Also if I may be frank with you guys, this part of the reorganization is more than a bit draining on me, it feels really overwhelming so if you could offer a bit more feedfack that would be great for helping to get us all through this. It is not easy to make this sort of wide ranging system change and decide what to keep and in what form so even if you do not get involved with things like this usually it would really help me to see suggestions and just generally thoughts on the changeover...

I'm not trying to pressure anyone into participating, just if you can find the time and the energy to consider how you want to engage with the quest I would really appreciate that. You guys do not have to suggest mechanics or anything, just ideas for what you would like to see or how you might enjoy the more high level play to work on a simplified level.
A few notes here.

1. We should probably have an action for rounding up the lingering Fey courts minus the Azure and Green Courts and having them either bend the knee or leave in peace.
2. For administration, I'm surprised there isn't an action for rebuilding King's Landing. That's a pretty big showcase of what the Imperium can do for Westeros. No more slums, clean water, no shit everywhere, etc.
 
Once upon a time I ran a CK2 Quest called King's of Men and omakes gave dice boons... and I had more crits than fails on any given turn. I will not deny that omakes like that are good for engagement, but it feels to me like pay to win with omakes.
Never been a fan of that mechanic. Would prefer not to see it here.
 
Provincial Mechanics

Each province (Duke Level) will have the following stats rated 1 to 100 denoting an aspect of life there:

Prosperity: This is not just raw wealth but how well that wealth is distributed. The Southern Crownlands would have a prosperity of only 15 because just having wealth flowing in from the rest of Westeros does not mean much to the people in Fleabottom who are dining on rat. By contrast Volantis under the Imperium which is actually seeing to its economic and legal woes has a Prosperity of 35 and the Imperial lands including the borderline land of milk and honey that it SD will have a Prosperity of 55. At 100 you are living in pre-Breaking Heaven and at about 80 you are in the Empire of the Dawn

Health: This is the measure of life expectancy and quality of life, including physical and mental health, so for instance if you broadcast, Heaven is broken and we are screwed you would tank the Health of your provinces as well as the following stat. At less that 10 health you have a plague in the province 15-20 is normal pre-Imperium levels and you have managed to get most of the lands you took to high 20s to low 30 (if you actually did Health for just the cities like Braavos, Volantis or Tolos it would be around 40 but don't forget the peasants)

Public Order: This is not the measure of how loyal a province is at the elite level, that is handled though the Curia and general politics in detail, this is a measure of local unrest and certain kinds crime the ones that actually impact legitimacy. Sneak thieves are fine highway robbers are not. High Public Order is not always a mark of good rule, sometimes it is just the case that the province is too small or too externally dangerous to produce much unrest. No one is going to do much violent crime in Valyria if you organized the place into a province. A public order of 90+ thus means either you can't do those sorts of crimes... or you are talking about Dis and Axis. Most places in Westeros are in the low 20 for Public Order with your Essosi holdings being in the high 30s to low 40s

Learning: This measures formal education at a mass level... and when you take into account that we are talking about a concept that has only just started to take root in the world you are not going to find many places even break double digits. Even the Imperial lands are at 25. There are still a lot of peasants in what was once the Disputed Lands

I thought about having a stat for integration into the wider imperium, sort of a cultural compatibility stat, but I do not like where that would take the play style.

Actions and how they work: Actions are often concerned with raising stats, and the higher a stat is the higher it is to raise because increases are not linear. Think about how hard it is to make SD more presperous as opposed to say Bear Island. The stats of a province will also impact the CoS of an action in a province

OK, this is as far as I got in the whole 'make actions have some easily visible impact' category. You know the drill, read comment etc...

A few notes here.

1. We should probably have an action for rounding up the lingering Fey courts minus the Azure and Green Courts and having them either bend the knee or leave in peace.
2. For administration, I'm surprised there isn't an action for rebuilding King's Landing. That's a pretty big showcase of what the Imperium can do for Westeros. No more slums, clean water, no shit everywhere, etc.

Will add both, that is taxation and public works respectively

@DragonParadox
One thing would be actions to support the Lords of Westeros in their upcoming Census, or actions to double-check their work for any tricks.

That is the help with election action.
 
Prosperity: This is not just raw wealth but how well that wealth is distributed. The Southern Crownlands would have a prosperity of only 15 because just having wealth flowing in from the rest of Westeros does not mean much to the people in Fleabottom who are dining on rat. By contrast Volantis under the Imperium which is actually seeing to its economic and legal woes has a Prosperity of 35 and the Imperial lands including the borderline land of milk and honey that it SD will have a Prosperity of 55. At 100 you are living in pre-Breaking Heaven and at about 80 you are in the Empire of the Dawn
Okay, so it would take a mix of economical and social actions to improve this?
Since purely economical is of limited effect, we could literally cosplay the Industrial Revolution, multiplying productivity and wealth of a region several times, but not actually improve the lot of the people if we don't simulataneously avoid extreme worker exploitation.
 
