A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[Crake]

Makes sense to me. So they would know pretty much everything that 13 year old Viserys knew, but Jack and Shit about what he learned after he first got high grade divination wards.

But the point is probably moot since the foundation of this argument is explaining how the world falls apart when people can freely divine the likely outcomes of certain actions and how "hard barriers to divination" hardly matter if you can use an unlimited amount of it any point before then, if you logically extend precipitous action taking place by interested parties before those barriers can be erected.

Personally, I don't agonize over background details in the same way. I just assume A) Chaos theory dictates divination isn't perfect anyway and slight deviations will cause different readings as time goes on.

And B) The thread often had different priorities on what to focus on compared to moves made by different factions in the course of the quest. The reverse is likely true of others. Even if you know an enemy is up to something, it might just not be worthwhile or practical to deal with it immediately, which is often what stopped us until we could place our undivided attention toward it.

I just see some salty people salting over past salt. Nothing to be impressed by.

 

[Goldfish]

I hate that I have to write this and I hate that it might end up sounding accusatory and I want you guys to know that you have been my support though some really hard times so it is not my intention to make anyone feel bad about what they have posted or how they might have debated. This is not my attempt to pass judgement on anyone, except maybe myself. That said.

I feel like I am trying to patch a sinking ship, like I have made the quest too big, like I have promised too much and now I cannot deliver, like all the attempts to make things more even, more coherent, just strip away more of the magic and make the world narrower and poorer. All the meta arguments are not like we used to have them, they are not sort of friendly brainstorming, it is like we are fighting over the world, over what is fair and what works or should work or can work.

I no longer trust myself to fix this and that is a horrible thing to have to type out.

There is nothing I would love more than a time machine and chance to sit down 2016 me and sit hi down and make him do more world building, more planning, but I did not do it and now we are here arguing vitriolically about spells and metaphysics.

Click to shrink...

Promise too much? Fail to deliver? Dude, if you never write another word for ASWAH, you've got to know that you absolutely crushed it with this quest. You have gone far above and beyond what any reasonable person could expect and given us more than five years of awesome interactive entertainment. Whatever else happens, remember that!

For my part, I apologize for contributing any additional frustration or difficulty with adapting the quest to the latest major system change. It's never been my intention to cause any trouble.

If ASWAH needs to be out in the back burner or even paused for the foreseeable future, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would enjoy reading more From Hell's Heart.

 

[DragonParadox]

I am not going to say anything definite but I am seriously considering writing an epilogue and wrapping up ASWAH. This is not the sort of state I should make that decision in so I am going to wait until I have calmed down, but yeah this is where I am at right now. Instead of getting excited and in the zone when I write a chapter for the quest I have to wonder, will this thing upset someone, will I have to argue over this other thing? Ok if so what am I going to say?

Like I rolled up the Undying lore, looked at my notes on them, written more than a year ago and then went into a spiral of doubt about what I could and could not fit in there now so I chickened out, looked at Qarth saw 'water problem' in one of my notes on the city and decided to write that up... and then that blew up.

 

[Speed53066]

[X] Use High level magic to help bridge the gap (risks unrest and conspiracies)

Looking at this situation, it seems that magic is bridging the gap of high-level technology for a macroscale. Like creating or transporting more water to a Droughted zone, so it should be fine in the long run though full of unrest for the very short term.

 

[DragonParadox]

If ASWAH needs to be out in the back burner or even paused for the foreseeable future, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would enjoy reading more From Hell's Heart.

Click to shrink...

There is no earthly way I can pause this quest. It is too big and takes up too much time to keep even as straight as I am right now. It will either keep updating or it will be wrapped up.

Thank you for the words of support

 

[Azel]

@Crake, the point of the matter is that this here is a perfect mirror of that situation. A few people are very loudly rejecting a ruling out of aggrieved entitlement and they leave DP and me with having to somehow try and patch that sinking ship, because they can't take "no" for an answer.

