We don't have allies who have dedicated their entire race to the True death of fiends. If we have to choice between rebel brain eaters, and the Gith, Tritons, AND possible a Fey Court we'd be stupid to pick the rebels.

If we can convince them to let shit go that is fine, but I don't see that happening.

Oh, but thing is, the Gith hate their former masters, not the aberrations. Or at least that's true for the monk-leaning race of the Gith diaspora. The xenophobic pirates are going to be a problem anyway.

What I mean is, our rules won't bend, and we have managed to recruit a very broad amount of different species. We can do the same with aberrations, as long as they respect the rules.
 
Aberrations don't begin and end with Illithidae though. Qyburn is an aberration now too and about as close to an Illithid as the Seeker is to a human. And then there is Qohor, which hopefully will soon be a steady source of warforms for our various military forces.
It makes me pleased that Qyburn would freak out most illithidae. :D
 
@DragonParadox If I have this right:

Green: Non-hostilities; off-screen'd research on Greenseer viability for the Sleeping King. If good results, integration into a Weirwood (probably on SD) and then the Warden becomes our direct vassal. Every other Fey except the Warden is free to choose to stay our indirect vassal, become a servant of the Old Gods to remain on the Prime Material, or else fuck off into the Feywild for a century?

Azure: Non-hostilities; Shared research action for security procedures. Once that is satisfied, reconduct negotiations, presuming a favorable foot forward since we really are more paranoid than your average insane cultist or incompetent feudal warlord.

Gold: They used their secret weapon when, in an unlikely scenario, divination has failed them. Might be willing to come out of hiding when they realize we were far less interested in killing fey in general, and far more interested in murdering the top brass.

Red: Basically krispy kreme'd. Whoever is left either hired on with us, or became wildfae.

Orange: Deep One snacks.

Violet: In-progress.

Indigo: In-progress.

Good summation.

The Many are descended from Illithids, but they're very much their own unique being, they are more than different enough, to be classified as a new species, that simply has Illithids as their ancestors.

Hence why I called hem ilithidae not ilithids. They are like the Brainstealer dragon you guys fought
 
AFAIK we've only had one research project with large-scale human testing. Xor handled it, and it was about analysing the consequences of long-term mind-control of various stripes.
Oh, okay. I thought you were referring to something involving exploiting mass mind control, not a study into the medical impact of being subject to it.

In that case I think that the impact study we did isn't really a fair data point for the argument you were making. Studying how mind magic might damage people is no more an endorsement of using it than studying burn wounds is for setting people on fire.

I do agree that we can't stigmatize a whole school of magic, but mostly because it has a lot of potential if used responsibly and that trying to suppress it wouldn't do anything productive.
 
Oh, okay. I thought you were referring to something involving exploiting mass mind control, not a study into the medical impact of being subject to it.

In that case I think that the impact study we did isn't really a fair data point for the argument you were making. Studying how mind magic might damage people is no more an endorsement of using it than studying burn wounds is for setting people on fire.

I do agree that we can't stigmatize a whole school of magic, but mostly because it has a lot of potential if used responsibly and that trying to suppress it wouldn't do anything productive.
I would have you know that setting people on fire is a perfectly respectable thing to do. If it was a bad thing to do, then why would the most beloved Imperator be doing it regularly?
 
Hence why I called hem ilithidae not ilithids. They are like the Brainstealer dragon you guys fought
I would say they're significantly more different than that, a brainstealer dragon is basically an Illithid with a dragon body, it still eat brains, it still has the personality of an illithid, so it's pretty much just a powerful illithid, with a bit of dragon mannerism such as hoarding.

The Many on the other hand naturally feed non-lethally, don't instinctively look down on everyone not illithid, don't possess the body of sapient creatures, is a swarm creature, and in general very different from Illithids.

So basically beings like brainstealer dragons are sub-species of Illithids, whereas The Many, are a separate specie that share an origin with the Illithid.

If we compare it with say Simians, then Illithids and brainstealer dragons would be 2 species of Monkeys, while The Many are apes, they still share a common origin, but The Many is way more divergent than a Brainstealer dragon is.
 
I would have you know that setting people on fire is a perfectly respectable thing to do. If it was a bad thing to do, then why would the most beloved Imperator be doing it regularly?
Isn't setting a large area on fire in the opposite direction from an ongoing blaze a good way to get it to go out?

So we're basically just solving fire by making fire.
 
I would have you know that setting people on fire is a perfectly respectable thing to do. If it was a bad thing to do, then why would the most beloved Imperator be doing it regularly?
That may have been a bad example. :V

It still got my point across though didn't it? We were studying the long term impacts of mind control so that we could work to mitigate them. Developing medical techniques for healing the damage something causes isn't the same a project to weaponize it.
 
