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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Tbh, the only real losses possible there are Jon and Arya.
The first one's a narrative-pumped character, Others would just love to snatch him up. Also striking at Viserys' "Family"-butthurt-button.
The latter's essentially the Chosen of Old Gods - even if they haven't gone through with power-leveling her ever since encountering us.

As one may notice, it's not actual strategic losses to our plans.
Just things that we'd have to counter later on, if Others manage to smuggle the bodies away before we come back.

Starks are ultimately expendable to the last one (present in Winterfell, that is), at this point.
EDIT: Tldr is, Void sucks at choosing targets -- again :V
 
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egoo said:
Tbh, the only real losses possible there are Jon and Arya.
The first one's a narrative-pumped character, Others would just love to snatch him up. Also striking at Viserys' "Family"-butthurt-button.
The latter's essentially the Chosen of Old Gods - even if they haven't gone through with power-leveling her ever since encountering us.

As one may notice, it's not actual strategic losses to our plans.
Just things that we'd have to counter later on, if Others manage to smuggle the bodies away before we come back.

Starks are ultimately expendable to the last one (present in Winterfell, that is), at this point.
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Ultimately all the Starks have solely sentimental value to us at this point. Some a lot more so then others (Jon, Arya due to the Old Gods connection), but nothing would really change on a strategic level if they live or die.

Though if Caitlyn bites it and comes back as a Wight, we would have another Tully murdered "by Winter". Heck, we could blame this on Tywin by claiming he tried to cull Baratheon loyalists.
And to think people were against framing the Others when murdering Brynden Tully...
 
Azel said:
Ultimately all the Starks have solely sentimental value to us at this point.
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Tbh, never really understood this from other posters.
It's not like we ever had good relations with them IC, throughout the quest?
Even Jon was only on-screen for, like, a dozen chapters total over the 4+ years.

They are a bunch we have to either herd like cats, or let die and handle someone who'll be replacing them - like most any other Westerosi lords.
It would be mite different if every Lord out there was at least at the Level 10 cap, but alas, they are all scrubs.
Azel said:
Though if Caitlyn bites it and comes back as a Wight, we would have another Tully murdered "by Winter". Heck, we could blame this on Tywin by claiming he tried to cull Baratheon loyalists.
And to think people were against framing the Others when murdering Brynden Tully...
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It is known - even when Cersei succeeds, she fails.
This one's the longest-going success-to-fail so far, though :V
Truly, 'binding' an Other was the best worst decision she could've made.
 
egoo said:
Tbh, never really understood this from other posters.
It's not like we ever had good relations with them IC, throughout the quest?
Even Jon was only on-screen for, like, a dozen chapters total over the 4+ years.
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Jon had background presence all throughout the quest, even if his on-screen time was limited. It's another Rhaella situation. Player investment not high across the board, but slanted enough in influential posters to keep reminding people "yup, that is a thing we have to do, it's IC".
 
Jon and Arya are the only one that have true value to us and Viserys really. If they survived Viserys would be pretty fine. Does help that Sansa is basically in our pocket if things go the most wrong. Sansa is very useful for the North if the situation goes bad.
 
mrsean22 said:
Jon and Arya are the only one that have true value to us and Viserys really. If they survived Viserys would be pretty fine. Does help that Sansa is basically in our pocket if things go the most wrong. Sansa is very useful for the North if the situation goes bad.
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It has the unfortunate side effect of making it look like things when conveniently terrible for every single rebel house just before we claimed Westeros, though. Hard to shake that kinda rumor, since it's at least 75% true.

Right now it's somewhat obfuscated by being too outrageous to really contemplate. Like really, Viserys having half the Small Council under his control?

Godbombing the Fey out of existence?

Having subverted two thirds of Westeros before we'd even invaded??

...actually... huh.

Everyone when they realize this: 😨
 
Crake said:
It has the unfortunate side effect of making it look like things when conveniently terrible for every single rebel house just before we claimed Westeros, though. Hard to shake that kinda rumor, since it's at least 75% true.

