A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[Raichu1972]

First off, "You make it sound like we are about to immediately conquer Westeros lol." Were did you get that from? I specifically said that we have lots of time to find other Valyrian dragons to give away but we can never have the prestige of having the first one.

And secondly, a city does not make a continent, appealing to the masses (by being the first dragon rider since forever) would make everything soooooo much easier.

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What makes you think it would be easier?

Being a Dragon Rider might give prestige in Essos, because of how far a reach Valyria had, but there hasn't been a proper Dragon Rider in Westeros in generations.
The masses will care less about Dragon Riders than they will about our being a Targaryen, the rightful ruler of the Iron Throne by blood, here to depose the Usurper.

Why would the masses care about who had the first Dragon? That seems like a rather pointless distinction to make when there are multiple of them running about. It matters even less when the masses are ruled by a Dragon, he of greater strength and wisdom than even Balerion the Black Dread of Old.

I think you are over-inflating the worth of being a Dragon Rider, the first of which even, in a world where Magic is coming back in full force.

 

[Duesal]

With his current spell selection, I just don't think it is worth learning right now. At 12th level, however, we should definitely learn it.

It's hard to pass up getting him Teleport and Summon Monster V as SLAs right now, IMO.

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That's a sound argument. And I definitely support giving him teleport.

[X] Goldfish

 

[Deliste]

It would be like a hobgoblin having a pet goblin because goblins can also hit people with stuff, even though the hobgoblin is superior in every way.
It just makes much more sense for the Dragons to go to people who can actually make use of them, personally.

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That is a weird example given that is probably the most common way to encounter both Goblins and Hobgoblins, Goblins are the servile goblinoid race and Hobgoblins the LE tyrannical goblinoid race.

The point about the Valryian Dragon is opportunity cost, we could shut down anyone using it as an excuse to be dumb.

We were also perfectly successful in shutting down CR appropriate random encounters on every outing.

The party is all still here right, we all obviously enjoyed being interrupted by avoidable distractions.

Should we crush the rebellion before collecting materials for the second phase of the teleport array or wait until after the full moon to risk less impact on our extra-planar trade deal?

 

[nixter]

First off, "You make it sound like we are about to immediately conquer Westeros lol." Were did you get that from? I specifically said that we have lots of time to find other Valyrian dragons to give away but we can never have the prestige of having the first one.

And secondly, a city does not make a continent, appealing to the masses (by being the first dragon rider since forever) would make everything soooooo much easier.

Click to shrink...

If we take a dragon, it will literally be a useless pet or a vanity item. It will take at least for at least 3-4 years to mature and by the time that it is an army killer or around the level of the drake Richard killed in Braavos; Viserys would be around level 20 or into epic levels. Which means that the dragon would be taken out in less than a round by the enemies that we will face.

 

[iggyfan]

Off topic but is the Archon of Tyrosh still a Rakshasa in disguise right?

 

[Prince Kyros]

What makes you think it would be easier?

Being a Dragon Rider might give prestige in Essos, because of how far a reach Valyria had, but there hasn't been a proper Dragon Rider in Westeros in generations.
The masses will care less about Dragon Riders than they will about our being a Targaryen, the rightful ruler of the Iron Throne by blood, here to depose the Usurper.

Why would the masses care about who had the first Dragon? That seems like a rather pointless distinction to make when there are multiple of them running about. It matters even less when the masses are ruled by a Dragon, he of greater strength and wisdom than even Balerion the Black Dread of Old.

I think you are over-inflating the worth of being a Dragon Rider, the first of which even, in a world where Magic is coming back in full force.

Click to shrink...

Symbolism is extremely important in the medieval age. The keys to being fully accepted as the ruler of westeros is being a targaryen, having one of the targaryen royal swords and being a dragon rider. We should get the best of them: being the oldest eligible Targaryen, having Blackfyre and being the first dragon rider.

 

[Duesal]

Off topic but is the Archon of Tyrosh still a Rakshasa in disguise right?

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Not anymore. We killed the one in charge (damn shame too, we could have gotten grafts), sent the other one to Volantis where it ended up sacrificed to R'hllor.

Current Archon shouldn't be related to those Rakshasa.

 

[Deliste]

If we take a dragon, it will literally be a useless pet or a vanity item. It will take at least for at least 3-4 years to mature and by the time that it is an army killer or around the level of the drake Richard killed in Braavos; Viserys would be around level 20 or into epic levels. Which means that the dragon would be taken out in less than a round by the enemies that we will face.

Click to shrink...

Assuming it matures at the same rate and retains the relatively mundane properties of canon dragons in the original low magic setting.

Our new Lawyer and his friends used their dragons to freeze themselves in time through the great magical calamity that was felt across the planes.

Pretty good for a big lizard.

 

[Diomedea]

Symbolism is extremely important in the medieval age. The keys to being fully accepted as the ruler of westeros is being a targaryen, having one of the targaryen royal swords and being a dragon rider. We should get the best of them: being the oldest eligible Targaryen, having Blackfyre and being the first dragon rider.

Click to shrink...