That may have been a bad example. :V

It still got my point across though didn't it? We were studying the long term impacts of mind control so that we could work to mitigate them. Developing medical techniques for healing the damage something causes isn't the same a project to weaponize it.
To be fair, it's been ages since we threw around things like Searing, Agonizing Firebrand. High-level D&D combat is pretty bland and same-ish, with a few specific options being just so much better then the alternatives.

Also, the main reason we never went into the Mindcontrol business is that the vast majority of the thread had either moral objections to it or recognized it as the counterproductive trap that most easy options are. Keeping a population or even just an army in line by enchantment is just asking for the mess to backfire. Unless we are talking about literal pod-people that are grown in a vat without any pesky personality or desires.
 
Also, the main reason we never went into the Mindcontrol business is that the vast majority of the thread had either moral objections to it or recognized it as the counterproductive trap that most easy options are. Keeping a population or even just an army in line by enchantment is just asking for the mess to backfire. Unless we are talking about literal pod-people that are grown in a vat without any pesky personality or desires.
But you don't use enchantments for that control, so the point still stands.
 
But you don't use enchantments for that control, so the point still stands.
I just wanted to point out that the argument about using mass-enchantment was never had properly, because the amoral part of the thread just flatly saw no real utility in doing it.

What argument was had was about if it is acceptable to us that the Orange Court exists, what with them being known to freely and wantonly use enchantments on both mortals and fey for their own amusement. There was a slight majority for "exterminate them" with the runner-up option being "carpet bomb them with Wildfyre and powdered bilestone".
 
I just wanted to point out that the argument about using mass-enchantment was never had properly, because the amoral part of the thread just flatly saw no real utility in doing it.

What argument was had was about if it is acceptable to us that the Orange Court exists, what with them being known to freely and wantonly use enchantments on both mortals and fey for their own amusement. There was a slight majority for "exterminate them" with the runner-up option being "carpet bomb them with Wildfyre and powdered bilestone".
This. Enchanting people and expecting things to go swimmingly is dumb. That's a recipe for disaster.
 
I would say there are definitely uses for enchantment, but unless you are willing to count "it all burns down inevitably in vengeance and violence" as an acceptable outcome of any widescale usage, Enchantment is likely the one school of magic you can't find a way to introduce in as great swathes of general living and civilization. It's much more niche by comparison...

Like Law Enforcement would see use not only in spotting Enchantment but knowing how to undo it. One would posit it would be useful for interrogation, but that's not patently true, since we've shown that you need more comprehensive means to work someone over either because they're innately immune to it, or they don't have any surface memories of what you are trying to get out of them, so memories or even understanding of the history of objects via Not!StructuralAnalysis is important.

Another problem from a mechanical standpoint is that it's just too easily rendered useless, and quite early on, to the point that you need other schools or rule breakers to make it useful again. Like as an example, the door has been rendered immune to evocation magic... well have the walls around it? Or a person cannot be hurt by your fire... but can you cause a collapse on top of them by transmuting all of the supporting rock/building material into sediment and slag?

I would say there's more ways to count the use for enchantment as "dealing with the consequences of people using enchantment" or "dealing with the consequences of people knowing how to deal with enchantment" than there are actual usages for enchantment.
 
I would say there are definitely uses for enchantment, but unless you are willing to count "it all burns down inevitably in vengeance and violence" as an acceptable outcome of any widescale usage, Enchantment is likely the one school of magic you can't find a way to introduce in as great swathes of general living and civilization. It's much more niche by comparison...

Like Law Enforcement would see use not only in spotting Enchantment but knowing how to undo it. One would posit it would be useful for interrogation, but that's not patently true, since we've shown that you need more comprehensive means to work someone over either because they're innately immune to it, or they don't have any surface memories of what you are trying to get out of them, so memories or even understanding of the history of objects via Not!StructuralAnalysis is important.

Another problem from a mechanical standpoint is that it's just too easily rendered useless, and quite early on, to the point that you need other schools or rule breakers to make it useful again. Like as an example, the door has been rendered immune to evocation magic... well have the walls around it? Or a person cannot be hurt by your fire... but can you cause a collapse on top of them by transmuting all of the supporting rock/building material into sediment and slag?

I would say there's more ways to count the use for enchantment as "dealing with the consequences of people using enchantment" or "dealing with the consequences of people knowing how to deal with enchantment" than there are actual usages for enchantment.
Well, there is one use: magical drugs. Mood alterations are part of the school, so, for example, both depression medication and a LSD analogue could come out of the school.
 
