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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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A pure Research Arcanum should have no Outer Lores at all. She should instead be created as a True Neutral Outsider, preferably with the Earth Lore for sheer implacable patience and mental stability. We could easily mitigate the slightly reduced Intelligence score with an enchanted item.

Stop trying to make excuses for why y'all want Bad Girl Lya duplicates running around.
 
Seems we have achieved consensus.
Adhoc vote count started by Takesis on May 6, 2018 at 2:06 PM, finished with 187000 posts and 18 votes.
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Goldfish said:
A pure Research Arcanum should have no Outer Lores at all. She should instead be created as a True Neutral Outsider, preferably with the Earth Lore for sheer implacable patience and mental stability. We could easily mitigate the slightly reduced Intelligence score with an enchanted item.

Stop trying to make excuses for why y'all want Bad Girl Lya duplicates running around.
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What I want is, for example, to be able to research bio-weapons against Sahuagin and Mindflayers in the Fungus Forge. That requires a researcher willing to do these things and evidence suggests that we won't get that without setting someone Evil at it.

If I wanted a Bad Girl Lya like you claim, I would push for an Evil combat Arcanum instead of one that is narratively buried in the Shadow Tower and never shows up except to present us the results of its latest work.
 
zxzx24 said:
Evil takes a very particular mind set, and attitude.

Being evil and happy is an exhausting exercise in mental gymnastics.

Look at Wayla. She is still one of the happiest vampires I have ever seen.
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I'm thoroughly baffled why people keep insisting that being Evil means you have to be miserable all the time. Is it so inconceivable for you to consider that a moral framework that differs from yours is capable of being satisfying for a person?
 
Azel said:
I'm thoroughly baffled why people keep insisting that being Evil means you have to be miserable all the time. Is it so inconceivable for you to consider that a moral framework that differs from yours is capable of being satisfying for a person?
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Wyla's existence proves this wrong. Evil, Negative energy, and utterly uncaring about morals. Happy to boot. The only reason we're bothering to change her from a vampire is because she's a point of drama for Garin, otherwise she would have been left alone because she's functional and useful. If it weren't for her connection to Garin then I would have shrugged and ignored her.

Malarys is another point. He's evil, that doesn't mean he hates himself or that he's unhappy. He's in our inner council, quickly growing in magic and power, promised his own dragon, etc. He's got a hell of a good deal right now.

But yeah, I'm also very confused about why evil is somehow incompatible with happiness. Morals aren't something in your head that cry out in despair and make you miserable when you ignore them.
 
You guys are confusing Evil with Negative Energy. Evil is being an asshole. Negative Energy is hating life itself.
 
DragonParadox said:
For the dead also you had given commands that they be cared for, not only the honored head of the legion and those sellswords fallen in your service but the bodies of common citizens and even your earstwile foes who fought in defense of the city.
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Wait, what? The head of our legion is dead? Or is this just a case of lost word or misspelling?
 
Azel said:
What I want is, for example, to be able to research bio-weapons against Sahuagin and Mindflayers in the Fungus Forge. That requires a researcher willing to do these things and evidence suggests that we won't get that without setting someone Evil at it.

If I wanted a Bad Girl Lya like you claim, I would push for an Evil combat Arcanum instead of one that is narratively buried in the Shadow Tower and never shows up except to present us the results of its latest work.
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Vee would do that probably? I don't see the necessity for evil here.
But if we're talking about the Mindflayers then going negative energy is probably best, undead are kinda the weakness of the mindflayers.

Azel said:
I'm thoroughly baffled why people keep insisting that being Evil means you have to be miserable all the time. Is it so inconceivable for you to consider that a moral framework that differs from yours is capable of being satisfying for a person?
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I think that stems from demons/devils not being the happiest bunch around.

But absolutely agree with you that evil people can be happy.
..Negative Energy on the other hand I am not so sure about.
 
Tomcost said:
DP confirmed petrification works as Gentle Repose! We can preserve our fallen legionaries in our own version of the terracotta army
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Now I kindof want to see what happens if we Awaken Object a petrified legionnary.

