We're not turning Viserys into a sadist. If we're killing slavers, we're just going to do it quickly and efficiently. No unnecessary torture. They're going to the lower planes anyway, so they'll suffer eternally.
That there isn't sadism, it's giving all the innocents killed vengeance, if I proposed giving all the worst death possible it would be sadism, but as I only propose to give them the same death they have given others, it's simply justice of the eye for an eye type.

But if we make sure all such types are executed, then I can agree to give them a painless death.
 
@DragonParadox Is that a "they're a less legalistic bunch than the Braavosi or Valyrians" and standing on carefully set precedents and instead just justifying whatever faction holds power's view on something?

Even the Volantenes seem like they have to strike a careful balance of leaning on precedence and legalism when there's such diverse political groupings to consider behind the Black Walls, but Lys, Tyrosh and Myr can probably trend towards consolidating leadership by eliminating or diminishing the influence of rivals.

If so I'm unsure what metric we're going to judge people who committed things Viserys would count atrocities other than assuming most people would be fit for execution, and only staying his hand because of political realities, like needing to prop up one House to counterbalance another.
If we need them and they are amongst the one who committed such atrocities, then I want to get ahold of something to possess them, having them face the horror of being a puppet, would be a good alternative to getting to execute them.

But preferably I would just execute them, we are conquering Tyrosh by force anyway, can break their government down entirely and build a new one.
 
I'm not inclined to show the Tyroshi slavemasters mercy, not unless they made a habit of showing mercy to their slaves.
Punishing people for actions that were not illegal at the time is not particularly moral. How do you even define "showing mercy to their slaves"? Where do we get the people to carefully investigate thousands of slave owners and their families? It's simply not practical.

Also, killing all educated and wealthy people in the Tyrosh would collapse its entire economy and make running the city far harder.

Slaves must be freed, but slaughtering the former slave owners is a dangerous folly.
 
That there isn't sadism, it's giving all the innocents killed vengeance, if I proposed giving all the worst death possible it would be sadism, but as I only propose to give them the same death they have given others, it's simply justice of the eye for an eye type.

But if we make sure all such types are executed, then I can agree to give them a painless death.
Making executions deliberately more painful in general is something I'll fight you against. That is sadism, no matter how you try to dress it up. We're not doing this eye-for-an-eye shit. Effects on Viserys' psyche aside, that's a one way road to party drama.
 
Punishing people for actions that were not illegal at the time is not particularly moral. How do you even define "showing mercy to their slaves"? Where do we get the people to carefully investigate thousands of slave owners and their families? It's simply not practical.

Also, killing all educated and wealthy people in the Tyrosh would collapse its entire economy and make running the city far harder.

Slaves must be freed, but slaughtering the former slave owners is a dangerous folly.

Yeah but if you're too light handed you get Canon!Danys' issues in Slavers Bay. I know there's a train of thought that states she would've been better served to have killed off most if not all of the ruling class than by the route Canon her took. The reasoning is the subsequent administrative chaos and training or forming another ruling class from scratch still would've been less damaging than keeping people in power who hate and actively undermine her.

I trust the thread politicians to come up with a good way to purge the Tyrosh nobles and keep the remainder poised against each other first.
 
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I wonder, would it count as mercy to obliterate a soul instead of sending it to the lower planes?

@DragonParadox , can we know the Archon's opinion on this matter?

They think the dead are beyond caring for vengeance and the purpose of justice is to allow those guilty to understand their crimes and forgive themselves for it. While they will execute those who are too dangerous to let loose (like cultists) the Archons avoid executions in all other cases.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Apr 30, 2018 at 12:30 PM
This vote count is in an error state, please contact support
 
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Quite frankly our time is too precious to spend it dealing out complex punishments too slavers, just be quick and efficient about it so we can do actual important work of running our kingdom and other things.

Curious, will we kill slave owners as well or simply demand they free slaves they own along with down payment for all their service? If this drives largest owners to poverty I think that is a great bargain to keeping their lives, and if they resist they are free to join hanging with slavers.
 
Punishing people for actions that were not illegal at the time is not particularly moral. How do you even define "showing mercy to their slaves"? Where do we get the people to carefully investigate thousands of slave owners and their families? It's simply not practical.

