This isn't comparable to other cults. The Black Goat is the majority faith of Qohor and it's hinterland. We will need an ethnic cleansing to get rid of it. And I'm not in the mood to have ethnic cleansing whitewashed like most of our actions.
I'm not sure if we can reasonably even have the thing that'd be needed to actually handle the situation, portrayed in any detail on... well, this site.
No matter how much DP does or doesn't pull authorial fiat to justify VIserys' actions and victories every time, from what we've seen of the place so far, the sheer range of action we'd have to take would kiiiinda sorta cross a few boundaries SV has.
Alternative is having it chalked up as "they were evil and not possible to save, end of the discussion", which is kinda shit of itself.
This isn't comparable to other cults. The Black Goat is the majority faith of Qohor and it's hinterland. We will need an ethnic cleansing to get rid of it. And I'm not in the mood to have ethnic cleansing whitewashed like most of our actions.
Aren't we dealing with people who can literally summon Eldritch abominations and other corrupting gubbins? I mean if they just run around and start summing them, we would be dealing with one heck of a problem. That and we don't have to do an Ethnic Cleansing, we can just do a Super Conversion and annihilate their religion. Hopefully they do not start turning into Shoggoths and the like.
If we're not going to destroy the city and everyone in it, and we won't be doing that, then we need to break the power of the being in the forest whom they worship, or whom represents that being.
I'm not sure if we can reasonably even have the thing that'd be needed to actually handle the situation, portrayed in any detail on... well, this site.
No matter how much DP does or doesn't pull authorial fiat to justify VIserys' actions and victories every time, from what we've seen of the place so far, the sheer range of action we'd have to take would kiiiinda sorta cross a few boundaries SV has.
Alternative is having it chalked up as "they were evil and not possible to save, end of the discussion", which is kinda shit of itself.
Specifically the "they are always evil all of the time so murdering them all is always justified" is what got other people into hot water. You can have touchy themes on this site without getting into trouble if you do so tastefully, without whitewashing or endorsing them, and keeping things in perspective.
And I can say this with some authority, since I did get reviewed for just this in one of my quests and got told that it was fine. (Though I did have some gripes with the lack of a chance to actually defend myself against apparent allegations of rule-breaking, but that's a different topic.)
Aren't we dealing with people who can literally summon Eldritch abominations and other corrupting gubbins? I mean if they just run around and start summing them, we would be dealing with one heck of a problem. That and we don't have to do an Ethnic Cleansing, we can just do a Super Conversion and annihilate their religion. Hopefully they do not start turning into Shoggoths and the like.
I am not entirely certain how you expect forcefully converting an entire region to not turn into an ethnic cleansing. This is precisely how most ethnic cleansings went before the advent of nationalism and the increased focus on racism as a justification for subjugation and murder.
There's... like... entire history books written about Christians deciding that someones faith is wrong and trying to convert them. And when that didn't work peacefully, you got a spot of genocide to help things along.
There's... like... entire history books written about Christians deciding that someones faith is wrong and trying to convert them. And when that didn't work peacefully, you got a spot of genocide to help things along.
Well, Most other religions do not summon things from the Far Relm that can screw over Civilization by accident, but you do have a point. We could pull a Martin Luther and get a reformation going. After a couple of schisms and such with the faith, we could make something of it. That and conquest would be a heck of a lot easier if most of the population is dead or corrupted.
There lay under the hollow woods by darkness or light, a stillness that was more than beasts' fear of men. There was something watchful to it, in creek of rotting wood and cold, and there in the dark hunger stirred. Kira did not like the Forest of Qohor. The beasts looked sick as they slunk under the blacked leaves, the birds sang in dissonant key. She was almost relieved when the undergrowth parted to reveal the first unquestionable evidence of the Far Realm.
It looked like it may have been a wolf once, it still had the general shape of the skull and even the gleam of a pack hunter's intelligence in its acid yellow eyes, but below the jaw its flesh had been replaced with purplish fungal growths. Part of her, and it was a very small part, wondered if the color held true in dyes. Purple was a rare color after all.
"I don't think the beast will be answering questions," Nuri's voice was soft in her thoughts, almost enough to make her start under Lord Drekelis glamor. Kira had found that her sister's voices, while perfectly recognizable aloud by the tough of magic and the elements upon them, were just a bit too similar to her own thoughts when spoken in the silence of the mind. Maybe that's just a me thing, none of the others seem troubled by it.
"Perhaps, but we can follow," the High Inquisitor's own voice interjected as he spun three shadowy hounds forth from the depths of his own magic. In another place such watchers might have caught undue attention, but they were far from the strangest things to walk these tainted groves and that they were not flesh and blood could only be counted a fortunate thing in this place of warped forms.