Right now it's somewhat obfuscated by being too outrageous to really contemplate. Like really, Viserys having half the Small Council under his control?

Godbombing the Fey out of existence?

Having subverted two thirds of Westeros before we'd even invaded??

...actually... huh.

Everyone when they realize this: 😨
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There's a much easier explanation: Everything went consistently great for the loyalists because Viserys helped them and protected them from the general madness, chaos and death.

Other explanations are needlessly complicated, unsubstantiated, treasonous and unnecessary.

The Imperator is your friend.
 
Crake said:
Jon had background presence all throughout the quest, even if his on-screen time was limited. It's another Rhaella situation. Player investment not high across the board, but slanted enough in influential posters to keep reminding people "yup, that is a thing we have to do, it's IC".
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"The Queen Who Was" was an amazing interlude, and that entire sequence was fun to read. It was also fun to play at the time, in a "what's Snowfire going to think of next?" sort of way.
I absolutely don't regret raising Rhaella.

On the other hand, a lot of the time spent helping Jon and seeing Sansa's interludes was... unremarkable. They were decent chapters, but I've never gone back to reread them or anything. Some fun scenes of Jon and Danny playing around in the dream were implied in the background (and Jon's friendship with Danny sounds like fun! Be a mentor, little girl with twice as many levels than birthdays!), but that's about it.
 
Crake said:
It has the unfortunate side effect of making it look like things when conveniently terrible for every single rebel house just before we claimed Westeros, though. Hard to shake that kinda rumor, since it's at least 75% true.

Right now it's somewhat obfuscated by being too outrageous to really contemplate. Like really, Viserys having half the Small Council under his control?

Godbombing the Fey out of existence?

Having subverted two thirds of Westeros before we'd even invaded??

...actually... huh.

Everyone when they realize this: 😨
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I'd love to hear Westerosi conspirative theories. A pity internet doesn't exist yet in this setting.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
"The Queen Who Was" was an amazing interlude, and that entire sequence was fun to read. It was also fun to play at the time, in a "what's Snowfire going to think of next?" sort of way.
I absolutely don't regret raising Rhaella.

On the other hand, a lot of the time spent helping Jon and seeing Sansa's interludes was... unremarkable. They were decent chapters, but I've never gone back to reread them or anything. Some fun scenes of Jon and Danny playing around in the dream were implied in the background (and Jon's friendship with Danny sounds like fun! Be a mentor, little girl with twice as many levels than birthdays!), but that's about it.
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Speaking as someone who has done multiple rereads of different arcs, enjoying even the most mundane of chapters, maybe my perspective is a little warped.
 
Tomcost said:
I'd love to hear Westerosi conspirative theories. A pity internet doesn't exist yet in this setting.
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I get the feeling most people in Westeros aren't intellectually curious enough to be conspiracy theorists, or even engage in conspiracies above "how do I put X on Y throne?" or "how do I usurp Z?" Which is obviously slanted toward personal benefit above large-spanning ideological conceit.

Most of those types of people wind up in the Citadel, I think.
 
Crake said:
Speaking as someone who has done multiple rereads of different arcs, enjoying even the most mundane of chapters, maybe my perspective is a little warped.
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Oh, I've done that too. I just don't really count the Jon and Sansa interludes among my list of interesting subplots. They weren't bad or anything - I'd just avoid comparing them to Rhaella's subplot. ;)
Even when parts of the thread weirdly started shipping Rhaella with Bonifer, things stayed pretty great.

Actually, now that I start listing my fave plots, a lot of them involve one of these two things: Viserys giving an especially good speech seen from an interesting PoV (the Malarys interlude, for example), or an especially clever worldbuilding or plot decision by DP. The non-canon Pycelle interlude will always be dear to my heart, purely because of Pycelle's Big Brain Bloodraven conspiracy theory. Similarly, when our foes show cleverness in strategy or tactics, I'm more inclined to reread the part. When ASOIAF worldbuilding merges especially well (and unexpectedly) with D&D Lore, I'm instantly impressed!
Of course the usual aww, slice-of-life or "WTF" moments will always get a reread from me (see that turn vote with the changeling babies, the Daenerys birthday chapters...).
 
