Sorry about that @TalonofAnathrax vote stays open. I jumped the gun there. The last thing I want to do is kill discussion.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
-
- Tags
- a song of ice and fire a sword without a hilt d&d 3.5 dungeons & dragons 100% high octane dragon fuel ave corvidae battle action dragon diplomacy best sister bureaucromancy delicious soul-stuff dragon dreams come true dragon ta'veren greatest uncle hubris is a coward's word in defiance of gods and men mammon's folly mutually assured mage's disjunction qm murderhobo top tier coatl
Sorry about that @TalonofAnathrax vote stays open. I jumped the gun there. The last thing I want to do is kill discussion.
- Location
- Germany
I also got a few likes of people who were already voting for me though.
Me: BronzeTongue, Crake, Microtec, plan liked and acknowledged by Duesal, QueenPally and zxzx24
You: Tutan0ss, Trevor23
And could we please not go back to "you are sneaking stuff in"?
I changed my mind after there was more opposition to your heavy god angle. That is all.
If any of this is anyone's' fault it is mine for jumping to close the vote. I will leave this a full 24 Hours if I have to in order to make sure everyone has had a chance to look in on the situation and chine in and debate. Seriously I like the debate and it makes me feel like all this is more worthwhile and engaging
- Location
- Germany
My core problem with that is that you are actively undermining our chances to even make the Leviathan a thing. If government policy takes a hard swerve towards piety, we will not get the necessary juice for it and will be stuck with appeasing the faiths.
Do you want to restore the power of the High Septon? Get some Burny fanatics demanding us to give a clear answer if we are Azor Ahai or not? We kept pushing Laicite for a reason. Don't throw away the long-term goals for making it easier to achieve a very short term one.
I'd rather not have to rewrite that speech since it came out pretty good, but I'm getting the feeling you will insist on keeping this vote open until I do, as I don't expect any big movements and you seem certain that my vote winning is illegitimate.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
Zealotry is hardly the answer. The idea was to have two options to present to people (Imperial Deity or Imperial Pantheon) and neither of those things is in more than an idea of an idea stage or beyond nascent cooperation.
Our answers have to lean toward beginning as we mean to go on, or we will never get to begin those things at all.
Our answers have to lean toward beginning as we mean to go on, or we will never get to begin those things at all.
- Location
- France
So 5 out of 18 people like your new plan. That still leaves 13 who voted for your old plan (which is effectively my current vote).
And your plan doesn't just change the Gods issue. It also has a completely different tone. We're trying to reassure people, and you start by freaking them out even harder. Not great, IMO.
Honestly, you may have a point with the "too many Gods" thing. It deserves to get debated. BronzeTongue brought it up, and it's a fair point. I just happen to prefer Goldfish's objections, and also think that a heavy use of friendly Gods is absolutely not new for our Empire and isn't something we should disavow or hide. It's reassuring, effective, and is an excellent rhetorical gambit. We'll be completely transfoming the perfection everyone has of this when we unveil our godcrafting (Leviathan) anyway, so I'm not convinced by BronzeTongue's idea that this will permanently shape discourse and perception about this issue. I just think we should leave the vote open longer because right now the voting situation is a little weird. If nothing's changed in a few hours then presumably all the silent voters were convinced, I guess.
EDIT: Wrote this before seeing DP keeping the vote open.
Last edited:
- Location
- France
I also dislike the accusation of "zealotry". My plan emphasizes our personal prowess and the role of our armies too! I also wave the cloak around, remind people of our military victories, etc.
I just also make it clear that in the short term this isn't an immediate crisis. "There are Gods you already trust who are keeping you safe. Calm down, and work with me on this!"
EDIT: Honestly I could vote for Azel's plan myself if it reassured them from the start. No need to freak them out even further. I understand the logic of fear followed by hope to motivate people to action, but we aren't really trying to get these people to do anything difficult right now. All that we want is for them to know this, don't freak out, and keep it in mind for future decisions.
I just also make it clear that in the short term this isn't an immediate crisis. "There are Gods you already trust who are keeping you safe. Calm down, and work with me on this!"
EDIT: Honestly I could vote for Azel's plan myself if it reassured them from the start. No need to freak them out even further. I understand the logic of fear followed by hope to motivate people to action, but we aren't really trying to get these people to do anything difficult right now. All that we want is for them to know this, don't freak out, and keep it in mind for future decisions.
Last edited:
- Location
- Germany
We've already left it open way longer then usual and since this whole topic is dragging already, I'd rather not drag it out even further.
Also, people won't pivot their entire perception of the world again just because you want them to. When we go the zealotry route now, then this will shape policy. People will push religions and they will push them hard. You will empower the faiths a great deal through that, something we took pains to prevent and do the opposite of.
