If the melee-specced Dragon that can kill an arbitrary number of salamanders or fire giants as long as he is not under artillery fire doesn't matter, that sounds more like a problem with the system than working as intended.

But accepting that, there should still be a reasonable chance that our enemies try something with PC-infiltrators and then at least we need our own PCs here. As seen with our own wardstone-theft, mooks can't stop us.
Removing the need for people to understand the peculiarities of 50+ PC-grade characters that appear on the screen once every few months, know by heart 100+ obscure spells from 3.5 and Pathfinder, and have detailed knowledge of 200+ things in the Bestiarium to make a simple military vote is very much the intention of the system.
 
Removing the need for people to understand the peculiarities of 50+ PC-grade characters that appear on the screen once every few months, know by heart 100+ obscure spells from 3.5 and Pathfinder, and have detailed knowledge of 200+ things in the Bestiarium to make a simple military vote is very much the intention of the system.
Aside from the mechanical resolution of your new warfare, there are still PC-fights happening, even if their impact is limited?

Honestly it feels like this makes things worse rather than better, since now we have to know your system and still keep the PCs in mind for when it doesn't apply.

They can, you just won in the raid. Put enough people with force weapons on the job and they will chew through Amrelath's armor and kill him. PCs work best where they can apply their concentration of force fast and get out, they do not work to change the effect of a large scale grinding battle where the enemy has what you might consider to be 'arbitrary' numbers of mooks to throw at you. That said yes PCs can help protect against assassination of the leadership if the efreeti try it.
There are spells for that though. Scintillating Scales for example, makes Orb of Force cannons hardly better than common bows.
 
Last edited:
Aside from the mechanical resolution of your new warfare, there are still PC-fights happening, even if their impact is limited?

Honestly it feels like this makes things worse rather than better, since now we have to know your system and still keep the PCs in mind for when it doesn't apply.
Considering that all other battle plans are exclusively made by Goldfish, if my system is understood and actually used by no more than two people, I would still have succeeded in making the quest more accessible. It's that bad.
There are spells for that though. Scintillating Scales for example, makes Orb of Force cannons hardly better than common bows.
Dispel Magic. Use splash weapons that do damage on non-direct hits. Etc.
 
Aside from the mechanical resolution of your new warfare, there are still PC-fights happening, even if their impact is limited?

Yes, I am not keeping those sheets around to look pretty, that said I do think @Azel has hit the nail on the head when it comes to player engagement with the system. Making it clear that large scale military conflict is not affected by specific PCs being present will help create a separation and I hope make people who are not so deep into D&D vote and debate on this stuff.

That way the PCs can do what they do best, small scale skirmishes, raiding for ancient secrets and what not while the armies can do what they do best, which is fight wars.

Take it from someone who has tried really really hard D&D combat does not scale well for mass combat and major battles. The amount of fudging going on in the Sarnor campaign....

Yeah let's avoid that in the future and keep everyone to what they do best.
 
Yes, I am not keeping those sheets around to look pretty, that said I do think @Azel has hit the nail on the head when it comes to player engagement with the system. Making it clear that large scale military conflict is not affected by specific PCs being present will help create a separation and I hope make people who are not so deep into D&D vote and debate on this stuff.

That way the PCs can do what they do best, small scale skirmishes, raiding for ancient secrets and what not while the armies can do what they do best, which is fight wars.

Take it from someone who has tried really really hard D&D combat does not scale well for mass combat and major battles. The amount of fudging going on in the Sarnor campaign....

Yeah let's avoid that in the future and keep everyone to what they do best.
It's just hard to guess when PCs might be useful then and when and where not.


Like here, if the Sultan sends a small group then Tyene might be vital to foil an assassination or a sabotage, but if He sends a fleet then Tyene might die without even being able to contribute or teleport out.

It makes PCs helpless to the vagaries of war in a way that no over-CR monster could. That'snot reallyan effect I'm happy with.
 
It's just hard to guess when PCs might be useful then and when and where not.


Like here, if the Sultan sends a small group then Tyene might be vital to foil an assassination or a sabotage, but if He sends a fleet then Tyene might die without even being able to contribute or teleport out.

It makes PCs helpless to the vagaries of war in a way that no over-CR monster could. That'snot reallyan effect I'm happy with.

Ah I see the problem now. Tyene is not really helpless in the face of an army, she is just not able to meaningfully contribute in winning. She can run away just fine, chasing down a high level PC with an army is a fool's errand.
 
It's just hard to guess when PCs might be useful then and when and where not.


Like here, if the Sultan sends a small group then Tyene might be vital to foil an assassination or a sabotage, but if He sends a fleet then Tyene might die without even being able to contribute or teleport out.

It makes PCs helpless to the vagaries of war in a way that no over-CR monster could. That'snot reallyan effect I'm happy with.
The flip side of "armies matter because PC's can't arbitrarily roflstomp them" is "PC's can die in a battle". That's inevitable.
Ah I see the problem now. Tyene is not really helpless in the face of an army, she is just not able to meaningfully contribute in winning. She can run away just fine, chasing down a high level PC with an army is a fool's errand.
Not quite. If she is corned while under wards, she is dead.