And to make it explicit: @Goldfish, you conduct here was apalling and if this was my table round, you would have been shown the door for this. I've had it with your attempts to weasel around the wards already and this is just another time when you are making it actively harder and unenjoyable to do anything for this quest, because you don't like that something doesn't work the way you want it to. The DM has the right to make whatever ruling he deems necessary. If you can not accept that, I do not see how you expect this quest to work.

 

[egoo]

I think, all things considered, you've done as well as you could've, @DragonParadox.
Look at the size of the quest.
It's downright unreasonable.
The fact that you still managed a decent story throughout these five years, with (some) lows and (lots) of highs, is an achievement on its own.

Now, I've personally lost the will to actively participate. Burnout happens.
But, even the 5-6 main people pushing things forward aside, you still have dozens of readers, and even some lurkers coming out of woodworks every now and again.
I can't honestly see this as a 'dying' community.
Not a big one, admittedly, as the entry point is pretty unreasonable. ...And perhaps not 'thriving' either, but it's alive and more-or-less well.

If you feel burnt out on arguments? On all of the old systems and decisions that came to be huge fuckups in this day?
Fucking take a break.
You barely ever did throughout the five years, but whenever you did, it was for the better.

Take a week off.
Think stuff through.
Discuss stuff with Azel, cut whole swathes of old decisions and rulings, if necessary to make things work better.
Old decisions aren't always good decisions to keep.
Retcon away.
Maybe establish harsher rules on arguing with QMs, as you've always been way too lenient with the players and to great detriment to the quest at times. I was at large fault for a lot of fuckuppery that really hurt the overall story and everyone's experience, to boot.

I have immense respect for you and Azel. Five years in, and still trying to make thins thing work, and managing that even.
I have no less respect for all other players who stuck to the quest as even I left. You guys rock.

What I'd really like to see is everyone arguing Azel less though, at this point it's downright trite and always ends in everyone being salty, and the quest being hurt.
He kinda has a point in (most) things he argues. Let the QM do the QMing.

peace

 

[Crake]

Yep. Sucks to suck.

I don't really have anything to contribute to this discussion, as my engagement is low. I don't know how much that has to do with RL keeping me busy and this quest formatting itself in the manner that it does, but let me identify some of the problems that I can see.

Part of the issue is that this quest has always, at least culturally, been a "D&D mechanics quest". I think it's fine if you basically say "this is a narrative quest now". But that should be your hotkey response, not one you hem and haw around until finally busting it out when pressed on an inconsistency between the thread as of two years ago and the thread today.

The other problem I can see is a narrative quest should have a new thread and probably a new metaplot, as this is also largely a sandbox thread. There's an overplot, but ASWAH has always had a lot of agency for players.

@Azel has run a handful of quests, but just observing his style both in this thread and elsewhere, he likes to curate levels of player agency so that they do no clash with how he wants to interpret a setting and to a lesser degree story.

That's also fine... but it deserves its own thread. ASWAH as I see it is culturally full of people in personal bunkers with strong opinions on pen and paper RPGs. The problem with shifting into a fully narrative approach is that people have pre-existing attachments to characters and story direction and you are basically telling them to get lost when they buck one too many times.

That's not heartening to read about.

 

[DragonParadox]

This has gotten too big and too personal at the same time. Like I do not think we as people would be arguing about this stuff this strongly if there wasn't all the history here, all the expectations I helped build up and which I now cannot pay up because I did not catch it in time, because I did not do enough of the behind the scenes stuff. I could definitely to better now, but I no longer think I can do better here and with this.

You know it is funny I started this as a writing exercise and it has worked very well as that, but I stayed for the people I found here.

So now I have to ask if, as seems increasingly likely, I wrap up this quest, would you guys have any interest in the next one? I really do enjoy your company in spite of all the trouble we have had.

 

[egoo]

Sure, a start from zero would be fun.
Trying to read through all the stuff that happened since Westeros takeover isn't
I've had fun with your quest and the people here alike.

I dont think I have a right to argue either for or against ending the quest here, however.
I'm not an active player.

I used to argue hard on such matters in the before, but... well.