When the Leviathan comes along, people will not see it as us unveiling a solution we implicitly promised them, but as some weird, heretical thing we did that clashes with how we told them the world should work. Namely that they should pray harder or get eaten by demons.
- Location
- Germany
It is though. We just told them effectively that they don't believe hard enough in their gods, so they might get lost and eaten by demons. The conclusion of that, if we emphasize the gods further, is "pray harder!", which leads to zealotry.
What will you tell Mace if he divines that Olenna, a woman who I'd hardly call pious, is Demon chow now?
What if Darry's brothers are wasting away in Abaddon because they didn't believe hard enough in the Seven?
What do we tell Ned when it turns out that his brother missed the Green Dream and is no fighting for his life in the ruins of Elysium?
You plan is answering all of this with "more faith! more piety!", so of course they will do so and most likely will overcorrect.
Edit:
Fine. Fine. Time is probably better spent editing than arguing.
Last edited:
- Location
- France
What exactly is your plan saying in response to those things? "Don't worry, we'll conquer Hell for you" is a massive lie. We're absolutely nowhere near doing that.
Meanwhile, more religious people isn't a huge problem now that we've denied them direct power. And we have a fairly good handle on the biggest faith around (Red Faith, most of who think we're the messiah) and are offering a big pile of substitutes and competition at the same time.
EDIT:
This, but unironically
The Seven don't have the power to be a problem in the short term. The OG are definitely on our side. Most other religions are non-issues at our scale. And in the medium term, we'll be publicly unveiling the Leviathan. And we can spin the destruction of the Brazen Throne's money as a military victory, emphasizing our Empire's immediate strength. We're not permanently shifting policy towards zealotry, we're giving faith a short-term boost in exchange for keeping people calm in the short term until we have the problem fixed.
Last edited:
- Location
- Germany
That's not what I'm saying though. I'm making vague promises of hope since we can't discuss the practical steps. I'm only telling them that we will fight for this and we have to fight for this together, but I'm not making any direct policy proposals. I'm not even mentioning Baator, let alone making promises of conquering it.
Cut out part of the beginning. Pointing out the paradigms of this war and how it differs from the wars they know is important though, precisely so they don't get it in their head that conquering a few layers of Baator is the only thing that matters.
[X] Plan Overhauled
-[X] "We speak not of a mortal war here, Minister Tarly. This is not a war of nobles, where one meets in a field to fight over who owns what strip of land. It is not a war of traders, where ships on the sea harass each other over trade routes and gold. They care not for land. They care not for gold. They care not for us. For them, we are nothing more than ore dug from the ground. Something to be taken, purified and cast into a shape that serves their purposes. Killing us is not something they do in furtherance of their goals, but it is the goal itself."
-[X] "This war is a total war. To live is to fight in it, no matter what it is that you do. Every breath we take is defiance of their designs. Every healer is a soldier, fighting day for day to deprive them of what they want to take from us. Every scholar is a soldier, every scrap of knowledge gleamed a chance to forge another blade against our foes. Every artist is a soldier, beating back the despair and keeping our hopes alive so that we fall not prey to their blandishments while we yet live."
-[X] "We can fight this war. We can win this war. To think otherwise is the first step towards defeat. Even as we speak here, we fight this war. Out in the Deep, the Illustrious is being put through her paces while more vessels are worked on in the berths beside her. In the factories, workers labor day and night to fill bombs and shells by the thousands. In Westhaven, soldiers train to hold the line against the onslaught. And there will be more. Weapons greater and more terrible than any man could have dared to imagine. Machines so vast and mighty that even the false gods will learn to fear them."
-[X] "But above all, you must keep the faith. In the Imperium to protect you in life, and in the gods to do so in death. When we are not united. When we waver in our resolve. When all hope seems lost. Then is when they will come to you. Maybe in the flesh. Maybe in your dreams. Maybe as a whisper during your prayers. The will offer you an easy way. They will offer you poison. And if you waver, they will spread it through you."
-[X] "This war is a total war and I have burdened you all with this truth because you too must fight it. Because you too are now soldiers in it. I have forged the Imperium not as a throne for myself, but as another weapon against the darkness around us. And it is through your actions and choices that it will be determined if it will serve that purpose. Before this great and terrible truth of the world, all our labors may seem small and pointless, but only if we labor alone for our own gain. But if are united in mind and purpose, we can fight this war. We can beat them back. And one day, true victory might be within our grasp."
