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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Prince Sheo said:
People fear the unknown more than anything and fear leads to anger, being seen as a dragon rider foremost rather than a True dragon will generate less hate.
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That makes no sense.

Being a Dragon Rider would not change the fact that he is a True Dragon.
People won't hate him less because he is a Dragon Riding on a Retarded Dragon instead of just a Dragon.

It's obvious I won't change your mind though, so whatever.
 
Raichu1972 said:
So you want for Viserys to never show that he is a Dragon?

Because it seems as though the crux of your argument is: People would fuck with a True Dragon, but not with a Dragon Rider, so Viserys should totally get this useless dragon.
It makes no sense to me. :confused:
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No that is not the crux of my argument.

There are Players and Pawns.

Players that are motivated to dethrone us will use any excuse, indeed multiple excuses.

Pawns will be manipulated with these excuses.

Some excuses work on Pawn A that would not on Pawn B and vice versa.

The elimination of certain excuses may make it so that Pawn C cannot be talked into opposing us even though Pawns A, B and D etc can still be manipulated.

Eliminate as many excuses as possible to deny Players the resources of Pawns which just so happen to be the same resources of our realm.

Pawn C was a clerk in our administration and now will continue to be productive instead of being subverted.

You can't eliminate all dissent, that doesn't mean you should give up entirely. This is also true of the whole "people think we eat babies so we may as well eat babies" argument that somehow persists.
 
Deliste said:
No that is not the crux of my argument.

There are Players and Pawns.

Players that are motivated to dethrone us will use any excuse, indeed multiple excuses.

Pawns will be manipulated with these excuses.

Some excuses work on Pawn A that would not on Pawn B and vice versa.

The elimination of certain excuses may make it so that Pawn C cannot be talked into opposing us even though Pawns A, B and D etc can still be manipulated.

Eliminate as many excuses as possible to deny Players the resources of Pawns which just so happen to be the same resources of our realm.

Pawn C was a clerk in our administration and now will continue to be productive instead of being subverted.

You can't eliminate all dissent, that doesn't mean you should give up entirely. This is also true of the whole "people think we eat babies so we may as well eat babies" argument that somehow persists.
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Exactly, I've always hated that mentality. It's like the Americans "we can't stop gun violence so let's not even try" argument.
 
Deliste said:
No that is not the crux of my argument.

There are players and pawns.

Players that are motivated to dethrone us will use any excuse, indeed multiple excuses.

Pawns will be manipulated with these excuses.

Some excuses work on Pawn A that would not on Pawn B and vice versa.

The elimination of certain excuses may make it so that Pawn C cannot be talked into opposing us even though Pawns A, B and D etc can still be manipulated.

Eliminate as many excuses as possible to deny Players the resources of Pawns which just so happen to be the same resources of our realm.

Pawn C was a clerk in our administration and now will continue to be productive instead of being subverted.

You can't eliminate all dissent, that doesn't mean you should give up entirely. This is also true of the whole "people think we eat babies so we may as well eat babies" argument that somehow persists.
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Now see, there's your problem. You think Pawn C cares about the details. He doesn't. He cares about the simple things, not semantics about dragons. 'He's a sorcerer' will get Pawn C moving if he's devout to the Seven, or not if he isn't. 'He turns into a Dragon, instead of riding one' is just some irrelevant trivia on top, either way. You also think his opinion matters. If they can get access to him but he refuses to cooperate, our real enemies will bend his mind into a pretzel in seconds.

This ridiculously overblown worry assumes we'll advertise the person who is supposed to be our captive hatched a dragon before we're ready to go. We won't. By the time we're going the rumors that some little girl nobody knows much of is the first dragon rider will pale before news like 'Viserys Targaryen in Dragon form showed up and took the Red Keep, just like that.'
 
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065tdsa said:
Now see, there's your problem. You think Pawn C cares about the details. He doesn't. He cares about the simple things, not semantics about dragons. You also think his opinion matters. If they can get access to him but he refuses to cooperate, our enemies will bend his mind into a pretzel in seconds.
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40 Million people just in Westeros.