 

[Crake]

This has gotten too big and too personal at the same time. Like I do not think we as people would be arguing about this stuff this strongly if there wasn't all the history here, all the expectations I helped build up and which I now cannot pay up because I did not catch it in time, because I did not do enough of the behind the scenes stuff. I could definitely to better now, but I no longer think I can do better here and with this.

You know it is funny I started this as a writing exercise and it has worked very well as that, but I stayed for the people I found here.

So now I have to ask if, as seems increasingly likely, I wrap up this quest, would you guys have any interest in the next one? I really do enjoy your company in spite of all the trouble we have had.

Click to shrink...

I think you need to manage your own expectations better before worrying about other people if you make another quest, which is generally the only thing you struggle with, not writing, not even world building.

If you have a quest with too many moving parts and too much in the way of mechanics, you start to have issues as small issues become clumps of small issues (which is basically a big Katamari ball of issues).

Tl;Dr-- you need to know exactly what you want to write and have all the components involved in that (narrative, setting, mechanics) on lock, to the degree you don't need to add or change much afterward and there's little need for experimentation that ASWAH often went through to patch issues.

 

[DragonParadox]

Sure, a start from zero would be fun.
Trying to read through all the stuff that happened since Westeros takeover isn't
I've had fun with your quest and the people here alike.

I dont think I have a right to argue either for or against ending the quest here, however.
I'm not an active player.

I used to argue hard on such matters in the before, but... well.

Click to shrink...

No, stop that, you do have a right to express your opinion, even if you do not think your past in this quest entitles you to one I do no care. If someone who just found this quest yesterday wants to chine in I would love to hear from them so there.

 

[Annatar]

Ay I'm a lurker more than anything but if you do need to end this quest or move on to something else that's totally fine with me!

Hell maybe if you do I can actually participate more

But for serious, I can tell this is taking a toll on you and Azel and whatever you need to keep that from being a permanent thing is what you need to do.

 

[Takesis]

So now I have to ask if, as seems increasingly likely, I wrap up this quest, would you guys have any interest in the next one? I really do enjoy your company in spite of all the trouble we have had.

Click to shrink...

Can a halted empire building happen and do a from ground up? Like Imperium becomes backgrounded, this thread kept and we can return to it from time to time.

-Jon Targaryen, princeling, Imperial student, ...brother. The quest to rescue a loved one's soul begins!

 

[Azel]

@Azel has run a handful of quests, but just observing his style both in this thread and elsewhere, he likes to curate levels of player agency so that they do no clash with how he wants to interpret a setting and to a lesser degree story.

That's also fine... but it deserves its own thread. ASWAH as I see it is culturally full of people in personal bunkers with strong opinions on pen and paper RPGs. The problem with shifting into a fully narrative approach is that people have pre-existing attachments to characters and story direction and you are basically telling them to get lost when they buck one too many times.

That's not heartening to read about.

Click to shrink...

I mean, yeah. Ultimately, that's the issue here. The thread has run in the same direction for years and steadily bled active players for it, as everything focused on D&D mechanics and meandering slice of life snippets about people only a selected few die-hard readers even knew about. The result was 3 people actively writing votes at all. There were two people talking back and forth about spells. Two people curating a sprawling messes of charts and tables, containing information that nobody cared about.

The idea was to refocus, trim and simplify. That's literally why I'm back at helping DP. I very openly talked about this in thread and in PMs with him. I don't think I have at any point made a secret out of this.

I genuinely thought that the people whose particular desires had been met to an unhealthy degree over the last years would be willing to accept that chance, since they seemed fine with it, but apparently not.

What I do have to say though is that a second ASWAH thread makes no sense. It would still be the same people with the same problems, and maybe a few new readers who quickly lose interest when it becomes apparent that they can't meaningfully contribute due to not knowing the years of backstory necessary to do so. So... there is that...