Duesal said:
@DragonParadox, what does Viserys think about growing a Heart Tree in Braavos using that weirwood sapling in the Wind House? We could power it off of confiscated artifacts from the Silver Eye and let them choose their own effects.
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If we need to talk to the Sealord we might aswell tour the faiths too. Also the Heart Tree were Glyra swore fealty to Daenerys should have a gremlin face on it. :smile:

Fehu said:
Bo reason we cant fit in both in one or two days really.

  • Braavos HeartTree
    • Viserys and Daenerys visits the various faiths, to see who are compatible with SD, NW diplomacy, and allies.
    • "Carved onto the tree are a gremlins visage split like the two-faced mask of Braavosi theater. Where both look like mischief; one's malevolent, the other compassionate."
  • Xorn HeartTree
    • Scout out a huge cavern near the xorn but still separate.
    • Plant pleanty of fruittrees, and extra weirwood saplings.
    • "The face of a elderly xorn is carved into its trunk, placeholder."
  • Mantarys HeartTree
    • Ferry enough obsidian to the former location of the Tower. Where a sufficiently sized circle of pillars will be shaped. Each enchanted to contain everflame glowing within.
    • "A three-headed dragonsigil seen from the front. Each head displaying a different emotion; Challenging pride, Compassion, and slyness."
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Tomcost said:
You guys are confusing Evil with Negative Energy. Evil is being an asshole. Negative Energy is hating life itself.
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Not necessarily. Vampires for example stand as a contrast to that. They have negative energy, but they don't hate all life. You don't hate your dinner. I remember this exact argument being used by the people fighting to keep Wyla as a Vampire. It would have swayed me if it weren't for the Garin drama.
Fehu said:
If we need to talk to the Sealord we might aswell tour the faiths too. Also the Heart Tree were Glyra swore fealty to Daenerys should have a gremlin face on it. :smile:
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Fey and gods don't mix, so a gremlin face isn't the best idea.
 
DragonParadox said:
Lya would not have any moral objections to that in principle. She knows what Mind Falyers are.

Anyway, vote closed.
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"In principle"

Yeah. That's hedging if I ever saw it.

@dpara, I'm hoping to also get bio-engineered plants for industrial purposes from the Fungus Forge and DP stated that we would get quite different results from that research action, depending on who we send. Hence ne not wanting Vee to touch that.
 
Duesal said:
Not necessarily. Vampires for example stand as a contrast to that. They have negative energy, but they don't hate all life. You don't hate your dinner. I remember this exact argument being used by the people fighting to keep Wyla as a Vampire. It would have swayed me if it weren't for the Garin drama.
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Because Vampires, needing to eat, could be said to be more alive than most undead.

Yet they see life as cattle anyway.
 
Duesal said:
Fey and gods don't mix, so a gremlin face isn't the best idea.
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But Glyra literally swore her fealty to that tree, besides it might give her a boost if the tiers' use have thematically appropriate effects to a gremlin.

Really fey and gods do mix if the fey in question are utterly uncaring about being butt hurt at being chaffed divinity. How else could Ymeri be on its way to divinity, and Glyra never comment more upon gods than they are a bore.

Heck, fey are natural divines according to ASwHasoiaf lore right, divine rank - #.
 
Azel said:
@dpara, I'm hoping to also get bio-engineered plants for industrial purposes from the Fungus Forge and DP stated that we would get quite different results from that research action, depending on who we send. Hence ne not wanting Vee to touch that.
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Results in the Soylent Green sense? xD

But hey I'm not fundamentally opposed to an evil Arcanum, though I likely expect a different result than you e.g. "After a long day of shopping Malicia spends the day resting on a divan, eating chocolate covered strawberries".
 
Azel said:
I'm thoroughly baffled why people keep insisting that being Evil means you have to be miserable all the time. Is it so inconceivable for you to consider that a moral framework that differs from yours is capable of being satisfying for a person?
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I do not refuse to believe it.

Perhaps I should say... being happy and evil would require you to build a different mental framework than the normal 2.5 kids white picket fence and a dog mentality that most of society is built towards. (including planetos society)

Which is perfectly fine, and valid. (goodness knows many people find the standard societal mode sickening.)

It would just take work, as does all happiness.

I am personally just nervous about what happens if she decides she needs to strangle puppies to be happy.
 
Tomcost said:
Because Vampires, needing to eat, could be said to be more alive than most undead.