Also, killing all educated and wealthy people in the Tyrosh would collapse its entire economy and make running the city far harder.

Slaves must be freed, but slaughtering the former slave owners is a dangerous folly.
Mercy in this case, is such things as not having a slave whipped for spilling a glass of wine, and more importantly is not having your slaves killed, unless they did something a Freeman would be executed for, basically if you had slaves killed for something you wouldn't have had a Freeman servant killed for, then you should be executed yourself.

If you're the type who had your slaves whipped for every little mistake, and executed them for the big ones, or for minor acts of defiance, then you should be killed, if you didn't do that but actually kept such punishment for major infractions, then you shouldn't be executed.
Making executions deliberately more painful in general is something I'll fight you against. That is sadism, no matter how you try to dress it up. We're not doing this eye-for-an-eye shit. Effects on Viserys' psyche aside, that's a one way road to party drama.
Ok then just normal executions, so long as the bastards get a bad case of death instead of a chance at getting with the program, I don't want to give people, who have executed a slave because their younger brother fell in love with her a chance.
 
Vote count
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Apr 30, 2018 at 12:31 PM, finished with 65 posts and 9 votes.

  • [X] Viserys casts Greater Arcane Sight and Dany uses True Seeing. (NOTE: I'm assuming Viserys has already cast AoN, VotD, and Divine Insight for hardcore Diplomancing)
    -[X] If the scene is as it appears at first glance, Viserys uses Greater Shadow Enchantment to place a Touch of Slumber on the sellsword's companion and Blood Wish to create a Zone of Silence around his bed before waking him.
    --[X] If there is more going on than first seems apparent, confer with Richard and Dany on how to proceed.
    -[X] Engage Full Diplomacy Protocols, explaining the impending treachery from his subordinate, and how we would like him to change sides. It would be much better for him and his men. They have an opportunity to get an early place within the organization of a new power rising in Essos.
    [X] Totallynotevil
 
They think the dead are beyond caring for vengeance and the purpose of justice is to allow those guilty to understand their crimes and forgive themselves for it. While they will execute those who are too dangerous to let loose (like cultists) the Archons avoid executions in all other cases.

Vote count

So, it is ok to destroy a soul instrad of sending it to the lower planes when the target is irredeemable?
 
They think the dead are beyond caring for vengeance and the purpose of justice is to allow those guilty to understand their crimes and forgive themselves for it. While they will execute those who are too dangerous to let loose (like cultists) the Archons avoid executions in all other cases.
Would a good idea from their minds be to have former owners pay back all freed slaves most of their wealth in general since most made it on the backs of their work?
 
@DragonParadox Maybe it's just because I haven't finished waking up from my afternoon nap, but this line is confusing me.

As the men struggled in vain against foes they could not even hope to touch, a commanding voice, familiar to all, rang out from the upper ramparts: "Lay down your arms! For the love of the gods we surrender, lower your arms!"

Why is the voice familiar?
 
Quite frankly our time is too precious to spend it dealing out complex punishments too slavers, just be quick and efficient about it so we can do actual important work of running our kingdom and other things.

Curious, will we kill slave owners as well or simply demand they free slaves they own along with down payment for all their service? If this drives largest owners to poverty I think that is a great bargain to keeping their lives, and if they resist they are free to join hanging with slavers.
We don't kill slave owners by default, what we are discussing is killing those slave owners, who have been torturing or killing their slaves, Tyrosh has been a slaver city for many generations, so the people there has been brought up from birth to believe slavery is right, which mean there are good people who own slaves, which is why whether they own slaves isn't how to determine their guilt, it's how they treated said slaves, people like Hermetia before the evils of slavery got pointed out to her, were still not the type to have a slave whipped for minor mistakes, much less the type to have a slave whipped for their amusement, people like that just have to be taught the error of their ways, it's the people who take joy in punishing their slaves, and so do it for the smallest infraction, that needs to die.
 
We don't kill slave owners by default, what we are discussing is killing those slave owners, who have been torturing or killing their slaves,
tarrangar you already know the answer to that question(i.e almost all of them). Your desire to kill slavers and such in a particularly painful fashion is starting to get disturbing.
 