 

[DragonParadox]

So here are my ideas for quests I would have fun writing and I think you would have fun reading and that would scratch the same itch as ASWAH in one way or another. All are original quests because I promised myself that I would do more original writing... I think it was two years ago. Damn it has been a long time

Idea Number 1: Ice Age Pathfinder, you get to play as a member of an ice age tribe in a low magic setting where most of your foes will be animals and other hominids, survive, thrive, build your own tribe, hell maybe you will start up the Neolithic revolution early, maybe yours will be a tale that lives though the ages to amaze generations yet unborn

Idea Number 2: Monstrous Humanoid Quest, you get to start out as a tribe of starter mooks at the borders of a vast unknown civilization, can you be more than a speed-bump in someone else's story

Idea number 3: the Lost Legion in a fantasy world, hell if it is good enough for Jim Butcher to prove a point is is good enough for me, you woould start out with the advantages of being the Romans, but your understanding me magic would be lacking

If one of these interest you feel free to chine in

 

[Destrark]

I'd almost certainly read whatever the next quest you do is. Honestly as much as I like seeing the Imperium grow further, paint the map and battle Hell etc. It feels like the original 'main story' from the premise is complete. We won. The Lannisters were utterly thrashed and we've taken over two (or at least 1 and half with some extras) continents and various extra-planar holdings. The original enemy in the rival Great Houses of Westeros have been beaten, co-opted, allied with or un-named. We've reached the stage where our only enemies are huge outsider/aberration empires or actual Gods/Godlike-creatures. Which is a bit much to expect from a quest based on D&D 3.5 as setting rules (like how magic works for the latest example), then add-ed on, rebuilt, retconned for inconsistencies etc over a period of 5 years with multiple daily updates throughout that period.

EDIT: I'd definitely read the Ice Age Pathfinder quest.

 

[egoo]

No, stop that, you do have a right to express your opinion, even if you do not think your past in this quest entitles you to one I do no care. If someone who just found this quest yesterday wants to chine in I would love to hear from them so there.

Click to shrink...

Not really what I meant.
In the past, I've been so used to the quest as a part of my routine, that I made objectively worse experience for everyone by actively egging you on to persist through the problems instead of tackling them. And I've actively drew on pity, to try and manipulate everyone into continuing, becasue 3-year-ago me was a fucktard.

I feel bad this is happening. It's as any other salt I've seen in these 4.5 years of playing.
Like nothing was achieved through this time.
Sure, the exact causes change every time, but at the core is players doing bad faith arguments, azel being blunt, and you being too permissive with rulings because you're just too kind for your own good sometimes.

And I feel bad for leaving too, because I can't help but think I could've egged everyone on to be more reasonable, so this wouldn't have been the state we find ourselves in.

But, fuck it.
I refuse to bind myself to a sunken cost fallacy any more, and as I resolved to not play WoW anymore and deleted the account, I refuse to make anyone else suffer salt in this thread just because I feel bad when stuff I've invested so much time in "falls apart".
If you and Azel feel like this cannot reasonably be salvaged (and consistently improved from now on) - then end it.

I'll have fun in whatever you guys cook up next.
Or the Hell's Heart, although I'd have to actually read nearly all of it to have context.

 

[Artemis1992]

So now I have to ask if, as seems increasingly likely, I wrap up this quest, would you guys have any interest in the next one? I really do enjoy your company in spite of all the trouble we have had.

Click to shrink...

I told you some years ago I'd be happy to read the next one, I stick with that.

Just do what Crake said, figure out what you want to write and how to do it, then do it.
Even if you want to risk another sandbox-quest like this, that's perfectly fine and can propably work.
Or if you want to limit the players to less detailed plans like many QMs on this site do and fill in all the bits that make the character's finer points yourself, that's fine too.
Same for the scope, wether you want to be on the streets or change the world, or slowly grow from one to the other.

All can work, you are writing great stuff, just think what you want for a while before stress-writing the start of the next quest with barely more than a good idea and some enthusiasm.

 

[Evaunit02mark1]

Idea Number 2: Monstrous Humanoid Quest, you get to start out as a tribe of starter mooks at the borders of a vast unknown civilization, can you be more than a speed-bump in someone else's story

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't mind something like this. I have a soft spot for Goblin quests and things of that nature. The ones that aren't you know, "those" kind, anyway.

Also while I'll feel bad if this gets wrapped up, because lets face it this quest has been a part of my daily routine for years at this point, if you feel the need to put it up then I say do what's best for you.