It's a deliberate choice. We're underlining in the new order it is not dragons, or might of arms that is supreme. It is magic. Our new Empire is based on magic. Our government type is literally described as a magocracy.

 

[Prince Kyros]

If we take a dragon, it will literally be a useless pet or a vanity item. It will take at least for at least 3-4 years to mature and by the time that it is an army killer or around the level of the drake Richard killed in Braavos; Viserys would be around level 20 or into epic levels. Which means that the dragon would be taken out in less than a round by the enemies that we will face.

Click to shrink...

To me, the dragon as a vanity item of viserys is actually more useful than a mount of Vaena, she's never going to be actually useful anyways. By the time she's trained and the dragon has matured everything will curb-stomp her.

 

[Goldfish]

Slightly updated Maelor's level up plan. Retraining Precocious Apprentice would also remove the spell it allowed us to learn, so rather than learn a new 2nd level spell this level, I've got Maelor retaining both of h current 2nd level spells. It works out to him having the normal amount of spells for a Sorcerer of his level.

 

[Raichu1972]

That is a weird example given that is probably the most common way to encounter both Goblins and Hobgoblins, Goblins are the servile goblinoid race and Hobgoblins the LE tyrannical goblinoid race.

The point about the Valryian Dragon is opportunity cost, we could shut down anyone using it as an excuse to be dumb.

We were also perfectly successful in shutting down CR appropriate random encounters on every outing.

The party is all still here right, we all obviously enjoyed being interrupted by avoidable distractions.

Should we crush the rebellion before collecting materials for the second phase of the teleport array or wait until after the full moon to risk less impact on our extra-planar trade deal?

Click to shrink...

The example with the Hobgoblins and Goblins was supposed to highlight the hilarity of the Hobgoblin, superior to the Goblin in every way, using the Goblin as a means of intimidation, when the Hobgoblin is far more intimidating itself.

Anyways, people in Westeros feared the Dragons because they remembered the tales of Aegon's Conquest. The burning of armies, the destruction of castles, those are what the Westerosi feared.
They did not really even fear the dragons themselves, but rather what the dragons could do.

Viserys, as a Dragon (to be), could do everything Valyrian Dragons could and more.

If some lordling decides to get uppity because we don't have a Feral Dragon and that obviously means that we can't do anything to him in his pretty castle, Viserys could easily go fly over there as an Adult Red Dragon and personally burn it to the ground, no magic required.

Now, I doubt that will be necessary, because I still believe all of you are greatly overinflating the value of these Dragons for Viserys, but if necessary we can easily make them fear us as they did Aegon the Conqueror.

 

[iggyfan]

Not anymore. We killed the one in charge (damn shame too, we could have gotten grafts), sent the other one to Volantis where it ended up sacrificed to R'hllor.

Current Archon shouldn't be related to those Rakshasa.

Click to shrink...

Do we have any info on the current Archon?

 

[Duesal]

To me, the dragon as a vanity item of viserys is actually more useful than a mount of Vaena, she's never going to be actually useful anyways.

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That is patently untrue. Valaena is going to be VERY useful. She's a PC and a future dragonrider who's loyal to us. We can send her to take care of minor problems that we don't have time to address but that the common man can stand up against. We can use her to bolster our forces in all major wars.

She's not a full party member, no, but she absolutely isn't useless.

Do we have any info on the current Archon?

Click to shrink...

Not really, no.

 

[Goldfish]

Assuming it matures at the same rate and retains the relatively mundane properties of canon dragons in the original low magic setting.

Our new Lawyer and his friends used their dragons to freeze themselves in time through the great magical calamity that was felt across the planes.

Pretty good for a big lizard.

Click to shrink...

They used the sacrifice of their mature adult, combat-capable dragons as fuel for the ritual. That's not any different than us sacrificing creatures with a lot of HD to power various magical effects.

 

[nixter]

Assuming it matures at the same rate and retains the relatively mundane properties of canon dragons in the original low magic setting.

Our new Lawyer and his friends used their dragons to freeze themselves in time through the great magical calamity that was felt across the planes.

Pretty good for a big lizard.

Click to shrink...

Good point. If the dragon could be used to enhance our casting ability then it maybe it would be worth it.

 

[Prince Kyros]

The example with the Hobgoblins and Goblins was supposed to highlight the hilarity of the Hobgoblin, superior to the Goblin in every way, using the Goblin as a means of intimidation, when the Hobgoblin is far more intimidating itself.

Anyways, people in Westeros feared the Dragons because they remembered the tales of Aegon's Conquest. The burning of armies, the destruction of castles, those are what the Westerosi feared.
They did not really even fear the dragons themselves, but rather what the dragons could do.

Viserys, as a Dragon (to be), could do everything Valyrian Dragons could and more.

If some lordling decides to get uppity because we don't have a Feral Dragon and that obviously means that we can't do anything to him in his pretty castle, Viserys could easily go fly over there as an Adult Red Dragon and personally burn it to the ground, no magic required.

Now, I doubt that will be necessary, because I still believe all of you are greatly overinflating the value of these Dragons for Viserys, but if necessary we can easily make them fear us as they did Aegon the Conqueror.

Click to shrink...

