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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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... Wait a minute. @DragonParadox, knights as a concept were invented by the Seven -- gods who we happen to be at war with.

Can we name Waymar something else? Something with the equivalent prestige? Or is he deadset on being a knight?
 
Artemis1992 said:
He can have the power to equal the greatest heroes and horrors the world has seen.
He already has our friendship and we'd go through with any request that is important to him, as just seen with the lady in Volantis.
He can have the Vale or part of it once it's conquered.

He can have the damn world and wants an empty title?
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That attitude is very much Chaotic Neutral. Waymar is Lawfully Good, he values, even treasures, the oaths and titles that make up the warp and weft of feudal society.
 
DragonParadox said:
So you do not think what he has done so far warrants a knighthood? That's the crux of the matter, you have to give him some recognition if you want fealty in full. It's what he was raised to expect.



Visions of creepy old men who live in trees are nice and all, but Bloodraven can't take the final step. Viserys has to do that.
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Whether or not I feel he should be knight isn't the issue. We had a vote on that ages ago and convinced by a devil decided to wait. I'm just hung up on why it needs to be some new, meaningless, knighthood. He's had years of desire and work to be a knight like his father and grandfather and great-grandfather, etc. That weight of ages has meaning and value to it, and its that the meaning and recognition of him as one of the, that's what he wants.

What do you mean Bloodraven and Viserys doing anything? The important part is what Waymar did when he called us his king, that is a declaration of fealty, if informally given.
 
[] Azel

I don't care much about the order, but about knighting him. The guy deserves that.

I'm torn about the new order or not, but I'm going to bandwagon in any vote that gives some recognition to Waymar.
 
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This is exactly what we wanted to enable by the previous vote. An option to promote the best and brightest out of guild control and to direct, royal control.
The guild is supposed to be our containment structure for low-level mages and craftmonkeys. The school offers research postings for the cranial casters. This order would be for our martial casters like Waymar, the future glaive-locks and their ilk.

This is vertical mobility for useful persons.
 
Mormont said:
Whether or not I feel he should be knight isn't the issue. We had a vote on that ages ago and convinced by a devil decided to wait. I'm just hung up on why it needs to be some new, meaningless, knighthood. He's had years of desire and work to be a knight like his father and grandfather and great-grandfather, etc. That weight of ages has meaning and value to it, and its that the meaning and recognition of him as one of the, that's what he wants.

What do you mean Bloodraven and Viserys doing anything? The important part is what Waymar did when he called us his king, that is a declaration of fealty, if informally given.
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  1. Who do you think is going to knight him, an exile in a foreign land if not Viserys? It's hardly unprecedented either Daemon Blackfyre was knighted at around the same age.
  2. The reason things came to ahead not is the guild and the others getting formal recognition, recognition Waymar cannot bear to accept for himself.
  3. He declared fealty to you, or at leas the intent. Now ask yourself what did Viserys declare to him...
Duesal said:
In that case he'd definitely appreciate being the first of any such order.

Still though, the irony. Magic-wielding knights against the Seven. :p
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Look at is this way even Brynden Rivers technically has a Ser before his name, for whatever it's worth.
 
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Keep in mind that he was shunted away from his squiredom because he had magic and the Vale knights wanted to hang him for that. Those thousands of years of tradition are meaningless when we have to break a core tenant of the faith it's attached to just to let Waymar live, let alone knight him.
 
[X] Azel

This works for me. I don't have issue with there being an order of magic using knights. I believe throughout history, there have been knightly orders with all sorts of specialties, from combat, to protection, to caring for the sick and injured.

For now we might only have a single order of mage-knights, but that could expand in the years to come. When we have a Valyrian dragon air force, we might have an order of Dragon Knights. We might create an order of knights specifically dedicated to investigating the abuses of magic and combating dangerous creatures, a national version of the Silver Eye. Duties, privileges, and titles for various orders would vary accordingly.

Let's get Waymar in on the ground floor, so to speak, as our first Eldritch Knight.
 
[X] I think it would be fair that nobles that have sworn fealty to me may learn and wield magic as a guildmember would. After all such an oath is just as binding as a guild-charter and more so for an honorable man or woman.
-[X] Keep it unrelated to knighthood.
-[X] "That said you have stood by side and have been a help when few others were even willing to acknowledge me. It is past time that I reward such fealty. And you shall have it tomorrow in the godswood."
--[X] Gather your court to the godswood and knight him with you own hand in the sight of gods and men in recognition for his service and loyalty.