-[X] Ask Mereth to present the military situation on the Planes, taking advantage of the unexpected moment to tact to drive home the notion that your baatezu are in the same boat as the rest of the Realm
-[X] Explain that Mereth's soul, due to a ritual cutting her off from Baator and which you perform on all fiends and most other Outsiders serving you, will be lost and dissipate, unless some astral predator or fiend snatches it up. It is a detail you could not explain in open session when they objected to Iziku, but you trust their loyalty because they trust you with the fate of their very souls.
- Location
- Germany
Talon. The people we are talking to have power and can act on their own. They will give the faiths this power if we tell them to seek their salvation in faith.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Does it merit saying that we don't want that to happen, or have we said this often enough before?
Also,
Will these undead have the same problems that other non-Qyburned undead have?
Last edited:
- Location
- France
No need to say it. Not only have we been clear about it, we've also made it impossible for these people to do much about it
They also can't publicly share the news, either. At worst religions will get more indirect social power if these people give them cash and/or opportunities to proselytize in their lands.Honestly @Azel's plan will do at this point, I think.
And I'm curious to see what the update will look like
[X] Azel
Sorry everyone who voted for me, but I think this compromise will do.
Yes, normal skeletons and zombies.
- Location
- Germany
I'd rather not point this out too directly since I don't want to position us too harshly opposed to faith either.
At the core, my argument is that this problem is not new and can't be handled easily, but the Imperium has been designed for that exact purpose and will be able to handle it if they trust us and work with us.
OK, vote closed.
[X] Azel
Edit: Literally late by a minute lol.
Edit: Literally late by a minute lol.
Last edited:
Interlude MLXXII: Where Hearts are Tried
Where Hearts are Tried
Twenty-Second Day of the Fifth Month 294 AC
Benedict had not been born to noble blood and high history, not even the sort that you could find staining less than fine sheets. The little village on the banks of the Inswater, not far from Ashford, had been filled with modest and Faithful folk, faithful to the Seven of course. Benedict had not even known that there were other sorts of gods nor folk who worshiped them until he practically fell off the back of a cabbage wagon onto the streets of Oldtown. The sheen had come off his faith in those days, fleck by fleck, like the tiny golden threads of the High Septon's robes that he had found glimmering in the muck one day as a boy. Yet here he was in palaces of the mighty and the great, following the train of Marwyn whose eyes always saw too far and too deep, staring down at the pit of wrath and despair beyond any fiery sermon, all writ in flickering colors and pretty symbols of glamor craft.
Randyll fucking Tarly wanted to fight Hell and the Pit and Gods knew what sword in hand... The new-mad marshal did not know if he should laugh or cry, and he feared he was worryingly close to doing both. With shaking hands he took a handkerchief from his pocket and brought it to his lips to muffle any sound.
"We speak not of a mortal war here, Minister Tarly." The voice of the Imperator sounded far far away, as though from an echoing pit and it was all Benedict could do to make sense of his words. "This is not a war of nobles, where one meets in a field to fight over who owns what strip of land. It is not a war of traders, where ships on the sea harass each other over trade routes and gold. They care not for land. They care not for gold. They care not for us. For them, we are nothing more than ore dug from the ground. Something to be taken, purified and cast into a shape that serves their purposes. Killing us is not something they do in furtherance of their goals, but it is the goal itself."
Someone was rushing to the door now, only to be stopped by the Preatori on guard and none too gently.
Philario Zyrio, Volantene magister, Benedict's far too fine memory noted, doing its damnedest to think of something, anything other than the horror which had been unveiled before his eyes. Would the poor bastard be handed over to the healers, or the Inquisition?
The Imperator seemingly paid the whole affair no mind and instead looked on across the hall as though he could pin each man and women to their places with naught but the strength of his will. "This war is a total war. To live is to fight in it, no matter what it is that you do. Every breath we take is defiance of their designs. Every healer is a soldier, fighting day to day to deprive them of what they want to take from us. Every scholar is a soldier, every scrap of knowledge gleamed a chance to forge another blade against our foes. Every artist is a soldier, beating back the despair and keeping our hopes alive so that we fall not, prey to their blandishments while we yet live."
I can hear my heart all too well, thank you Your Majesty, and it does not sound like defiance to me, Benedict thought, feeling for the first time anger towards the young man in gold and crimson. It lay like pond scum on an endless well of fear.
Thump...
Thump...
Thump...
"We can fight this war. We can win this war." The words rang loud, but it rang hollow to the mind of Benedict. "To think otherwise is the first step towards defeat. Even as we speak here, we fight this war. Out in the Deep, the Illustrious is being put through her paces while more vessels are worked on in the berths beside her. In the factories, workers labor day and night to fill bombs and shells by the thousands. In Westhaven, soldiers train to hold the line against the onslaught. And there will be more. Weapons greater and more terrible than any man could have dared to imagine. Machines so vast and mighty that even the false gods will learn to fear them."
