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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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I hate math, really I do. It's the part of simulated world-building I just can't make work consistently.:(

I know this is a question one does not usually ask the player base, but would cutting the prices in half make them look reasonable?
 
Honestly, the re-work on the Ceru is legitimately appealin', so can we rein in the salt, spite and apathy on that front? Like, yeah, the fact that our option for a mount turned out to be this ridiculous asshat of a guy, who apparently doesn't even know what his own goddamn profession is legit sucks, but we shouldn't let that taint the opportunity that the Ceru present.

Can we just nix the stallion and go for a breeding pair of Ankheg and Ceru, please?
 
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DragonParadox said:
I hate math, really I do. It's the part of simulated world-building I just can't make work consistently.:(

I know this is a question one does not usually ask the player base, but would cutting the prices in half make them look reasonable?
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On a limited per transaction basis. Sometimes there's narrative reasons for certain decisions--like, your horse merchant? Maybe he really, really just needs to make up for that shortfall on the fallen contract, and doesn't really feel like dealing fairly with foreigners... but that should be the result of rolling poorly on either finding a purveyor, or talking to them, not just fiat "it's a lot" determining pricing.

The other stuff probably shouldn't be as expensive as you initially priced it, but that's the thing. This entire conversation is pointless so long as you really, really do not care to approach the math portion of huge marketplaces where exotic goods, myriad and varied, are consistently being sold, which we consistently want to come back for seconds to, to buy yet more strange, exotic goods.

You're just going to be right back here where we started with this sooner or later, dude.
 
Azel said:
Here is the kicker. I simply consider the image of dragging a small animal around all day pretty silly.

Take note that our familiars never play a role in fights. They just don't fit into the narrative.
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To be fair, that's cause we've kinda opted to exclude them from the narrative? Familiars aren't exactly unheard of in D&D, and ASoIaF aside, this is D&D.
 
DragonParadox said:
I have to say It's a little disappointing that you guys are not buying anything. If it's the prices... well this is the place gold and jewels do occasionally grow on trees. the Opaline Vault has high prices to compensate for its sheer variety and wealth of trade.
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I have a big problem with this.

We're using the local currency, not gold or silver or anything. Why are the prices still unbelievably high? Isn't it obvious that something like that would severely cripple the Shaitan's own market?
DragonParadox said:
I hate math, really I do. It's the part of simulated world-building I just can't make work consistently.:(

I know this is a question one does not usually ask the player base, but would cutting the prices in half make them look reasonable?
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It'd make everything a lot more reasonable.
 
Crake said:
On a limited per transaction basis. Sometimes there's narrative reasons for certain decisions--like, your horse merchant? Maybe he really, really just needs to make up for that shortfall on the fallen contract, and doesn't really feel like dealing fairly with foreigners... but that should be the result of rolling poorly on either finding a purveyor, or talking to them, not just fiat "it's a lot" determining pricing.

The other stuff probably shouldn't be as expensive as you initially priced it, but that's the thing. This entire conversation is pointless so long as you really, really do not care to approach the math portion of huge marketplaces where exotic goods, myriad and varied, are consistently being sold, which we consistently want to come back for seconds to, to buy yet more strange, exotic goods.

You're just going to be right back here where we started with this sooner or later, dude.
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While I really don't like it to get another kick in @DragonParadox, he is right. This isn't remotely the first time where pricing has caused piles of salt.

Trading is the same, but item pricing is something that we would always have, even in a 100% murderhobo quest.

Edit: And personally, halving them won't convince me. The utility is just too low, even then.
 
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It's probably better to see all the market sections before we buy anything. We can come back in a few hours. That said, having an earth stallion as a stud horse would help us recruit more Dothraki (or other horse breeders.)
 
DragonParadox said:
I hate math, really I do. It's the part of simulated world-building I just can't make work consistently.:(

I know this is a question one does not usually ask the player base, but would cutting the prices in half make them look reasonable?
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Half? The Ceru are being overpriced by 900%.

The horses? 9,000 gold for each?

Half of those prices are still ridiculous.
 
It's not spite. Can we just quit it with this spite talk? That hasn't, nor will it ever determine voter blocs. That's just counter-salt.

We're voting against it because we see opportunity costs are not meshing well with our current plans. That's it.