Hours passed, shadows following shadows, walking over fields of nameless bones and worse paths that squished unpleasantly underfoot like worms under the twisted branches. Fortunately they had guessed aright about like calling to like even among such twisted creations. Wolves were creatures of the pack, and when you came right down to it so were men.
At first the figure lurking ahead under the rain of feathery black leaves... Kira hoped they were leaves at least... looked like some kind of sorcerer wearing a dear skull for a mask, then she saw the straining bloodied ligaments of its neck. That was its head, horridly alive yet a thing of bare and yellowed bone. Somehow it would have been less horrible if it had been properly among the unliving, at least that would have made some kind of sense under the ordering of the Spheres.
"A supplicant traveling the twisting path to be closer to his or her god," Xor's mind voice lacked much of his habitual softness. "A deathly mutation would not be in much favor among the servants of That with a Thousand Young. They are likely seeking another."
"I bleed for it, I won't say from where," Lymond hissed sharply between clenched teeth, unused to communing fully in the mind. He was the most uneasy of them to be heading out here, though he had not said so aloud of course. The one vice sellswords could not afford to show was cowardice. Kira made a mental note to talk to him about being more open with thoughts and feelings. He was not under contract to some lump of a magister minded to hire brutes to fight his wars after all. This was probably not the time for it though.
"Do we take him now or try to follow him deeper into the woods in hopes of hooking a bigger prize?" the incarnate asked instead. Their source had been vague about her actual experiences out in the woods, but she had explained that the deeper portions were available only to the most 'blessed' or those they guided. Following an unknowing supplicant under a glamor counted as guidance enough according to Xor.
What do your agents do?
[] Capture and interrogate the blighted druid, get out of this as fast as possible
[] Follow along, the deeper the hook is cast the larger the catch
[] Write in
OOC:A bit of a simple vote, but I'm hoping we can get through it today so we can have two updates.
While I generally agree with your point @Azel I do think the fact that the religions in this setting have deities that we can actually stab in the face and then wear as a hat, does change the equation somewhat. Afterall what are the cultists going to worship if we already murdered their god?
So while I do think Qohor is going to be a massive pain to deal with, and should probably wait till after Westeros, I think you may be overstating the difficulty of converting the populace as a whole after the initial deicide and purge of the cult's high ranking members are finished.
There lay under the hollow woods, by darkness or by light, a stillness that was more than beasts' fear of men. There was something watchful to it in the creak of rotting wood and there was something cold, and there in the dark hunger stirred. Kira did not like the Forest of Qohor. The beasts looked sick as they slunk under the blacked leaves, the birds sang in dissonant key. She was almost relived when the undergrowth parted to reveal the first unquestionable evidence of the Far Realm.
It looked like it may have once been a wolf. It still had the general shape of the skull and even the gleam of a pack hunter's intelligence in its acid yellow eyes, but below the jaw its flesh had been replaced with purplish fungal growths. Part of her, and it was a very small part, wondered if the color held true in dyes. Purple was a rare color still.
"I don't think the beast will be answering questions," Nuri's voice was soft in her thoughts, almost enough to make her start under Lord Drekelis' glamor. Kira had found that her sister's voices, while perfectly recognizable when spoken aloud, by the touch of magic and the elements upon them, were just a bit too similar to her own thoughts when spoken in the silence of the mind. Maybe that's just a me thing, one of the others seem troubled by it.
"Perhaps but we can follow," the High Inquisitor's own voice interjected as he spun three shadowy hounds forth from the depths of his own magic. In another place such watchers might have caught undue attention, but they were far from the strangest things to walk these tainted groves. That they were not flesh and blood could only be counted a fortunate thing in this place of warped forms.
Hours passed, shadows following shadows, walking over fields of nameless bones and worse paths that squished unpleasantly underfoot like worms under the twisted branches. Fortunately, they had guessed aright about like calling to like, even among such twisted creations. Wolves were creatures of the pack, and when you came right down to it so were men.
At first the figure lurking ahead under the rain of feathery black leaves.... Kira hoped they were leaves, at least... looked like some kind of sorcerer wearing a dear skull for a mask, then she saw the straining bloodied ligaments of its neck. That was its head, horridly alive yet a thing of bare and yellowed bone. Somehow it would have been less horrible if it had been properly among the unliving. At least that would have made some kind of sense under the ordering of the Spheres.
"A supplicant traveling the twisting path to be closer to his or her god," Xor's mind voice lacked much of his habitual softness. "A deathly mutation would not be in much favor among the servants of That with a Thousand Young. They are likely seeking another."