@DragonParadox, do away with provinces. This is albatross around the neck of the old system that ultimately choked it to death. Do not, I repeat, do not retain my mistakes by keeping this.

The problem is that without those I have no way to show change and growth (or at least none that I can think of). I need the players to have some kind of feedback for what kind of change they are enacting. If you are making KL less shit... well how much less shit and how will that impact the state's ability to act there in the future.

Other suggestions for how to order this are welcome of course. I am not wedded to the idea of provinces.
 
The problem is that without those I have no way to show change and growth (or at least none that I can think of). I need the players to have some kind of feedback for what kind of change they are enacting. If you are making KL less shit... well how much less shit and how will that impact the state's ability to act there in the future.

Other suggestions for how to order this are welcome of course. I am not wedded to the idea of provinces.
Do it narratively. Otherwise, you end up with still more provinces than the old system had at the end (45 provinces if you use Ducal-level titles) and nobody knew or cared in the end about all those numbers that first I and then @Crake were tracking there.

The playerbase of the thread is not conditioned to engage with such a system since for years, it was kept out of the narrative nigh entirely while being worked on just by a few people in the background. You just don't have the audience for this. In the end, it will just end with @Crake doing all the work since nobody else will be willing to invest the time and effort.

On this very page, you've tried to prod people into reacting to and engaging with proposed actions. This is what every turn-vote will look like. And the more knowledge and expertise you will need to engage with the system (meaning how complex the system is) the more time it will need for engagement to build.

Just... trust me on this. I've ran plenty of mechanics heavy quests. People don't grok them and it's just a few dedicated plan-makers who will ever engage with it, or people making educated guesses and being wrong half the time or producing unintended consequences. ASWAH has neither the type, nor number of players to sustain a high-mechanics gameplay.

Edit: I mean, to be clear. Do you want to personally do the bookkeeping for 45 provinces, probably a similar number of military formations, the whole political system and run a few NPC empires at the same time?
 
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Do it narratively. Otherwise, you end up with still more provinces than the old system had at the end (45 provinces if you use Ducal-level titles) and nobody knew or cared in the end about all those numbers that first I and then @Crake were tracking there.

The playerbase of the thread is not conditioned to engage with such a system since for years, it was kept out of the narrative nigh entirely while being worked on just by a few people in the background. You just don't have the audience for this. In the end, it will just end with @Crake doing all the work since nobody else will be willing to invest the time and effort.

On this very page, you've tried to prod people into reacting to and engaging with proposed actions. This is what every turn-vote will look like. And the more knowledge and expertise you will need to engage with the system (meaning how complex the system is) the more time it will need for engagement to build.

Just... trust me on this. I've ran plenty of mechanics heavy quests. People don't grok them and it's just a few dedicated plan-makers who will ever engage with it, or people making educated guesses and being wrong half the time or producing unintended consequences. ASWAH has neither the type, nor number of players to sustain a high-mechanics gameplay.

Edit: I mean, to be clear. Do you want to personally do the bookkeeping for 45 provinces, probably a similar number of military formations, the whole political system and run a few NPC empires at the same time?

OK fair point, no provinces (though I might keep a simplified sheet just for my own use so I do not break my brain trying to recall that stuff). How about empire wide stats? That is as vague and fluffy as stats get.
 
OK fair point, no provinces (though I might keep a simplified sheet just for my own use so I do not break my brain trying to recall that stuff). How about empire wide stats? That is as vague and fluffy as stats get.
Too broad. They lose all meaning. Keep some good notes on the areas and just extrapolate from there. Consider it an ongoing worldbuilding exercise, since that's basically what it is.
 
Once upon a time I ran a CK2 Quest called King's of Men and omakes gave dice boons... and I had more crits than fails on any given turn. I will not deny that omakes like that are good for engagement, but it feels to me like pay to win with omakes.
True but on the other hand it does help expand world building. And you can just cap the boni. Like a +20 or whatever.
 
From a game-design perspective, rewarding Omakes is a nightmare with various perverse incentives and significant negative impact on the narrative.

Definitely not a good idea.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 12, 2021 at 12:49 PM, finished with 42 posts and 7 votes.

  • [X] Bid Krall farewell, gift him a Healing Belt and Ring of Sustenance, then travel to the Opaline Vault with Lya to visit a museum before before calling it a day.
    [X] Bid Krall farewell, then travel to the Opaline Vault with Lya to visit a museum before before calling it a day.
 