People in war zones can die.
 
Ah I see the problem now. Tyene is not really helpless in the face of an army, she is just not able to meaningfully contribute in winning. She can run away just fine, chasing down a high level PC with an army is a fool's errand.
These are islands.
If she can't teleport she't need a lot of luck to fly or swim away somehow.
Some true-sighted shipgunner could simply end her.

It's not that I have a problem that PCs can die, just that they could die without a real fight.
 
Not quite. If she is corned while under wards, she is dead.

People in war zones can die.

Tyene is still an infiltrator, she could kill and replace a enemy soldier and get out from under the ward by stealth, or worst comes to worst she could kill herself knowing that she will be resurrected so long as she is not soul captured

These are islands.
If she can't teleport she't need a lot of luck to fly or swim away somehow.
Some true-sighted shipgunner could simply end her.

It's not that I have a problem that PCs can die, just that they could die without a real fight.

She would still get 'a real fight' as in there would be rolls for her escape, rolls to keep herself from being cornered, but as Azel says if she is cornered army trumps individual hero. It basically has to be that way or the system stops making sense.
 
These are islands.
If she can't teleport she't need a lot of luck to fly or swim away somehow.
Some true-sighted shipgunner could simply end her.

It's not that I have a problem that PCs can die, just that they could die without a real fight.
I'd consider a war to be a perfectly real fight. Your ur-problem, which nobody will ever be able to fix, is that you think PCs should dominate everything, and armies be just window dressing for the setting flavor.
 
Tyene is still an infiltrator, she could kill and replace a enemy soldier and get out from under the ward by stealth, or worst comes to worst she could kill herself knowing that she will be resurrected so long as she is not soul captured
You are making it sound as if she definitely would get away though, which is not the case. Chance? Yes. Certainty? No.
 
For anyone who thinks the change is jarring consider that there are still things PC can do which armies cannot do as well. You can't send a Gravhjamer to steal Wardstones or explore the lost temples of Sothoryos, or unravel the mysteries of Winter. That is what PCs are for and nothing in the military system takes that away.
 
I can kinda see the argument where one main character doesn't matter compared with the thousands of other people of equal strength and skill.

However these cases aren't equal in strength and skill at all. Plus, there should be a way to count bonuses from generals. Morale and discipline in massive battles in history the most determining factor. Training and leadership affect both (I do get that constructs have different rules for both, tactics and logistics is also extremely important)

Perhaps a way to include PC characters in truly massive battles is a command bonus buff/debut?
 
I can kinda see the argument where one main character doesn't matter compared with the thousands of other people of equal strength and skill.

However these cases aren't equal in strength and skill at all. Plus, there should be a way to count bonuses from generals. Morale and discipline in massive battles in history the most determining factor. Training and leadership affect both (I do get that constructs have different rules for both, tactics and logistics is also extremely important)

Perhaps a way to include PC characters in truly massive battles is a command bonus buff/debut?
No. The system is supposed to be simple and not to immediately revert back into curating giant lists of people nobody cares about except to get bonuses. It's a layer of complexity that is just not adding remotely enough value to justify the complexity it adds.

This isn't a wargame after all. If the thread committed to spent 80% of it's time on playing general, we could certainly look into such things. But right on this page, one of the few people who is currently making plans at all notes that he doesn't like the fact that he has to care about a different system at all.
 
The update might end up being a bit delayed today.

It is obnoxiously hot again and I can't be sure I can write properly. Maybe the Sultan of Brass is trying to send me a message. :V
 
Sorry for the delay, guys. Puppy demanded a walk right when I was about to make a vote.

[X] Accept the Fealty
-[X] Send the IAF Makhaira Gladius-class Destroyer from Harrenhal, and the IAF Gladius Gladius-class Destroyer and the IAF Moonchaser led by Moonsong from Sorcerer's Deep
--[X] Imperial forces are stretched thin, we are in a state of high alert until defenses can be shored up and the airfleet rebuilt
-[X] See about getting Fire-Immune Forge Beasts such as Fiery Darkenbeasts and Grand Dragon Turtles stationed here in force, along with several Heralds
-[X] Assign a Herald to the personal service of the Salamander Queen in honor of her new status as our vassal
-[X] Tyene will serve as our primary envoy to ensure we take control over another slaver-culture without too many issues, Maelor is there for support, and Waymar in case things get to serious combat.
--[X] Amrelath and Yrten will also be present to mingle with a future peer given their realms-to-be will be neighbors of sorts under the Imperium.


Suggestions are welcome. Held off on the Heart Tree and potential Fire Forge for after this is all cleared up.
I'm not sure how helpful it will be to station Tyene, Maelor, and Waymar there for any length of time. If they're away for more than a day, they won't be part of Dany's Persistomancy, which will significantly impact their overall abilities and survivability. Would rather keep them in SD, since they, along with others, could easily Greater Plane Shift to the Salamander domain if necessary on a moment's notice, or to elsewhere in the Imperium if needed.