Even I'm against it in principle because of roleplay. Which should be admirable in a player, not held in contempt.
 
Breeding tank-horses? Costly, lengthy and won't have any significant effect once they grow to sufficient numbers as we overgrow the problem, both in levels and in amount of money.
Acid-thingies? Costly, pointless (as we never had the need for acid, really) and really is money better spend on something else.
Luck-elephants? Costly, breeding is problematic due to morals (int fucking 13) and very lenghty. Again, by the point of time they're in any sufficient numbers - all of our PC's will have enough wealth on them to add at-will-alter-fortune without even noticing.

Did I mention all the shit being costly?

My point is, all these things are cool. Some - more than others.
But they don't coincide in the slightest with our mid- and long-term goals.
Making profits. Turning them into cool things for our Pc's. Fighting off all sorts of supernatural threats. Conquering Plane Material. Making quality of life in PM higher for our subjects.

And I don't mean prices in market by "costly" (even though they're fucked up), but all the arrangements we'll have to make, using our most precious resource - time.
 
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Azel said:
While I really don't like it to get another kick in @DragonParadox, he is right. This isn't remotely the first time where pricing has caused piles of salt.

Trading is the same, but item pricing is something that we would always have, even in a 100% murderhobo quest.

Edit: And personally, halving them won't convince me. The utility is just too low, even then.
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The problem is that absolutely consistent pricing does not make sense, there has to be variation. However in the absence of a system I go with my gut which unfortunately gets us back in a situation similar which lead to the implementation of the diplomacy system, i.e being too strict and heavy handed for game balancing purposes.

I think the solution is a proper framework to built and embellish on. How is the economics discussion going?
 
Goldfish said:
Half? The Ceru are being overpriced by 900%.

The horses? 9,000 gold for each?

Half of those prices are still ridiculous.
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DP explained why he had up-jumped the price on them, and then offered a tweak to the ability to boot. As for the Istaheq, are they not a CR 6? if Griffon eggs are ~3-4,000, then is it truly so outlandish for a CR 6 Istaheq stallion to be ~9,000? That merchant's a massive cock too.
 
Azel said:
Without comparing the prices of different goods and services, currency has no meaning.

And fact is, we can make a lot of neat items for the money it would cost us to buy a few marginally useful animals.
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We go a number of tokens. Merchant except these tokens for goods. It's up to us if we accept the number of tokens they demand - or not.
 
egoo said:
Luck-elephants? Costly, breeding is problematic due to morals (int fucking 13) and very lenghty. Again, by the point of time they're in any sufficient numbers - all of our PC's will have enough wealth on them to add at-will-alter-fortune without even noticing.
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There will always be babby adventurers. Remember, we plan to be a King(and more), not a 100% pure murderhobo.
 
DragonParadox said:
OOC: Just to be clear this is not a familiar for Maelor, not only does the not have the class feature, the drake really does not like to be bound. think of it more as a cohort.
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This seems rather illegal on the summoners side, considering it was summoned here and he then sought to bind it, that's slavery, and slavery is supposed to be highly regulated here, I would think the law would be firmly against, forcibly binding creatures that's not already slaves, if he had bought it to bind on the market, or captured it outside of the city, there would probably be no problem.

But I doubt summoning and enslaving sapient beings is legal here, if for nothing else, then because genies are amongst the potential things you can do such to.

So I really have to wonder whether his summoning of the drake was legal, if he just summoned it to negotiate for it's service, then it was probably legal, but if he summoned it with the intent to bind it whether it wanted to or not, then I expect he would be in worse trouble than it if it comes to light.

Allowing mages to do things like this, just don't mesh with the Shaitan's brand of LN in my opinion, it's not really different from random slave raids on innocent targets, and that's not how the Shaitan's seem to do their slaving, of course I could be wrong, but this seems rather illegal to me.

[X] Buy nothing.
 
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Look, in the interest of not arguing for the better part of the day on this one vote, can we shelve the vote on what we actually buy 'til we've seen more of the Opaline Vault and what it has to offer? @DragonParadox?

In the meantime, it'd allow the discussion on prices to continue, but without forcing a final sort of decision in the midst of it. Then, once we figure it out at last, we can decide on what we go for with the decided on prices.
 