[X] Bid Krall farewell, then travel to the Opaline Vault with Lya to visit a museum before before calling it a day.
 
Will add both, that is taxation and public works respectively
Repairing/restructuring King's Landing is probably big enough to involve a few actions. Redoing the sewers, replacing Fleabottom, mapping/closing/patrolling the tunnels, etc.

Also I agree with @Azel as much as intuitively makes sense to use provinces with their own stats it is probably best to avoid them entirely. Your narrative is so much stronger and more engaging without having a rules crunch inserted in the middle of it, even as a spoiler.
 
Part MMMDCCLXXIX: Into History Delving
Into History Delving

Twenty-Ninth Day of the Fifth Month 294 AC

Although you briefly consider hiring Krall again, your memory has not gone quite so far down the rosy path of nostalgia. Managing him was bad enough that you were glad when Oberyn took him off your hands, and while the last few years seem to have given him a measure of power they do not seem to have changed him that much. No reason to make Teana's job, or realistically the job of whatever poor sod she sticks with shit tasks, any worse than it has to be. You toss Krall a ring of sustenance and a belt of healing in passing for old time's sake, to the obvious curiosity of the crowd and the jealousy of his fellow circus employees.

"Krall thanks ye," the mephit calls, a touch more polite than you recall of him.

With a faintly theatrical but sincere bow, you bid farewell to Braavos and its people and make your way from the city not by land, not by air, and not by sea, but...

Outwards and downwards

Through rushing stone and familiar darkness where the sun had never shone and the ever-industrious shaitan turn the wheels of a realm that yet recalled the wonder of the Spheres Unbroken. Being a people of stone, they kept some of it safe, like a leaf dried between the pages of a book or a creature of the ancient world, its bones petrified by the very substance that entombs it.

The Grove of Memory seems at first to be a single enormous piece of polished malachite growing in strands and ribbons from the wall of the vast cavern that contains the great city of the shaitan, but on closer inspection the coils of living stone are shaped into steps so subtle the foot finds them almost before the eye.


"'Do not weep for the beauty that has passed, but rejoice that such has once been found among the spheres and that you too may remember it,'" Lya reads the inscription above the door you had chosen. Unusual for the words of the stone genies, you cannot tell if it is the main entrance, one to the side, or if the distinction even matters. The hall is built with the grain of the stone and not across it, in honor you had been told, to the wonders of the Garden that is No More.

The Peerless Empire had found the Garden, or rather it had found them, but it was not the Garden that it had lost in that time of Endings and of Loosing.

Jewels there are here, bright and glittering like the firmament in ages past, and murals that reflect an age of plenty and of peace, men and women plucking strange fruits from trees that are as strange to you as they must have been to the shaitan, for you had never glimpsed the like and even the deepest parts of dream-wrought memory there are only shadows of shadows. What care had your eldest kin for trees, but to be kindling for their breath?

"Look," Lya points at another image forged in mithral and celestial bronze. "Two moons in the sky, looks like that legend is true."

"The one about dragons hatching from a broken moon?" you ask dubiously.

"No, of course not," she shakes her head. "But if there used to be two moons and then one of them broke just before the dragons laid down fire and doom from the Fourteen Peaks then some people long ago could have made the connection that got reinterpreted as the dragons coming from the moon much later. I wonder why that isn't in any of the written records."

"There is no moon and no sun to be found here, the shaitan likely would not have understood the significance," you opine. "Here, let me make a replica of that plaque for later." You pull a block of mithral and another of celestial bronze from the depths of your cloak and with a whispered word shape them.

"You don't have to. I can recall them perfectly..." she interrupts.

"I know. I wanted to give you a gift," you say, pressing it into her hands. "These have been a wonderful couple of days "

"For me also," Lya replies as your hands meet over the metal still humming with the magic of its making.

OOC: Next up is going to be the new turn so no vote standard for this. That said if you guys have something urgent you can think to do on the last day of the month you can vote for it now.
[/QUOTE]
 
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Next up is going to be the new turn so no vote standard for this. That said if you guys have something urgent you can think to do on the last day of the month you can vote for it now. Not yet edited.
Wait, I skipped many some chapters, but did we already have the results for the last old-style RAs ever?
 
Into History Delving

Twenty-Ninth Day of the Fifth Month 294 AC

Although you briefly consider hiring Krall again, your memory has not gone quite so far down the rosy path of nostalgia. Managing him was bad enough that you were glad when Oberyn took him off your hands, and while the last few years seem to have given him a measure of power they do not seem to have changed him that much. No reason to make Teana's job, or realistically the job of whatever poor sod she sticks with shit tasks, any worse than it has to be. You toss Krall a ring of sustenance and a belt of healing in passing for old time's sake, to the obvious curiosity of the crowd and the jealousy of his fellow circus employees

"Krall thanks ye," the mephit calls, a touch more polite than you recall of him.