@Tomcost @Artemis1992 this look like a good way to both formalize his position like he wants without creating a weird, new magicy knightly order thing?
@DragonParadox Makes some more sense that way, thanks for the info. Still don't like this idea though.
 
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The sheer irony of knighting him by the rites of a faith that wants to kill him under a tree dedicated to gods where they nearly succeeded...
 
Mormont said:
@Chulupey any hope I can convince you to switch so we avoid creating this weird magical pseudo-knighthood thing?
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What's your problem with establishing a knightly order? You seem to be all for knighthood, so what's the issue?

You implicitly want to let any future martial casters to rot in the guild since regular Westeros knights will never take a magical squire.
 
[X] Azel
do we get to choose the honorific? we could go with the generic "Ser", use it as a chance to introduce "Sir" (and confusion into the minds of everyone, readers included), or maybe something else? (Darth *cough * cough).
i think its important to make a clear distinction between seven ordered knights and mage knights, though a few people could have both.
we could have Knightly houses, and Warmage houses if things go rights, perfect way to rise some mages to nobles.
we need some valyrian word meaning spell-banner or something like that.
Edit: if we call them Warmages it could bring all kinds of fun with Waymar.
Waymar the Warmage warred in warrens, when war was weaving, Waymas was waitin.. ans so on and so on.
 
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Guys. This isn't "weird pseudo-knighthood". This is a knightly order. A organisation of unlanded knights. This is a perfectly normal thing.
The only difference is the big "mages welcome!" sign above the entrance.

Organising our Warmages is another kettle of fish. One I would greatly enjoy to postpone until the need comes up.
 
Redium said:
Third Of His Name.

Our Viserys Targaryen is preceded by Viserys I, who was responsible for the Dance of Dragons by the choice of his heir, and Viserys II, who took over from Baelor the Befuddled and was the father of Aegon the Unworthy.
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The charter is intentionally signed as King in the Deep not the King of the Seven kingdoms. Viserys is aware he does not sit on the Iron Throne.
 
Azel said:
Guys. This isn't "weird pseudo-knighthood". This is a knightly order. A organisation of unlanded knights. This is a perfectly normal thing.
The only difference is the big "mages welcome!" sign above the entrance.

Organising our Warmages is another kettle of fish. One I would greatly enjoy to postpone until the need comes up.
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but knighthood in planetos is interwoven with the faith of the seven, there are no "knightly orders".
 
das_slash said:
but knighthood in planetos is interwoven with the faith of the seven, there are no "knightly orders".
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Point. Axing the Seven and making it secular is rather important.

Edit: Secular meaning "we don't care about faith and neither should you" and not "thou shall be Atheist".
To be clearly defined later. I have enough ideas, but not the time.

The code of chivalry and conduct can stay with some minor adjustments in the light of seculatization.
 
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Azel said:
Point. Axing the Seven and making it secular is rather important.
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But we are going to use the knightly traditions anyway? we should suggest the basics of an order if they dont come naturally to Waymar, adding a "of the X" to all knights belonging to the order, and a shared Heraldy. kind of like the kingsguard, but with knighthood being granted on joining the order.
edit: faceless'd
 
Azel said:
What's your problem with establishing a knightly order? You seem to be all for knighthood, so what's the issue?

You implicitly want to let any future martial casters to rot in the guild since regular Westeros knights will never take a magical squire.
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The issue is tieing the knighthood to the magic. Can we make knights? Yes. Can we ennoble people, including mages? Yes. Okay why must we entangle the ideas. Let one be one and the other be the other where they overlap, like with Waymar, he is both. Ven Diagrams are a thing, and he's at the middle of this one. Any future mages we have don't need to be knights, if they impress us that much ennoble them. If they don't impress us, then why reward them at all?

Azel said:
Guys. This isn't "weird pseudo-knighthood". This is a knightly order. A organisation of unlanded knights. This is a perfectly normal thing.
The only difference is the big "mages welcome!" sign above the entrance.

Organising our Warmages is another kettle of fish. One I would greatly enjoy to postpone until the need comes up.
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das_slash said:
but knighthood in planetos is interwoven with the faith of the seven, there are no "knightly orders".
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There are knightly orders. At the current point in the timeline there exists exactly two. First the Kingsuard that we all know about, Second the Order of the Green Hand created by the Gardener Kings and now only claimed by the Manderlys, and there was once the Warrior's Sons. That's it for knightly orders. 1 Created by our ancestors and 2 destroyed by them. The idea of a knightly order as we have them is a foreign thing that has no place in Planetos.
 
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