I'm here for your writing after all, hell we all know how Viserys would have ended up without it.

 

[DragonParadox]

In case it is not clear, all the quests would be nice solid Pathfinder 1 system even as they are original worlds. I do need something to anchor me still before the vast emptiness of the page

 

[Crake]

I mean, yeah. Ultimately, that's the issue here. The thread has run in the same direction for years and steadily bled active players for it, as everything focused on D&D mechanics and meandering slice of life snippets about people only a selected few die-hard readers even knew about. The result was 3 people actively writing votes at all. There were two people talking back and forth about spells. Two people curating a sprawling messes of charts and tables, containing information that nobody cared about.

The idea was to refocus, trim and simplify. That's literally why I'm back at helping DP. I very openly talked about this in thread and in PMs with him. I don't think I have at any point made a secret out of this.

I genuinely thought that the people whose particular desires had been met to an unhealthy degree over the last years would be willing to accept that chance, since they seemed fine with it, but apparently not.

What I do have to say though is that a second ASWAH thread makes no sense. It would still be the same people with the same problems, and maybe a few new readers who quickly lose interest when it becomes apparent that they can't meaningfully contribute due to not knowing the years of backstory necessary to do so. So... there is that...

Click to shrink...

I don't really mean a second thread for the same quest. ASWAH is effectively a dead quest.

The main thrust of my argument is 1) DM style compatibility and 2) the functional impossibility of the previous play style rendering this into a narrative-genre quest instead of a mechanics-heavy genre quest.

Which means it should be retired and a new project should be worked on.

I argue this because in all sincerity I don't see old players being able to do much more than muddle or twiddle thumbs or generally express some level of dissatisfaction with how things are going, or alternatively new players cannot participate as they are effectively blocked by the previous investment required to do their participation buy-in now.

 

[Artemis1992]

Can a halted empire building happen and do a from ground up? Like Imperium becomes backgrounded, this thread kept and we can return to it from time to time.

-Jon Targaryen, princeling, Imperial student, ...brother. The quest to rescue a loved one's soul begins!

Click to shrink...

Not that, never that.
A new quest in this setting, not ASOIAF, but ASWAH, can only be loaded up with the same issues as the last one. And far quicker at that.

Any attempt at a low-level quest in this setting will always come down to old players not accepting why things are happening as they are. We, IC, have never send an appropriate group to face any challenge, we have always tried to keep the deck stacked massivly in our favor.
The first time we run into issues with any Jon-, Joran-, Mia- or whoever-quest there will be arguments what VIserys would not just send more people, or burn the whole area, or whatever. A quest with unlimited backing and ressources is no fun, a quest without it would not work for someone in Viserys' service.

 

[T_of_A]

I genuinely thought that the people whose particular desires had been met to an unhealthy degree over the last years would be willing to accept that chance, since they seemed fine with it, but apparently not.

Click to shrink...

This isn't very fair. I'm 100% on board with the simplification, like the latest changes, and hope this quest continues.
I just don't think that this latest crisis is a very good choice. What next, "is this destitute noble lying to us" as a decision point ? Lack of water isn't a huge problem in D&D.

Regarding the possible quests: they all seem unconfortably open-ended. Would they at least have immediate early antagonists and hooks for readers? I'll follow because I liked this quest, but I'll admit that if I'd seen anyone else give me those pitches I wouldn't have investigated them (except maybe the Lost Legion one).

 

[Crake]

Regarding the possible quests: they all seem unconfortably open-ended. Would they at least have immediate early antagonists and hooks for readers? I'll follow because I liked this quest, but I'll admit that if I'd seen anyone else give me those pitches I wouldn't have investigated them (except maybe the Lost Legion one).

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's my main issue. I demand immediate, compelling plot hooks and stuff that gets me invested with my foot in the door, or I could care less about any of these characters.

Why do I care about some tribe of primitives on the edge of survival uplifting themselves? I've read a bunch of content kinda like that, but it is generally a side-show to the character drama occurring within it. It can't propel a quest on its own merit, it's more the playdoh that forms the backdrop to it.