Yrten probably isn't a great choice for this, either. At least not in this capacity. He's a captain of a ship, so that's how we should use him if we're going to ask him to be involved at all. Shipping in supplies, maybe, or just keeping his eyes and ears open for any intel that might affect our new vassals.

EDIT: What about sending the Harbinger along with Amrelath?
 
Last edited:
The update might end up being a bit delayed today.

It is obnoxiously hot again and I can't be sure I can write properly. Maybe the Sultan of Brass is trying to send me a message. :V
I feel your pain, dude.

Me and a buddy were going to go a local race last night, but we chickened out because of the heat. At 7 PM, it was still 89 degrees Fahrenheit in the shade, and thinks to the ridiculous humidity it felt more like 100.

I'll be so damned glad when it starts to cool off.
 
Yrten probably isn't a great choice for this, either. At least not in this capacity. He's a captain of a ship, so that's how we should use him if we're going to ask him to be involved at all. Shipping in supplies, maybe, or just keeping his eyes and ears open for any intel that might affect our new vassals.
Bringing in supplies by ship is not feasible. Yrten would get bombarded and sunk without much ceremony.

You can open up a Gate next turn to move supplies in, if that's what you want to do. Right now, the Cobalt Scales have to rely on their stockpiles.
 
I'm not sure how helpful it will be to station Tyene, Maelor, and Waymar there for any length of time. If they're away for more than a day, they won't be part of Dany's Persistomancy, which will significantly impact their overall abilities and survivability. Would rather keep them in SD, since they, along with others, could easily Greater Plane Shift to the Salamander domain if necessary on a moment's notice, or to elsewhere in the Imperium if needed.

Yrten probably isn't a great choice for this, either. At least not in this capacity. He's a captain of a ship, so that's how we should use him if we're going to ask him to be involved at all. Shipping in supplies, maybe, or just keeping his eyes and ears open for any intel that might affect our new vassals.

EDIT: What about sending the Harbinger along with Amrelath?
Point. Especially after the above clarification.

Changing this to the Harbinger and Amrelath mainly as living imperial symbols.
 
Europe and North America is cooking and here in Southeast Asia we are drowning.

It's been raining nonstop for two weeks now guys, halp!

With that, I've never so much appreciated dryers and fabric conditioners. Is SD advanced enough to have laundromats :V

[X] Duesal
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jul 28, 2021 at 8:35 AM, finished with 63 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Accept the Fealty
    -[X] Send the IAF Makhaira Gladius-class Destroyer from Harrenhal, and the IAF Gladius Gladius-class Destroyer and the IAF Moonchaser led by Moonsong from Sorcerer's Deep
    --[X] Make sure the imperial forces showing up to reinforce the newly vassalized Salamanders arrive with enough supplies to relieve the siege
    --[X] Imperial forces are stretched thin, we are in a state of high alert until defenses can be shored up and the airfleet rebuilt
    -[X] See about getting Fire-Immune Forge Beasts such as Fiery Darkenbeasts and Grand Dragon Turtles stationed here in force, along with several Heralds
    -[X] Assign a Herald to the personal service of the Salamander Queen in honor of her new status as our vassal
    -[X] Amrelath and the Harbinger will be present mainly as symbols of new imperial authority rather than with the expectation that they'd be of significance in battle
 
I'd consider a war to be a perfectly real fight. Your ur-problem, which nobody will ever be able to fix, is that you think PCs should dominate everything, and armies be just window dressing for the setting flavor.

Is more that we are fine if companions die but they have to way i na matter that count for us, the people who follow this quest.

Richard or garin getting kill in that raid for the warding stones? I will said people would find a narrative trade off, the same die in a battle that is abstract away? no cool, is why we resurrect gendry after what happen in dale because he is narrative important to some sense, otherwise he is barely remarkable.

As one can see, this is another case of "the game with threed heads" dilema, we are a running a civil quest/D&D quest/Wargame quest all the same time and of course the head of the beast will atach each other.
 
Is more that we are fine if companions die but they have to way i na matter that count for us, the people who follow this quest.

Richard or garin getting kill in that raid for the warding stones? I will said people would find a narrative trade off, the same die in a battle that is abstract away? no cool, is why we resurrect gendry after what happen in dale because he is narrative important to some sense, otherwise he is barely remarkable.

As one can see, this is another case of "the game with threed heads" dilema, we are a running a civil quest/D&D quest/Wargame quest all the same time and of course the head of the beast will atach each other.
See, the problem here is that you assume that the name would just appear in a casualty statistic and that is that.

Which system kills a character for what reason has no relationship with how much narrative attention it gets.

I mean, Gendry and Tobho got more or less a chapter each, despite being irrelevant.
 
Back
Top