Celestia even if you don't actually hold to any Lawful Good deity?
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That's at least how it was in regular DnD, but with the Shattering of the Upper Planes I wouldn't be entirely sure of that.
Even then I imagine that most of Planetos won't understand much of Planar cosmology, and the ones that do would likely (rightfully so) fear for their soul after hearing about the Shattering and decide that sticking with a powerful Diety to protect them is a better idea than leaving the fate of their soul to chance.
 
Raichu1972 said:
That's at least how it was in regular DnD, but with the Shattering of the Upper Planes I wouldn't be entirely sure of that.
Even then I imagine that most of Planetos won't understand much of Planar cosmology, and the ones that do would likely (rightfully so) fear for their soul after hearing about the Shattering and decide that sticking with a powerful Diety to protect them is a better idea than leaving the fate of their soul to chance.
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Okay, if that's how it is in regular D&D, then what happens to a Lawful Good soul who isn't claimed by any god? Are they allowed into Mount Celestia if they've lived a Lawful Good life? Or are they rejected solely due to the lack of a divine patron?
 
There's the implication that thanks to the Disjunction of Spheres, a good after-life isn't guaranteed. Put it one way, Devas cannot even get around to perform their duties. And whatever the Inevitables are focusing on repairing, they have no time to sort through nonsense like giant soul trap networks run by Evil Outsiders, so therein lies the problem; If you're a good person or even just not a bad person, there's virtually no guarantee that you won't end up in Hell or the Abyss or Abaddon... as food.

Gods won't save you, and most are too dickish to bother even if they have the oomph to throw around. Think about it, recent forged connections have proven that sacrifice driven means of gaining energy, rather than worship, are inefficient for long-term, repetitive operations like divine intercessions, if they aren't even a good tradeoff for regular minor boons.

Which sort of implies that worship, being less energy dense, wouldn't have a chance in hell of doing more than breaking even in the case of Burny, millions of worshipers or no, because he would have millions of crises' or imminent pleas to intervene in or respond to.

And given what we've observed of him, he doesn't give a shit unless it directly strokes or slights his ego, no matter how hard his servants call him.
 
Duesal said:
Okay, if that's how it is in regular D&D, then what happens to a Lawful Good soul who isn't claimed by any god? Are they allowed into Mount Celestia if they've lived a Lawful Good life? Or are they rejected solely due to the lack of a divine patron?
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I would imagine that a LG soul would be allowed to chill in the LG plane, although I fully admit that I don't have nearly as much DnD knowledge as most of the people here.
But as I said, with the Disjunction (not the Shattering, sorry about that) there is a not unlikely chance that Lg souls could be redirected or consumed on arrival for all we know (which is essentially nothing)
We do know that attempting to summon something from the Upper Planes carries a decently high risk to summon something from the lower planes instead, which leads me to believe the LG souls would have a hard time getting to the Upper Planes on their own.

Crake said:
There's the implication that thanks to the Disjunction of Spheres, a good after-life isn't guaranteed. Put it one way, Devas cannot even get around to perform their duties. And whatever the Inevitables are focusing on repairing, they have no time to sort through nonsense like giant soul trap networks run by Evil Outsiders, so therein lies the problem; If you're a good person or even just not a bad person, there's virtually no guarantee that you won't end up in Hell or the Abyss or Abaddon... as food.

Gods won't save you, and most are too dickish to bother even if they have the oomph to throw around. Think about it, recent forged connections have proven that sacrifice driven means of gaining energy, rather than worship, are inefficient for long-term, repetitive operations like divine intercessions, if they aren't even a good tradeoff for regular minor boons.

Which sort of implies that worship, being less energy dense, wouldn't have a chance in hell of doing more than breaking even in the case of Burny, millions of worshipers or no, because he would have millions of crises' or imminent pleas to intervene in or respond to.

And given what we've observed of him, he doesn't give a shit unless it directly strokes or slights his ego, no matter how hard his servants call him.
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Even if many Gods are assholes, most of them are at least highly possessive of their worshipers.
I imagine that even a cunt like Burny would still claim the souls of his worshipers, because they are his slaves if nothing else.
 
Thing is, that's another thing that makes me think Burny is really just Asmodeus. It would be much more efficient to reap that harvest if he didn't have to actively shepherd his followers to the "Snooty Planes". Actually, the more I think about the theory, the less I can accept the alternative. Where is Rh'llor chilling out if not Baator? There are personal demesnes that Gods can form, but they're typically formed within another main-line Plane, or around it as a nexus.
 
I don't know a lot about this but what I do know is that Faerun is pretty well known for The Faithless, what this tells me is that there are multiple ways of treating non-god-worshippers between settings and that Faerun's bad ending approach seems to be the exception.

Very good point about the broken planes though, perhaps we need to create a beachhead for the faithless of our realm to settle in their afterlife.

Viserys' blessed realm extends from one world to the next, across the planes and into death.
 
Deliste said:
I don't know a lot about this but what I do know is that Faerun is pretty well known for The Faithless, what this tells me is that there are multiple ways of treating non-god-worshippers between settings and that Faerun's bad ending approach seems to be the exception.

Very good point about the broken planes though, perhaps we need to create a beachhead for the faithless of our realm to settle in their afterlife.

Viserys' blessed realm extends from one world to the next, across the planes and into death.
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I'm pretty sure the Wall of the Faithless only exists because Myrkul was an asshole, and otherwise the souls would just go to the planes of their alignment.