"I bleed for it, I won't say from where," Liomond hissed sharply between clenched teeth, unused to communing fully in the mind. He was the most uneasy of them to be heading out here, though he had not said so aloud, of course. The one weakness sellswords could not afford to show was cowardice. Kira made a mental note to talk to him about being more open with thoughts and feelings. He was not under contract to some lump of a magister minded to hire brutes to fight his wars. This was probably not the time for it, though.
"Do we take him now or try to follow him deeper into the woods, hoping to hook a bigger prize?" the incarnate asked instead. Their source had been vague about her actual experiances out in the woods, but she had explained that the deeper portions were available only to the most 'blessed' or those they guided. Following an unknowing supplicant under a glamor counted as guidance enough, according to Xor.
What do your agents do?
[] Capture and interrogate the blighted druid, get out of this as fast as possible
[] Follow along, the deeper the hook is cast the larger the catch
[] Write in
OOC:A bit of a simple vote but I'm hoping we can get though it today so we can have two updates. Not yet edited.
Here's an edited version of the chapter, @DragonParadox.
This isn't comparable to other cults. The Black Goat is the majority faith of Qohor and it's hinterland. We will need an ethnic cleansing to get rid of it. And I'm not in the mood to have ethnic cleansing whitewashed like most of our actions.
For several centuries the faith of the Black Goat has been a watered-down version that needed to be destroyed from a Druid-Prophet outside of the orders regular hierarchy, to bring the lunatics trying to call Yogg into this world back into power.
If we can just push that to the front as a first step, then we'll have time enough to convert without having to bring in the genocide.
I mean, the faith as described in ASOIAF is bad, but not terribly dangerous to the surrounding world, so I can live with pushing it as a temporary compromise.
We could look for a formerly high-ranking priest that survived the Green Man's coup and who wishes back his cushy and political post and then use him as figurhead against the true madmen.
Edit: I really think the actually dangerous part of the cult will grow weaker, maybe even collapse, if we kill the Aberrations backing the whole thing, their connection to Shub-Niggurath. He doesn't answer prayers or personally intervene, or anything like that, I believe, so without those important pieces we'll have a much easier time.
While I generally agree with your point @Azel I do think the fact that the religions in this setting have deities that we can actually stab in the face and then wear as a hat, does change the equation somewhat. Afterall what are the cultists going to worship if we already murdered their god?
So while I do think Qohor is going to be a massive pain to deal with, and should probably wait till after Westeros, I think you may be overstating the difficulty of converting the populace as a whole after the initial deicide and purge of the cult's high ranking members are finished.
For several centuries the faith of the Black Goat has been a watered-down version that needed to be destroyed from a Druid-Prophet outside of the orders regular hierarchy, to bring the lunatics trying to call Yogg into this world back into power.
If we can just push that to the front as a first step, then we'll have time enough to convert without having to bring in the genocide.
I mean, the faith as described in ASOIAF is bad, but not terribly dangerous to the surrounding world, so I can live with pushing it as a temporary compromise.
We could look for a formerly high-ranking priest that survived the Green Man's coup and who wishes back his cushy and political post and then use him as figurhead against the true madmen.
They did so for generations before the Green Man came. An interloper trying to fundamentally change the religion very quickly can often have his work quickly undone as well. I think Echnaton might be an example?
Shub-Niggurath is, for all its power, not a god in the classical sense. It's unlikely he can answer prayers or cause miracles without Druids or Aberrations nearby doing the heavy lifting.
Thus, when we manage to kill most of the current cult-leadership and the monsters behind them who are spreading corrupion and madness, then I truly believe we have a decent chance not to convert people, but to push the old and relativly harmless cult back in the spotlight.
And then we can start the slower work of reducing that cult's power to managable levels and shaping it in a nicer form, while killing anything that tries to call beasts from beyond the stars again.
First we kill the inner circle, the ones who know what they are doing. Then we deal with the outer circle, the ones who do not know, but know that they do not know and likely have leads to seek the mysteries for themselves.
The general populace hasn't got a clue about all of the things they don't know about and therefore is mostly harmless. They can keep believing in "The Black Goat", which as far they know is a big goat in the sky, without getting anywhere near the eldritch being. Though we'll want to watch them regardless.
They did so for generations before the Green Man came. An interloper trying to fundamentally change the religion very quickly can often have his work quickly undone as well. I think Echnaton might be an example?
Shub-Niggurath is, for all its power, not a god in the classical sense. It's unlikely he can answer prayers or cause miracles without Druids or Aberrations nearby doing the heavy lifting.
THus, when we manage to kill most of the current cult-leadership and the monsters behind them who are spreading corrupion and madness, then I truly believe we have a decent chance not to convert people, but to push the old and relativly harmless cult back in the spotlight.