Uppity in medieval times means not paying taxes or somthing, somthing that their lieges can't actually harm them for because it will make other lords uppity. Like I said, we can just 'port to dragonstone and get us another egg, all I'm saying is that the first one be given to Viserys, not that the others shouldn't get any for themselves.

 

[iggyfan]

Uppity in medieval times means not paying taxes or somthing, somthing that their lieges can't actually harm them because it will make other lords uppity.

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Not paying taxes is perfect grounds for imprisonment and worse in medieval times. Look what Tywin did to the Raynes and Tarbecks.

 

[Deliste]

If some lordling decides to get uppity because we don't have a Feral Dragon and that obviously means that we can't do anything to him in his pretty castle, Viserys could easily go fly over there as an Adult Red Dragon and personally burn it to the ground, no magic required.

Click to shrink...

And yet the hobgoblin thing happens all the time, slaves are used to intimidate free men for example. Enough town guards to intimidate a Knight.

Anyway, this hypothetical lord need not give a shit whether or not the Valyrian Dragon increases our threat capacity (it does, if it was around at the Tiamat encounter it could have taken Viserys' place as a grappler and maybe he could have done something interesting in that fight) or matters at all. He cares whether he convince some other idiots that it matters and then leverage that into action, it's an excuse.

He's a speculative investor of disruption and yes potentially war, he doesn't care about the underlying value, only what others perceive.

If you want to know who/how/why someone could or would use this think Littlefinger.

I'm genuinely confused why people keep counter arguing with "we have the power" when it is explicitly not the topic of conversation.

 

[Raichu1972]

Uppity in medieval times means not paying taxes or somthing, somthing that their lieges can't actually harm them because it will make other lords uppity.

Click to shrink...

We totally can though?

If a Lord decides to no longer pay his taxes, first we will go to his direct liege and get him to make the Lord pay his taxes.
If his direct liege refuses to follow our orders, than we pay him a visit courtesy of teleport and ask him politely to follow the orders of his King.

If he still refuses us, well, then we make an example of him.
Getting uppity and breaking the social contract is a big no no, you see.

 

[Sqweaktoy]

Uppity in medieval times means not paying taxes or somthing, somthing that their lieges can't actually harm them because it will make other lords uppity.

Click to shrink...

Which then leads to more burning of castles, and more lands coming under our control until people learn.
The long term plan as I understand it was to phase out the nobility as a powerful class of people anyway, if some idiots want to volunteer to be first in line, then fine by me.

 

[nixter]

To me, the dragon as a vanity item of viserys is actually more useful than a mount of Vaena, she's never going to be actually useful anyways. By the time she's trained and the dragon has matured everything will curb-stomp her.

Click to shrink...

We can't be every where at once, Valeana is going to be a member of a secondary party that we can delegate smaller problems too since the main party has more important targets to go after.

 

[Raichu1972]

And yet the hobgoblin thing happens all the time, slaves are used to intimidate free men for example. Enough town guards to intimidate a Knight.

Anyway, this hypothetical lord need not give a shit whether or not the Valyrian Dragon increases our threat capacity (it does, if it was around at the Tiamat encounter it could have taken Viserys' place as a grappler and maybe he could have done something interesting in that fight) or matters at all. He cares whether he convince some other idiots that it matters and then leverage that into action, it's an excuse.

He's a speculative investor of disruption and yes potentially war, he doesn't care about the underlying value, only what others perceive.

If you want to know who/how/why someone could or would use this think Littlefinger.

I'm genuinely confused why people keep counter arguing with "we have the power" when it is explicitly not the topic of conversation.

Click to shrink...

I don't understand why you and others believe that a Dragon Rider will be seen as more threatening than a Dragon, especially if we show our strength beforehand.

Any fool that can be persuaded into attacking a Dragon can be persuaded into attacking a Dragon Rider, and thus Viserys having the vanity dragon doesn't actually matter.

You know, if you think I do not understand the topic of the conversation, why don't you make it explicit for me?
To make sure we are on the same page and all.

 

[Prince Kyros]

We totally can though?

If a Lord decides to no longer pay his taxes, first we will go to his direct liege and get him to make the Lord pay his taxes.
If his direct liege refuses to follow our orders, than we pay him a visit courtesy of teleport and ask him politely to follow the orders of his King.

If he still refuses us, well, then we make an example of him.
Getting uppity and breaking the social contract is a big no no, you see.

Click to shrink...

Is it worth it though? we can just teleport to dragonstone and get us another egg, all I'm saying is that the first one be givento Viserys, not that the others shouldn't get any for themselves.

 

[Prince Kyros]

I don't understand why you and others believe that a Dragon Rider will be seen as more threatening than a Dragon, especially if we show our strength beforehand.

Any fool that can be persuaded into attacking a Dragon can be persuaded into attacking a Dragon Rider, and thus Viserys having the vanity dragon doesn't actually matter.

You know, if you think I do not understand the topic of the conversation, why don't you make it explicit for me?
To make sure we are on the same page and all.

Click to shrink...

I've been telling you this whole time that combat isn't even the issue here, we want a stable realm and the prestige of being the first dragon rider in generations will help stabilize the realm