This is an example of what occurs on a large scale across the realm, many people, many roles, many opportunities, many small actions and pieces of information from many sources who don't even know the others exist.

And no our enemies can't dominate them all.
 
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Deliste said:
40 Million people just in Westeros.

This is an example of what occurs on a large scale across the realm, many people, many roles, many opportunities, many small actions and pieces of information from many sources who don't even know the others exist.
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And how many of them do you think care about semantics regarding dragons, but not about the faith of the Seven? Fact is, any who gives a damn about the first point is already going to be up in arms over the second.

90% of the populace is peasants who won't care about the details beyond 'can he fly around and burn people and castles down like Aegon?'. The answer is yes, and so they'll be satisfied, and try to avoid things like joining an army that's going to get burned to death by us.
 
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065tdsa said:
This ridiculously overblown worry assumes we'll advertise the person who is supposed to be our captive hatched a dragon before we're ready to go. We won't. By the time we're going the rumors that some little girl nobody knows much of is the first dragon rider will pale before news like 'Viserys Targaryen in Dragon form showed up and took the Red Keep, just like that.'
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I don't care that spaghetti sauce stains less badly than ink, it's still fucking up my tablecloth.

So I put down a godsdamned placemat.
 
Deliste said:
40 Million people just in Westeros.

This is an example of what occurs on a large scale across the realm, many people, many roles, many opportunities, many small actions and pieces of information from many sources who don't even know the others exist.

And no our enemies can't dominate them all.
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Your argument is flawed, because just like there are people who will oppose us for not being a dragon rider, there are also people who will oppose us for being a dragon rider.
 
065tdsa said:
Now see, there's your problem. You think Pawn C cares about the details. He doesn't. He cares about the simple things, not semantics about dragons. 'He's a sorcerer' will get Pawn C moving if he's devout to the Seven, or not if he isn't. 'He turns into a Dragon, instead of riding one' is just some irrelevant trivia on top, either way. You also think his opinion matters. If they can get access to him but he refuses to cooperate, our real enemies will bend his mind into a pretzel in seconds.

This ridiculously overblown worry assumes we'll advertise the person who is supposed to be our captive hatched a dragon before we're ready to go. We won't. By the time we're going the rumors that some little girl nobody knows much of is the first dragon rider will pale before news like 'Viserys Targaryen in Dragon form showed up and took the Red Keep, just like that.'
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Look, I want to stack the odds against a person being recruited by our enemies by giving them as little reasons to hate us and as much reasons to love us, being the first dragon rider is one of them. It makes us less strange and more loved, 'cuz all famous Targs in stories rode dragons'.
 
tarrangar said:
Your argument is flawed, because just like there are people who will oppose us for not being a dragon rider, there are also people who will oppose us for being a dragon rider.
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And there are those who would support a woman that wouldn't support a man, better change genders.

It's about taking the best option, it is likely more will be on the side of First Dragon Rider than Not First Dragon Rider so that is the path you should take.
 
Deliste said:
And there are those who would support a woman that wouldn't support a man, better change genders.

It's about taking the best option, it is likely more will be on the side of First Dragon Rider than Not First Dragon Rider so that is the path you should take.
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The boost is too small to make it a priority. We literally have more important things to do than hunting for eggs.
 
065tdsa said:
Do you care about it while your house is on fire? Because a lot of people are going to be worried that their houses might get set on fire. People prioritize.
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Half this argument has involved people saying that our house cannot be set on fire, I've been arguing for not wasting time dealing with their Bs.

If you're now giving the tablecloth perspective to our enemies I've no idea why.
 
[X] Goldfish

Deliste said:
I don't care that spaghetti sauce stains less badly than ink, it's still fucking up my tablecloth.

So I put down a godsdamned placemat.
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But do you put down your strategically-more-useful-elsewhere-also-it-makes-you-seem-greedy-weak-stupid-and-wasteful placemat?
This is not a small thing you are committing to, while it may not be useful for Viserys, a feral dragon is a powerful resource, squandering it for an at best negligible, and more likely actively detrimental PR effect is preposterous.
 
Deliste said:
Half this argument has involved people saying that our house cannot be set on fire, I've been arguing for not wasting time dealing with their Bs.

