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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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DragonParadox said:
Not at all, at least not in good time
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But we could do it for those we have, which incidentally are also the closest to him, so propably the worst affected?

We have Gerion, Tygett and Tyrion, which should be the closest relatives and most of them are already smoke.
We can get the sister of his that married a Frey quickly.

That's everyone within the first degree of relation, I think, or did I miss someone?
Most Lannisters are from other branches, long since split off.
 
DragonParadox said:
Yes, but that would be significant administrative and magical effort.
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Eh. Expanding our knowledge on how to do psychic surgery is in of itself useful. We want to be able to make our own Outsiders after all.

[X] Plan of Fire
-[X] Of all the options, this is the least bad. If we just break the altar, there is no telling if the binding will actually break or if it just might drive all bound insane. Likewise, would it truly be better to cause the people bound unwillingly such pain? There risk seems vastly too high for the Golden Shields, let alone for those Lannister who have not been party to Tywins madness.
-[X] Promise him that the Golden Shields will be screened by your Preceptor Archons to assess the damage, if such exists, and that you will invest resources into researching ways to fix the lingering corruption. You have seen more then enough examples where the ability to remove such conditioning would have been useful.
-[X] This is in addition to whatever efforts he wants to dedicate to their recovery and you will not expect any of his regular help for the time being.

Mind you, I'm expecting a lot of the Golden Shields to just latch onto Viserys and become his Clerics / Oracles / Favoured Souls, so the number of people we will actually have to fix up will be managable.
 
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egoo said:
* Somewhere far, a psychologist shaggy doggo cries out in pain on the very notion *

Meme'ing aside, do we care enough to bother spending time and effort on restructuring their brains that way?
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That's not really comparable here. What Zathyr is describing is not psychological damage, but that remnants of the binding magic might seep deeper into their minds and cause issues down the line. If you have shrapnel stuck in a wound, you get a surgeon to remove it and only then you apply a bandage and let it heal. In this case, Qyburn would be the surgeon digging out the shrapnel, and the Preceptrons can do the aftercare.
 
Azel said:
Eh. Expanding our knowledge on how to do psychic surgery is in of itself useful. We want to be able to make our own Outsiders after all.

[X] Plan of Fire
-[X] Of all the options, this is the least bad. If we just break the altar, there is no telling if the binding will actually break or if it just might drive all bound insane. Likewise, would it truly be better to cause the people bound unwillingly such pain? There risk seems vastly too high for the Golden Shields, let alone for those Lannister who have not been party to Tywins madness.
-[X] Promise him that the Golden Shields will be screened by your Preceptron Archons to assess the damage, if such exists, and that you will invest resources into researching ways to fix the lingering corruption. You have seen more then enough examples where the ability to remove such conditioning would have been useful.

Mind you, I'm expecting a lot of the Golden Shields to just latch onto Viserys and become his Clerics / Oracles / Favoured Souls, so the number of people we will actually have to fix up will be managable.
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Maybe ask Zathir to assist with their recovery? I would be willing to forego his assistance with other projects for a couple months if it makes this go more smoothly, and it should help illustrate to him that we aren't taking this lightly and that we want to undo the harm the inflicted by the altar of his previous incarnation.

[X] Azel

EDIT: BTW, it's Preceptor, not Preceptron. That sounds like a spybot from the Fallout setting.
 
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Goldfish said:
Maybe ask Zathir to assist with their recovery? I would be willing to forego his assistance with other projects for a couple months if it makes this go more smoothly, and it should help illustrate to him that we aren't taking this lightly and that we want to undo the harm the inflicted by the altar of his previous incarnation.

[X] Azel

EDIT: BTW, it's Preceptor, not Preceptron. That sounds like a spybot from the Fallout setting.
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Added that explicitely.

Mind you that I don't think Zathir is terribly objective right now. He viscerally hates what Tywin did with his altar and his suggestion is the very option that Lya is certain will drive most of the Golden Shields insane. I think this will be a lot less severe or widespread than what he implies there.
 
@DragonParadox Even if we had chosen some other esoteric path to ending this, and the other mentioned options appear to involve indiscriminate death to some effected, so that doesn't appear to have ever been in the cards, if we say, went around gathering up and manually breaking these enchantments, we'd still need to apply delicate psychic surgery to completely fix each person's issues. Behavioral patterns and ingrained habits would make each of these people predisposed toward obedience, and might even have a greater urge like Zathir mentioned to serve devotedly to a single person over all else. They spent years with an overarching, primary motive being satisfying Tywin.