Yet they see life as cattle anyway.
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Not a bad thing at all in a researcher. I want someone utterly uncaring of life in general to do interesting projects for us.
Fehu said:
But Glyra literally swore her fealty to that tree, besides it might give her a boost if the tiers' use have thematically appropriate effects to a gremlin.

Really fey and gods do mix if the fey in question are utterly uncaring about being butt hurt at being chaffed divinity. How else could Ymeri be on its way to divinity, and Glyra never comment more upon gods than they are a bore.

Heck, fey are natural divines according to ASwHasoiaf lore right, divine rank - #.
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Here's the thing, though. It's not supposed to be Glyra's tree, it's supposed to be Braavos' tree. It should reflect them as a city, not the gremlin we captured and convinced to swear fealty to Dany. Carving a gremlin face into the tree is already a bit much given how saturated Braavos already is with fey in general, but going even further and assigning secondary effects to whatever is thematic for Glyra too far. The idea was to let Braavos and the Silver Eye choose the effects, and for us to advise them which ones they'd most likely want. For example, a triple Magic Circle Against Evil would probably cover the entire Wind House and let every Silver Eye member inside benefit from a free and constant PfE effect. Stuff like that.
zxzx24 said:
I am personally just nervous about what happens if she decides she needs to strangle puppies to be happy.
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Easy fix. Have her make do with Imps and Quasits instead.
 
Azel said:
What I want is, for example, to be able to research bio-weapons against Sahuagin and Mindflayers in the Fungus Forge. That requires a researcher willing to do these things and evidence suggests that we won't get that without setting someone Evil at it.

If I wanted a Bad Girl Lya like you claim, I would push for an Evil combat Arcanum instead of one that is narratively buried in the Shadow Tower and never shows up except to present us the results of its latest work.
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Why can't we have a Lawful Evil Positive Energy Research Arcanum then? That would be helpful for bio-weapons research, I'm sure, and she could easily heal anyone who gets partially exploded in a lab accident.

As I've demonstrated throughout the quest, I have no issue with Evil, so long as it is sane. Negative Energy, on the other hand, serves no practical purposes for us whatsoever. It metaphysically poisons the world.
 
On the topic of a Research Arcanum, there are some really great low level spells I've been thinking about for her use.

Of course, Divine Insight goes without saying, but combined with Investigative Mind, Heightened Awareness, Heroism, and Moment of Greatness, she would be able to make fantastical leaps of logic and insight.

Assuming 7 HD, since Lya is guaranteed to have leveled up before we create a Research Arcanum, she'll have 10 ranks in any relevant Knowledge skill, plus at least a +5 point Intelligence modifier. Add +12 from Divine Insight, +2 from Heightened Awareness, and +4 from Heroism (using Moment of Greatness to double the typical +2 bonus), she would have another +18, for a total of +33 Knowledge skill check. Add in Investigative Mind to let her make each roll twice for the best results, and she should be able to advance our knowledge of magic and reality rather easily.

Replacing Heightened Awareness with Channel Vigor would add another +2 to the skill check, but that's a sub-optimal use of a 3rd level spell versus a much longer lasting 1st level one.
 
Goldfish said:
On the topic of a Research Arcanum, there are some really great low level spells I've been thinking about for her use.

Of course, Divine Insight goes without saying, but combined with Investigative Mind, Heightened Awareness, Heroism, and Moment of Greatness, she would be able to make fantastical leaps of logic and insight.

Assuming 7 HD, since Lya is guaranteed to have leveled up before we create a Research Arcanum, she'll have 10 ranks in any relevant Knowledge skill, plus at least a +5 point Intelligence modifier. Add +12 from Divine Insight, +2 from Heightened Awareness, and +4 from Heroism (using Moment of Greatness to double the typical +2 bonus), she would have another +18, for a total of +33 Knowledge skill check. Add in Investigative Mind to let her make each roll twice for the best results, and she should be able to advance our knowledge of magic and reality rather easily.

Replacing Heightened Awareness with Channel Vigor would add another +2 to the skill check, but that's a sub-optimal use of a 3rd level spell versus a much longer lasting 1st level one.
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How high is her Will save?

With the Philosophers Tree, she can get up to another +20 bonus to knowledge.
 
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