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*shrug* It's been thousands of years. Both of those things worked when Starks and Northmen who knew what they were facing, were prepared/preparing against it, and already had the resources to deal with it, were actively manning those defenses.

As it stands, Stark has done no study of his own Keep's wards because he has no Runecrafting expertise, nor anyone with it. The Wall is manned mostly by people who aren't aware of its capabilities. And in general, the most prepared lord in the North is a Bolton, and we have no confirmation if Turn Resistant undead are a worthwhile strategic advantage to any systematic degree.

It is utterly unsurprising if they would just continue to be caught with their pants down without outside intervention. They're poor and slow to catch up with the South in regards to its exploitation because they didn't face the various pressures which forced everyone else to quickly adapt and utilize it. Ned Stark notes this in text when he mentions how he chose to recruit wizards officially by asking Robert for leave to do so. "Too little, too late."

This is all expected and normal... all of the narrative indications support this is the case, or @DragonParadox wouldn't have written it that way. This is also why Bloodraven hedged his bets on someone from the South assisting him one way or another, or someone working in the South to manipulate them into helping. Because the North just doesn't have the ability to handle things on their own.
 
...can we please shit-talk at the Starks some if they survive this?
They deserve some shit-talk.
 
egoo said:
...can we please shit-talk the Starks some if they survive this?
They deserve some shit-talk.
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No, they really don't. No one pushed them into working harder except for us, and we gave them all the information they needed access to when we finally had the opportunity, and they listened, and then made moves to course correct.

They didn't have time, and we valued our own goals over the North.

If we blame anyone... well, we won't blame anyone. It is what it is. We resolved ourselves to that when we chose this course.
 
Crake said:
No, they really don't. No one pushed them into working harder except for us, and we gave them all the information they needed access to when we finally had the opportunity, and they listened, and then made moves to course correct.

They didn't have time, and we valued our own goals over the North.

If we blame anyone... well, we won't blame anyone. It is what it is. We resolved ourselves to that when we chose this course.
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...Agree to disagree?

It is my opinion that near damn every (Dornish = one love <3) remaining lord of Westeros deserves a variable amount of shit-talking once we take over.

Starks weren't particularly smart with the resources they had, and likely only survived the game's start as well as they did because Bloodraven.
They also didn't go all-in with us like they ought to have had, even privately, after all the shit we've done to help.

Some shit-talk is warranted.
 
egoo said:
...Agree to disagree?

It is my opinion that near damn every (Dornish = one love <3) remaining lord of Westeros deserves a variable amount of shit-talking once we take over.

Starks weren't particularly smart with the resources they had, and likely only survived the game's start as well as they did because Bloodraven.
They also didn't go all-in with us like they ought to have had, even privately, after all the shit we've done to help.

Some shit-talk is warranted.
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Eh, there's really no point. Just charge them to do their job and prepare for winter.
 
Duesal said:
Eh, there's really no point. Just charge them to do their job and prepare for winter.
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@egoo Totally ignoring all the fucking bending over backwards we did to make the transition smooth as a baby's bottom. The reason we did all that?

Westerosi are insanely prickly in general. If they don't have their daily allotment of prestige, privilege and recognition, they get cranky.

Our way of doing that is to come in and tell them everything will be 100% A-Okay, and that they will enjoy the same comforts as they are used to, and will be protected... while also changing everything, including their actual influence on politics, and getting them to not just go along with it, but help it go faster.

This is the danger of relations based politics. We can only really lay out the occasional House like Tyrell, and only when they act out in public egregiously, because like as not, most of the Lords do not actually want a King with any real power still, they just want a figurehead they can turn to to absorb the political blowback of punishing someone by drumming up enough support and doing backdoor deals to make it happen.

We can talk about berating people for idiocy when we have the leverage.
 
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