Yeah but if you're too light handed you get Canon!Danys' issues in Slavers Bay. I know there's a train of thought that states she would've been better served to have killed off most if not all of the ruling class than by the route Canon her took. The reasoning is the subsequent administrative chaos and training or forming another ruling class from scratch still would've been less damaging than keeping people in power who hate and actively undermine her.

I trust the thread politicians to come up with a good way to purge the Tyrosh nobles and keep the remainder poised against each other first.
Canon-Dany chose the worst of both worlds.

By choosing to execute people from every important family she made the ruling class her eternal personal enemy in addition to the political problems she would have had with them anyway.

Her options were to get them on her side, or crush them, or do a bit of both and get some on her side while eliminating the rest.
Insulting and damaging every family while ending none was literally the worst possible option.
 
tarrangar you already know the answer to that question(i.e almost all of them). Your desire to kill slavers and such in a particularly painful fashion is starting to get disturbing.
I have given up on killing them in particularly painful fashions, now I just want to ensure that those who have been particularly cruel to their slaves, don't get a chance to get with the program, that should be reserved for those slavers, who hasn't been executing or torturing their slaves.
 
@Goldfish :
They have an opportunity to get an early place within the organization of a new power rising in Essos

I don't think he'll care about Tyrosh, so if you mean all Essos, he might go for it, espically the implicit "I'll kill you if you go aginst me", but I'm not sure he'll want to switch from sellsword to legionairre straight off.

Would it be better to offer hin the lives of his comrades if he just lets us excise the rot infesting the city that his very own second in command has fallen to?
[/B]
This is tricky. It's generally eiser with a monster corpse nearby, let's hope the woman is a fiend!

Though she is probably a prostitute or general liver imo.

I'd say age, but that warding implies low skill, or shoddy workmanship, possibly on purpose.
(second gets magical contact, contact is a fiend planning to fuck everone over, makes super crappy ward?).

I mean, a ward you can walk around is a bit... Shameful.

A WIZARD SHOULD KNOW BETTER!
 
@Goldfish :
They have an opportunity to get an early place within the organization of a new power rising in Essos

I don't think he'll care about Tyrosh, so if you mean all Essos, he might go for it, espically the implicit "I'll kill you if you go aginst me", but I'm not sure he'll want to switch from sellsword to legionairre straight off.

Would it be better to offer hin the lives of his comrades if he just lets us excise the rot infesting the city that his very own second in command has fallen to?

We aren't offering him a position in the Legion. This is giving him an opportunity to be friendly to the soon to be ruler of the city, with it being implied that this is only the beginning.

Little does he know that eventually there will be no sellswords in Essos.
 
We aren't offering him a position in the Legion. This is giving him an opportunity to be friendly to the soon to be ruler of the city, with it being implied that this is only the beginning.

Little does he know that eventually there will be no sellswords in Essos.
Sure there will be sellswords in Essos, mostly on vacation of course, but I expect that a fair amount of PC sellswords, will hire out to various extraplanar empires, and Essos will be a nice place to spend their pay.
 
Maybe the merc himself did it, bought an item of Alarm and hung it at the door or something like this?
It's not certain, not even likely, that a Wizard was directly involved.

That's my thought as well. An item with a 1st level Alarm spell wouldn't be very costly at all for a relatively well off sellsword commander, it would likely be seen as a practical security measure. Considering that at least one of his subordinates is plotting to assassinate him, it speaks well toward her perceptiveness and common sense.
 
I have given up on killing them in particularly painful fashions, now I just want to ensure that those who have been particularly cruel to their slaves, don't get a chance to get with the program, that should be reserved for those slavers, who hasn't been executing or torturing their slaves.

Look, we need a few examples to satisfy the slaves need for vengance, we are going to target the worst offenders, or the powerblocks containing the worst slavers. So... Yeah.

And I have a vote policy: minimum cruelty deaths. Torture is literally spsbding time to hurt someone. Unless you have info to get, it's an extra messed up thing (like 2-5 times more) for someone who values their time like Viseryd does to do so; that means that in that moment, hurting someone who was taught that this shit is ok is more important than any of the eighty things vying for attention.
 
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