Creating an afterlife in a place where people essentially venerate their leader seems like a good way to unintentionally (?) become a God, which seems to be something many players want to avoid.
overall seems like a bad idea to me.
 
Raichu1972 said:
I'm pretty sure the Wall of the Faithless only exists because Myrkul was an asshole, and otherwise the souls would just go to the planes of their alignment.

Creating an afterlife in a place where people essentially venerate their leader seems like a good way to unintentionally (?) become a God, which seems to be something many players want to avoid.
overall seems like a bad idea to me.
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If we do trip up and accidentally become a god, we could always just work out a ritual to drain our divine energy until we're at a baseline Divine Rank 0. Maybe just spend Wishes to give ourselves and Companions nifty new feats, or figure out how to sacrifice our divinity to one of our divine partners. I'm sure any of them would appreciate the snack and give us something nice for it.
 
Raichu1972 said:
I'm pretty sure the Wall of the Faithless only exists because Myrkul was an asshole, and otherwise the souls would just go to the planes of their alignment.

Creating an afterlife in a place where people essentially venerate their leader seems like a good way to unintentionally (?) become a God, which seems to be something many players want to avoid.
overall seems like a bad idea to me.
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Yeah I'm still thinking through that but God-King may be a possible distinction ala 40K, the issue needs to be explored either way at some point.

Duesal said:
If we do trip up and accidentally become a god, we could always just work out a ritual to drain our divine energy until we're at a baseline Divine Rank 0. Maybe just spend Wishes to give ourselves and Companions nifty new feats, or figure out how to sacrifice our divinity to one of our divine partners. I'm sure any of them would appreciate the snack and give us something nice for it.
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This is probably the most literal example of my plan to keep power at arms length, doing the king thing and commanding the power of others might work.
 
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Deliste said:
This is probably the most literal example of my plan to keep power at arms length, doing the king thing and commanding the power of others might work.
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I'm pretty much aiming for that Divine Rank 0 then I'm done. Just get to Immortality, none of the annoying consequences of actual godhood, then we can rest easy while making a deal with one of our partner gods to carefully siphon off energy if we get too bloated. That or just go in a Wish spree, which would honestly be more fun.
 
Divine Salient abilities are awesome though. Really awesome.
Potentially worth the cost of becoming a God, too. Especially if we don't bind ourselves in weird pacts with the Others or the Pit, and if we can remain incarnate upon this plane indefinitely.
 
Duesal said:
Okay, if that's how it is in regular D&D, then what happens to a Lawful Good soul who isn't claimed by any god? Are they allowed into Mount Celestia if they've lived a Lawful Good life? Or are they rejected solely due to the lack of a divine patron?
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Deliste said:
I don't know a lot about this but what I do know is that Faerun is pretty well known for The Faithless, what this tells me is that there are multiple ways of treating non-god-worshippers between settings and that Faerun's bad ending approach seems to be the exception.

Very good point about the broken planes though, perhaps we need to create a beachhead for the faithless of our realm to settle in their afterlife.

Viserys' blessed realm extends from one world to the next, across the planes and into death.
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We had the question up earlier, souls here go to a plane fitting their alignment, DP explicitly mentioned the Wall of the Faithless as not a thing here.

What we can do to help people feel save about their afterlife, is introducing them to the Monadic Deva we met and support her work, which is to ensure that souls go where they are supposed to be.
Once we are an interplanar power we can set minions and ressources to secure the ways souls take post mortem and thereby guarantee their safety (if they don't happen to belong down below anyway) without having to become a god or create an afterlife.
There are many perfectly adequate afterlifes, the multiverse just needs good roadwardens to ensure the system works.

Though if @Azel is part of the planning for that idea we'll propably take a toll.:D
 
You guys should be very happy you force me to play devil advocate for Lawful Good in this thread because normally I make Genocide Elves and burning children of the apocalypse along with the occasional Murder Buddha Jesus.
 
Goldfish said:
Yeah, DP could rule it that way, but I hope not. The crafting system is not user friendly at all, but I've tried to simplify it as much as possible for DP's sake and sanity, to keep him from having to do too much manual input on the rolls.

I can see justifying those kinds of production numbers because the item is fairly simple and low cost, so you can have very large batches of it cooking all at once.

EDIT: It's also supposed to be abstracted across an entire week, but you can accomplish the same results going with the daily option. In that case, making multiple rolls per day would be a huge hassle.

EDIT #2: It doesn't affect the production of Alchemist's Fire at all, because of the item's expense, and even the Vermin Repellent isn't affected that much, despite being four times cheaper at 5 D&D gold.
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To be honest I'd prefer some kind of batch production where i roll once for each type of concoction, but I can't get to drafting a system like that until I get home so I can have access to source books.
 
DragonParadox said:
To be honest I'd prefer some kind of batch production where i roll once for each type of concoction, but I can't get to drafting a system like that until I get home so I can have access to source books.
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That's easy enough to do. Here, take a look at the Alchemy Crafting tab of the Accounting sheet again. Scroll down a little bit and you'll see where I have a sample set up that only requires one set of rolls for a full week.

I've got 10's plugged in for all the check results on the daily and weekly version, so you can see that there is not much difference in the overall results. The weekly version will just be more subject to high and lows swings due to bad dice rolls.

EDIT: Actually, it throws the formulae off somehow. Working on a fix now.

EDIT #2: Turns out my first formulae from earlier in the week were correct and I cocked it up when I tried to apply success multipliers yesterday (you were right, @TotallyNotEvil). It's fixed now, but feel free to check behind me. Sorry for the confusion, I blame the puppy!
 
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