Well, there is one use: magical drugs. Mood alterations are part of the school, so, for example, both depression medication and a LSD analogue could come out of the school.
There are also plenty of medical uses for it. Enchantment based analgesics would be much less risky that chemical ones for people not flat out immune. Some kinds of mental health issues would benefit as well.

I can't think of any perfect spells for it off the top of my head, but the ability to manipulate emotions without the side effects of most pills would be great for stuff like bipolar disorder, panic attacks, and possibly depression. Even if it never got passed being the emotional equivalent of a pacemaker it'd still be a real improvement.
Edit: derp. Missed part of your post. :V
 
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There are also plenty of medical uses for it. Enchantment based analgesics would be much less risky that chemical ones for people not flat out immune. Some kinds of mental health issues would benefit as well.

I can't think of any perfect spells for it off the top of my head, but the ability to manipulate emotions without the side effects of most pills would be great for stuff like bipolar disorder, panic attacks, and possibly depression. Even if it never got passed being the emotional equivalent of a pacemaker it'd still be a real improvement.
Yeah. Definitely some applications worth looking into. But nothing nearly as easy and straightforward as making smelters that need no fuel or household goods that won't break when you work them over with a sledgehammer.

One thing I would be particularly interested in is if we can develop an effect that boosts information retention.
 
D&D enchantment is terrible for long-term control (and for mass control), for several reasons:
  • Literally anyone can notice it with a DC 20 Sense Motive check.
  • Suppressing enchantment is trivially easy, and while it's possible to force your mind-controlled target to avoid the most common means of suppression that would easily blow their cover. And it's very easy to suppress mind-control without the mind-controlee noticing before the suppression comes into effect.
  • Most enchantment spells are either blunt tools (Dominate), limited (Charm) or extremely inconvenient to apply and use (theoretically Modify Memory can be used to create the most subtle and reliable mind-control, but the process of reading the target's memories and then creating new ones takes a lot of time and spell slots)
  • Geas and such are surprisingly useful, but they're still rather blunt tools
  • While D&D does have amazing mind-control at level 17 (Mindrape, Programmed Amnesia) at that level enemies can counter and detect it trivially easily
  • Psions do have better forms of Mind magic around mid levels, but it has the same sort of issues: in combat it's easy to counter (Protection from X, Mind Blank) and out of combat it's just too noticeable
  • The "sweet spot" for mind-control is giving a one-off suggestion that's unlikely to be noticed as it'll lie in wait until it activates for a single, short time. Actually making this sort of thing happen takes a whole pile of spells, or so many levels that it's easier to use old-fashioned Diplomacy or superpowered blackmail.
Obviously in-combat mind control is really valuable and when you can make it work it's just awesome. But out of combat, it's very limited. I'd say it's best used on deniable assets nobody will be spending much effort on protecting (see Vampires who can mind-control dozens of random villagers with a few minutes of work, and can then use them as scouts or arsonists or something).

EDIT: The previous posts about non-combat uses of Enchantment are good. I'd also suggest recreational use: when you go to the theater, they could magically influence your emotions to heighten the effect of the acting, etc. You could probably get people to pay even more for the service!
Or for more expensive customers, you could suppress their memory of seeing the play so that they could enjoy it for the first time all over again.
 
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Yeah. Definitely some applications worth looking into. But nothing nearly as easy and straightforward as making smelters that need no fuel or household goods that won't break when you work them over with a sledgehammer.

One thing I would be particularly interested in is if we can develop an effect that boosts information retention.
An item Mechanicus Mind and Focusing Chant (also know as a Student's Pendant of Lesser Ritalin) might help with that, since memorization is an int based check.

Or we could just go with the barely used bit of Modify Memory that lets you give people perfect recall of up to 5 minutes of time per casting (or a single passage in a book).

We could do something like set up a literal wall to wall cheat sheet for a given topic and have students use an item built to only allow that feature of MM to give themselves perfect recall of the sight of it.

If we did do that I'd like to petition that we start with our operational security rules. :V
 
Man, YFW you have literally no excuse not to know the course material for a test, which is an even larger motivator for adhering to a study schedule lest you be subject to an entire class' ridicule.

Conversely the average scores for test materials would skyrocket, making me think that the Scholarum mostly prefers the Practicals when it comes to judging students who excel the most.
 
Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 14, 2020 at 3:39 PM, finished with 45 posts and 11 votes.

  • [X] Violate Visit the Violet Court
    -[X] For once, by walking into negotiations expecting a fight as the prize rather than as the deterrent, considering you are presenting the likely survivor an option that is no real choice at all...
    --[X] Commemorate the moment Dusk Dancer's face twists in anger, you are sure that image will get mileage as a conversation piece in your solar.
    [X] Dealing with the Violet Court
    [X] Azel
 
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