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It's implied that there are probably better reasons than embarassment to not report to the authorities that your thieving potential-familiar does not, in fact, want to accept you as its master.

Like, just for instance, the whole thing being unregulated. And around here, a disturbing proportion of crimes have a sentencing of "slavery for more years than you'll live" as the punishment for breaking the law.

Sounds to me like the mage did not want to be the one enslaved in turn.
 
tarrangar said:
This seems rather illegal on the summoners side, considering it was summoned here and he then sought to bind it, that's slavery, and slavery is supposed to be highly regulated here, I would think the law would be firmly against, forcibly binding creatures that's not already slaves, if he had bought it to bind on the market, or captured it outside of the city, there would probably be no problem.

But I doubt summoning and enslaving sapient beings is legal here, if for nothing else, then because genies are amongst the potential things you can do such to.

So I really have to wonder whether his summoning of the drake was legal, if he just summoned it to negotiate for it's service, then it was probably legal, but if he summoned it with the intent to bind it whether it wanted to or not, then I expect he would be in worse trouble than it if it comes to light.

Allowing mages to do things like this, just don't mesh with the Shaitan's brand of LN in my opinion, it's not really different from random slave raids on innocent targets, and that's not how the Shaitan's seem to do their slaving, of course I could be wrong, but this seems rather illegal to me.
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Shadow drakes are not recognized sophonts, because they are generally thieves and pests, so no one put them on the list. Therefore it's e legal grey area. You could of course prove that it is sapient, but then someone would have to argue that the law is so vital that it deserves retroactive application.
 
DragonParadox said:
The problem is that absolutely consistent pricing does not make sense, there has to be variation. However in the absence of a system I go with my gut which unfortunately gets us back in a situation similar which lead to the implementation of the diplomacy system, i.e being too strict and heavy handed for game balancing purposes.

I think the solution is a proper framework to built and embellish on. How is the economics discussion going?
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Didn't have much time for it, due to moving, posting the promised railgun and finally updating my own quest again.

I do have some ideas, but it would probably be helpful if you could say in which grade of detail you want to cover different things. So far, I was focusing on trading and upkeep costs. Setting sane market prices might be more involved.
 
egoo said:
And I don't mean prices in market by "costly" (even though they're fucked up), but all the arrangements we'll have to make, using our most precious resource - time.
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Ding Ding Ding, ring the fucking bell because you nailed it.

To add to the discussion @DragonParadox our main resource, indeed our most precious resource is time.

3 years and counting until the Squid Armageddon.

The White Walkers gearing up for a throw down.

The impending rush once the news that the Plane of Balance lies unguarded and unwarded reaches the wrong ears.

Hell even the 'nobility' of Westeros getting antsy and starting shit again.

We don't have the time to waste on 'long term gains' if said gains aren't going to be monumental in their utility and effectiveness.

The options you gave were pretty good in my opinion, and if we didn't have the ticking clock over our heads I wouldn't have minded buying the horses or even the Elephants (if only to free them and gain more civilians in Sorcerer's deep) but the fact of the matter is they weren't worth the time and effort.

We've got a lot of shit about to rain down on our heads and anything that can't lessen the shit or repair the damage afterwards isn't really going to be a priority.
 
DragonParadox said:
I hate math, really I do. It's the part of simulated world-building I just can't make work consistently.:(

I know this is a question one does not usually ask the player base, but would cutting the prices in half make them look reasonable?
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Ankheg: I don't see the utility. Other's might. So, not a price thing.
Stallions: An opportunity, but we'd need them for mounted cavalry, not for PCs. So, breeding. At the moment that means, give them to our Dothraki. Until we've got enough trained half-breeds to fit out a heavy cavalry batallion, that'd be ~20 years from now.
Ceru: INT 13 - if they WANT to be companions, okay. Then, utility is in their magic luck reroll ability, means, take them into combat. Purely for their utility. That's at least grey on the morale scale. And it'd require use of a specific spell just for them to stop being liabilities in combat (Familiar pocket). We let slide how the Ceru knows when to use his ability. That means, we had to clarify the 'slave?' issue, ignore the morality of 'my totally-not-a-slave companion accompanies me into mortal danger because it's more convenient for me than a magic item', solve the logistics (Familiar pocket), and then compare this utility versus all the other stuff we could get for the money.
 
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