With a faintly theatrical but sincere bow, you bid farewell to Braavos and its people and make your way from the city not by land, not by air, and not by sea, but...

Outwards and downwards

Through rushing stone and familiar darkness where the sun had never shone and the ever-industrious Shaitan turn the wheels of a realm that yet recalled the wonder of the Spheres Unbroken. Being a people of stone, they kept some of it safe, like a leaf dried between the pages of a book or a creature of the ancient world, its bones petrified by the very substance that entombs it.

The Grove of Memory seems at first to be a single enormous piece of polished malachite growing in strands and ribbons from the wall of the vast cavern that contains the great city of the Shaitan, but on closer inspection the coils of living stone are shaped into steps so subtle the foot finds them almost before the eye.


"Do not weep for the beauty that has passed, but rejoice that such has once been found among the spheres and that you too may remember it," Lya reads the inscription above the door you had chosen. Unusual for the words of the stone genies, you cannot tell if it is the main entrance, one to the side, or if the distinction even matters. The hall is built with the grain of the stone and not across it, in honor you had been told, to the wonders of the Garden that is No More.

The Peerless Empire had found the Garden, or rather it had found them, but it was not the Garden that it had lost in that time of Endings and of Loosing.

Jewels there are here, bright and glittering like the firmament in ages past, and murals that reflect an age of plenty and of peace, men and women plucking strange fruits from trees that are as strange to you as they must have been to the shaitan, for you had never glimpsed the like and even the deepest parts of dream-wrought memory there are only shadows of shadows. What care had your eldest kin for trees, but to be kindling for their breath?

"Look," Lya points at another image forged in mithral and celestial bronze. "Two moons in the sky, looks like that legend is true."

"The one about dragons hatching from a broken moon?" you ask, dubiously.

"No, of course not," she shakes her head. "But if there used to be two moons and then one of them broke just before the dragons laid down fire and doom from the Fourteen Peaks then some people long ago could have made the connection that got reinterpreted as the dragons coming from the moon much later. I wonder why that isn't in any of the written records."

"There is no moon and no sun to be found here, the shaitan likely would not have understood the significance," you opine. "Here, let me make a replica of that plaque for later." You pull a block of mithral and another of celestial bronze from the depths of your cloak and with a whispered word shape them.

"You don't have to. I can recall them perfectly..." she interrupts.

"I know. I wanted to give you a gift," you say, pressing it into her hands. "These have been a wonderful couple of days "

"For me also," Lya replies as your hands meet over the metal still humming with the magic of its making.

OOC: Next up is going to be the new turn so no vote standard for this. That said if you guys have something urgent you can think to do on the last day of the month you can vote for it now. Not yet edited.
Here's an edited version of the chapter, @DragonParadox.

Viserys and Lya's date really has been great, dude. I think they should do this every turn. Lots of places for them to visit, people for them to see, etc.
 
Good night guys, see you in the morning as we work on the turn.I can't promise a full turn since I want to have at least nine options per ministry pplus the research and inquisition options so that is well over a hundred options.
 
Too broad. They lose all meaning. Keep some good notes on the areas and just extrapolate from there. Consider it an ongoing worldbuilding exercise, since that's basically what it is.

On that note, would it be possible to tone it down to like 8-10 areas with like 5 numerical stats? It would provide a small amount of granularity for those interested in it while also being so big picture that you could likely tell what is going on with a quick read through. Especially if each stats change was clearly marked.

If they were put into like a spoiler with each full turn update it would allow people to quickly understand the big picture trends for the major parts of the Imperium. I would personally engage with that system even if I would be unlikely to engage with a system that is more complicated. It would be of more use as a way to inform the playerbase of trends than to actually plan or base mechanics around.
 
On that note, would it be possible to tone it down to like 8-10 areas with like 5 numerical stats? It would provide a small amount of granularity for those interested in it while also being so big picture that you could likely tell what is going on with a quick read through. Especially if each stats change was clearly marked.

If they were put into like a spoiler with each full turn update it would allow people to quickly understand the big picture trends for the major parts of the Imperium. I would personally engage with that system even if I would be unlikely to engage with a system that is more complicated. It would be of more use as a way to inform the playerbase of trends than to actually plan or base mechanics around.
I don't think that you can cut the Imperium into anything less than 15-20 parts without losing meaningful granularity. It's just too big.

In a normal Empire Builder, this complexity would have slowly expanded and players growing with the system, but that isn't really working here. All the complexity was front-loaded and we keep dumbing down things year after year, because it never went far enough to actually solve the problem.

So I don't think anything less than going full CK2 system would be a sufficient cut in complexity at this point.
 
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