I get that he wasn't being objective or rational in his suggestion, though. Citing that as his reason for wanting to destroy it seems more anger that there is nothing he can do to prevent that. Even destroying the altar would leave the people "freed" likely more traumatized than they would be if we didn't apply state resources to rehabilitate them directly and just let them worship Viserys. Which we might still have to do at least in the short term, since fixing them isn't going to be fast.

... I don't even know what I'm really complaining about, I guess, it's not like Gods can help trying to smite and erase a personal affront to their domains and a desecration of their own holy sites in particular. Why did we bring him here? We could have had a personal discussion somewhere else which wasn't likely to rile him up and gone over the pros and cons of everything.
 
Tyrion: I'm about to meet the Dragon, the ruler of most of the world, Merchant of Gods and Breaker of Courts. It's going to take all of my cunning and wit to get him to spare my life-
Viserys: Dude, I'm sorry, I'm kind of in the middle of something. Just chill for a minute while I try to undo the most thorough work of excrement that your father made.
 
Silverking said:
Tyrion: I'm about to meet the Dragon, the ruler of most of the world, Merchant of Gods and Breaker of Courts. It's going to take all of my cunning and wit to get him to spare my life-
Viserys: Dude, I'm sorry, I'm kind of in the middle of something. Just chill for a minute while I try to undo the most thorough work of excrement that your father made.
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Viserys having a full schedule is something even the most unobservant commoner is aware of.
 
Crake said:
@DragonParadox Even if we had chosen some other esoteric path to ending this, and the other mentioned options appear to involve indiscriminate death to some effected, so that doesn't appear to have ever been in the cards, if we say, went around gathering up and manually breaking these enchantments, we'd still need to apply delicate psychic surgery to completely fix each person's issues. Behavioral patterns and ingrained habits would make each of these people predisposed toward obedience, and might even have a greater urge like Zathir mentioned to serve devotedly to a single person over all else. They spent years with an overarching, primary motive being satisfying Tywin.

I get that he wasn't being objective or rational in his suggestion, though. Citing that as his reason for wanting to destroy it seems more anger that there is nothing he can do to prevent that. Even destroying the altar would leave the people "freed" likely more traumatized than they would be if we didn't apply state resources to rehabilitate them directly and just let them worship Viserys. Which we might still have to do at least in the short term, since fixing them isn't going to be fast.

... I don't even know what I'm really complaining about, I guess, it's not like Gods can help trying to smite and erase a personal affront to their domains and a desecration of their own holy sites in particular. Why did we bring him here? We could have had a personal discussion somewhere else which wasn't likely to rile him up and gone over the pros and cons of everything.
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Mostly because he, as the creator and former owner of this shrine, has the most leverage over it. The reason that we need to convince him of the first option is that we strictly need his cooperation to make it work.
 
Azel said:
Mind you that I don't think Zathir is terribly objective right now. He viscerally hates what Tywin did with his altar and his suggestion is the very option that Lya is certain will drive most of the Golden Shields insane. I think this will be a lot less severe or widespread than what he implies there.
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I have a suspicion that if we mention the possible loss of sanity for the enslaved victims and the soul deep agony inflicted on the Lanister children from the other options might get Zathir to be more objective after all Zathir is the lawful big good to Asmodeus's lawful big evil
 
Out of curiosity, if we assume the reins of the geas network and bind all affected to us, and then free them.
Is there anyway we can devise that would turn the seek a new master residual effect of the geas solely to Imperator/Imperium/Imperium's New God?
A sort of class alignment towards the imperium, sort of like how a new convert to a religion views all aspects of their life through the lens of the religion and tries to align their lives to the precepts of the religion.
So the the seek a new master effect becomes more like an instinctive be a good citizen of the Imperium effect.
 
mmgaballah said:
I have a suspicion that if we mention the possible loss of sanity for the enslaved victims and the soul deep agony inflicted on the Lanister children from the other options might get Zathir to be more objective after all Zathir is the lawful big good to Asmodeus's lawful big evil
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I think he is perfectly aware of that, but the desecration of his holy site is blinding him to those facts. Which is why I want to remind him of them.
 
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