And then we can start the slower work of reducing that cult's power to managable levels and shaping it in a nicer form, while killing anything that tries to call beasts from beyond the stars again.
Except we were already told that the entire forest is tainted as fuck and contains a large number of enemy strongholds, by virtue of them having entirely taken over the local Feywild, including the innumerable Fey there. We would have to destroy most of the countryside and another huge chunk of the Feywild to pull that off.
All the while, the faithful will happily join their cult in fighting us, turning this into a state of war between the Imperium and the population of Qohor. This will be a prolonged conflict, simply due to the enemy having a diffuse powerbase and controlling a vast amount of assets, so we will have to do a few massacres during the initial fighting and unless the faith decides to be completely stupid, they can leverage this into popular support for fighting the Imperium.
Just out of curiosity, what happens if "Step Two" of the ritual involves the whole thing being blow up either by dragon fire or whatever means he use to purge it?
While I'm not going to say that every enemy will pull that tactic, some of them might. What kind of contingencies or plans we have for this?
There isn't a clean or neat way to handle any of this, unfortunately. Even if we want to avoid an ethnic cleansing we can't tolerate any traces of the cult of the Black Goat lingering. That's a great way to get the Imperium polluted with the next outbreak.
Except we were already told that the entire forest is tainted as fuck and contains a large number of enemy strongholds, by virtue of them having entirely taken over the local Feywild, including the innumerable Fey there. We would have to destroy most of the countryside and another huge chunk of the Feywild to pull that off.
Look, I can't know DP's mind on this and the random cultist we interrogated can't know it for sure either, but my impression of this was that they did not corrupt "innumerable" fey. Most propably died or were driven to madness beyond any use for even an evil cult.
And the sovereigns of the Feywild propably did not let the Aberrations take much (if any) land there either. See Oldtown where even the vague idea that aberrations might come results in an entire watch-fortress of the Azure guarding it, with the nuclear option of releasing bound fiends on anything happens.
You might be overestimating how many strongholds and how deep reserves the Goat has in these forests.
If much of it is only low-level tainted like what we've seen in the recent update, then that is no issue at all for us. Pseudonatural animals and oppressive athmosphere are hardly a big deal compared to what our lands on the Valyrian border face.
Edit: Maybe Mr. Goathead here knows more, at least wait for the results of our investigation here before declaring the entire region lost.
Do you know what might be scarier? If the Far Realm getting a foothold on the material plane is their attempt to escape the Void since it's already eating at their own non-euclidian place.
Do you know what might be scarier? If the Far Realm getting a foothold on the material plane is their attempt to escape the Void since it's already eating at their own non-euclidian place.
Do you know what might be scarier? If the Far Realm getting a foothold on the material plane is their attempt to escape the Void since it's already eating at their own non-euclidian place.
Look, I can't know DP's mind on this and the random cultist we interrogated can't know it for sure either, but my impression of this was that they did not corrupt "innumerable" fey. Most propably died or were driven to madness beyond any use for even an evil cult.
And the sovereigns of the Feywild propably did not let the Aberrations take much (if any) land there either. See Oldtown where even the vague idea that aberrations might come results in an entire watch-fortress of the Azure guarding it, with the nuclear option of releasing bound fiends on anything happens.
You might be overestimating how many strongholds and how deep reserves the Goat has in these forests.
If much of it is only low-level tainted like what we've seen in the recent update, then that is no issue at all for us. Pseudonatural animals and oppressive athmosphere are hardly a big deal compared to what our lands on the Valyrian border face.
Edit: Maybe Mr. Goathead here knows more, at least wait for the results of our investigation here before declaring the entire region lost.
Look. We can either try to pretend that this is dangerous and a Great Old One is a threat worthy of the name, or we treat this as a inconsequential side-dungeon, which we will win anyway, no matter what we do, or which we can ignore safely with nothing bad happening.
And frankly, we both know it's the second and I'm tired as fuck of it being the second.
I'll take a break in the Salt Cave. This whole thing? Whatever.
Look. We can either try to pretend that this is dangerous and a Great Old One is a threat worthy of the name, or we treat this as a inconsequential side-dungeon, which we will win anyway, no matter what we do, or which we can ignore safely with nothing bad happening.
And frankly, we both know it's the second and I'm tired as fuck of it being the second.
I'll take a break in the Salt Cave. This whole thing? Whatever.
It's definitely not a side dungeon. This has been simmering ever since the begging of the quest when I first read the words 'Black Goat' in A world of Fire and Ice. that said fungal and psionic monstrosities are more likely to be the bread and butter of resistance here than true fey, they tend to go mad and kill themselves more often than they get converted.