If you're now giving the tablecloth perspective to our enemies I've no idea why.
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I'm giving the perspective to all those people you are arguing this might sway. I'm saying they have better things to think about than dragon semantics. Like religion, the morality of using magic, and generally self preservation.
 
Sqweaktoy said:
[X] Goldfish


But do you put down your strategically-more-useful-elsewhere-also-it-makes-you-seem-greedy-weak-stupid-and-wasteful placemat?
This is not a small thing you are committing to, while it may not be useful for Viserys, a feral dragon is a powerful resource, squandering it for an at best negligible, and more likely actively detrimental PR effect is preposterous.
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Exept that it's not rare anymore? There are boat-loads of petrified eggs that can now hatch because of magic. Also, it's not only useful for PR because it also boosts the rider. It's a relatively cheap investment to prevent future headaches
 
Sqweaktoy said:
[X] Goldfish


But do you put down your strategically-more-useful-elsewhere-also-it-makes-you-seem-greedy-weak-stupid-and-wasteful placemat?
This is not a small thing you are committing to, while it may not be useful for Viserys, a feral dragon is a powerful resource, squandering it for an at best negligible, and more likely actively detrimental PR effect is preposterous.
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I'm certainly not arguing that Valaena not get a Dragon.

And really it's most likely due to time pressure, turn votes and the threads general love of dragons that the first hatching will be a batch rather than singular even if just to save on the resource investment.
 
Deliste said:
And there are those who would support a woman that wouldn't support a man, better change genders.

It's about taking the best option, it is likely more will be on the side of First Dragon Rider than Not First Dragon Rider so that is the path you should take.
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I wasn't saying that, I was saying I don't believe being the first dragon rider will give us much prestige, certainly not enough to make up for not getting a dragon rider, and that's what would happen, if we give the dragon to Valaena, it will be a mighty beast that she can fight our weaker enemies with, if we take it for ourselves, it will be a pet that very rarely sees any use.
 
tarrangar said:
I wasn't saying that, I was saying I don't believe being the first dragon rider will give us much prestige, certainly not enough to make up for not getting a dragon rider, and that's what would happen, if we give the dragon to Valaena, it will be a mighty beast that she can fight our weaker enemies with, if we take it for ourselves, it will be a pet that very rarely sees any use.
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Deliste said:
I'm certainly not arguing that Valaena not get a Dragon.

And really it's most likely due to time pressure, turn votes and the threads general love of dragons that the first hatching will be a batch rather than singular even if just to save on the resource investment.
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[X] Goldfish
Adhoc vote count started by Deliste on Jan 19, 2018 at 7:43 PM, finished with 141235 posts and 7 votes.
  • [X] Maelor Level Up
    -[X] Class: +1 Eldritch Theurge
    -[X] Skills (4 points): +1 Use Magic Device, +3 Concentration
    -[X] Feat: Fiendish Legacy
    --[X] Retrained Feat: Precocious Apprentice >>> Fiendish Heritage
    -[X] Invocation: Voracious Dispelling
    -[X] Spells:
    --[X] 1st Level: Mage Armor
    --[X] 2nd Level: None (retaining Child of the Dark and Blindness/Deafness despite losing the Precocious Apprentice spell, rather than learning a new spell.)
    [X] Glyra Level Up
    -[X] Class: +1 Spellthief
    -[X] Skills (5 points): +1 Bluff, +1 Disable Device, +1 Hide, +1 Move Silently, +1 Use Magic Device
    [X] Learn the ritual
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Adhoc vote count started by Deliste on Jan 19, 2018 at 7:44 PM, finished with 141236 posts and 8 votes.
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tarrangar said:
I wasn't saying that, I was saying I don't believe being the first dragon rider will give us much prestige, certainly not enough to make up for not getting a dragon rider, and that's what would happen, if we give the dragon to Valaena, it will be a mighty beast that she can fight our weaker enemies with, if we take it for ourselves, it will be a pet that very rarely sees any use.
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Dude, we can easily get more eggs, but we can never have the opportunity to be the first dragon rider other than this.
 
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