Slowly, almost too slowly to realize it was happening, the speech started to sink in. He had not been given the task of Marshal without some skill in military matters. For years now he had been telling the fools in Oldtown that the face of war would change utterly... and now this. It made sense in a dark sort of way, the face of war would have to change, for the very ground it trod had changed all unbidden, the stakes were not what they had been.
Thump...
Thump...
Thump...
The beat of his heart slowed as he took in the words and found them to be grounded in the craft he had long labored over. Others were not so calmed. Torro Tollesi, Archon of Saath, rose from his seat, his gold and jade headdress not quite a crown jingling in his agitation and he cried. "This is not real, it can't be real! It's some Inquisition trick to test our loyalty!"
This time it was too loud or perhaps the speaker too exalted for the Imperator to ignore him. "The Inquisition is not in the business of playing tricks and neither am I, and I would sooner jest about my own life and death than about the matters spoken of this day." The words were sharp and stern, almost as much as those spoken to the disgraced Lord Lannister. "Sit down, Your Excellency."
The man sat silently as though a weight of lead had just been set upon his shoulders.
If there was no magic in that command it was because he did not need to use it. But then his expression changed and there was a hint of unease to it and a sigh on his lips. "Above all, you must keep the faith. In the Imperium to protect you in life, and in the gods to do so in death. When we are not united. When we waver in our resolve. When all hope seems lost. Then is when they will come to you. Maybe in the flesh. Maybe in your dreams. Maybe as a whisper during your prayers. The will offer you an easy way. They will offer you poison. And if you waver, they will spread it through you."
In the years to come Benedict would never be able to say what had moved him to applaud then, like he was watching some grand performance moving to the heart and the soul. Perhaps it was loyalty, perhaps it was trust rekindled, perhaps it was simply the ragged edge of despair that demanded he do something, anything to prove that he was still alive and warm and able still to approve of this rejection of the dark when he did not himself have the courage to speak aloud.
Much to his surprise applause caught and rumbled for a while through the chamber, but all too soon it was lost in the echoes again.
"I do thank you for your cheers for this, for all I welcome the brave hearts from which they spring," the Imperator said with a smile. "I have burdened you all with this truth because you too must fight it. Because you too are now soldiers in it. I have forged the Imperium not as a throne for myself, but as another weapon against the darkness around us. And it is through your actions and choices that it will be determined if it will serve that purpose. Before this great and terrible truth of the world, all our labors may seem small and pointless, but only if we labor alone for our own gain. But if are united in mind and purpose, we can fight this war. We can beat them back. And one day, true victory might be within our grasp."
I did not make this throne to sit on, says the man on the throne, one final flicker of long accustomed cynicism flashed in the former maester's mind at that, but he knew well that a throne could be a weapon too. Not for nothing had Aegon the First made his seat of swords. Still, his heart soared at the word victory and in that he was not alone. Even a few of those grim Northerners had tears in their eyes, even the Lord Stark who had asked the first question.
When the Imperator turned to the woman with wings and armor both daubed black to the left of his throne to speak instead of the bright spirit to his left not a whisper was raised against it.
"Know ye princes and lords of men all that Minister Iziku spoke with more than the silvered tongue of his breed," the fury said with cadences that sounded oddly archaic in formality as only the harvester devil's had done in the magic of the chamber. "Should I die my soul shall be lost to the winds of the astral and so would those of my sisters... if we are fortunate. As much or more than you we seek to see this realm prosper and grow despite of all its foes though long shall be the path."
Then with the eye of a officer if not quite a general she accounted the state of the spheres, the vassalage of what remained of Heaven to the throne of Hell, Paradise made into a battleground for horrors amid embattled fortresses and lone towers of silver, just as the spirit of fire had recounted Elysium the broken. Men did not weep then, for they were but names in the cold accounting of a fiend, though if one were to glance upon the face of the lord of Mantarys or perhaps of Justice Chesed, as Benedict did, then perhaps they should have.
"Can we help them then, can we send aid? To these distant fortresses I mean?" Lord Stark asked into the silence that followed. "Would any aid of ours be enough to help stem the tide?"
What does the Imperator reply?
[] Write in
OOC: Benedict came very close to going catatonic there but you pulled through more or less intact so far.
Last edited:
Evaunit02mark1
S-s-smell the Prey, S-s-start the Hunt.
Not until we get Westeros up to snuff probably, and even then we have fronts on our own turf to worry about before we try to fight wars on their shores.
If we can knock back the squids, survive Winter, dissolve the Sultan's economy without him burning down half of planetos in retaliation and deal with whatever bullshit Lloth's gigantic crazy ass throws at us then maybe.