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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Sapphon said:
have been samples of their blood in case they got the Mind Blank.
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I tried to push through with that when we captured them, the thread disagreed, we didn't keep any samples.
Sapphon said:
We have no hatred for the Seven
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We don't (kinda), the OGs do.
Even with how far we've gone on getting their mind off the Seven, they still want some restitution to be paid, and we have no real choice but to force Seven to do that, since we're oath-bound.
...Not to mention, the Seven kinda gonna be really reformed by the way we push religious freedoms in our empire.
We take over Westeros? They lose the absolute right to every 'believer' there they have had until we came around.
We'll also change the Seven by our "non-Seven-magic-not-hating"-version of the faith. Which Seven rightfully hate as a prospect.

Sapphon said:
Why should he recognize us as the best king.
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He already does.
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated he admits to us being a better ruler than what other choices Westeros has.

As far as I see it, Lucan's main problems with us are:
1) We aren't moral, none of the shit we are building is moral, Lucan had enough of the LN bullshit from Father and he cannot accept the way we dos stuff on the larger scale.
2) We are gonna reform Seven, something something, souls of the believers, something something, Seven themselves not gonna like that, buh wuh, muh religious absolutism.
Sapphon said:
We have no problem with the Seven, we do not regard the Chosen as our enemies.
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We kinda do, both.
Seven as they are now are horribly bad for everyone in Westeros. They are just stuck behind the times with the way their Faith had shaped them - in a world where far too many kinds of shit is crawling out of the woodworks.
And ofc, the Stranger is 100% an enemy, see his Kingkiller Angel wicked on us.
His Chosen is assumed an enemy as such as well, until proven otherwise.

Regarding the matter of reforming religions in the Empire, I cant say I'm too excited about the prospect of for.ming something like this Synod.

It is "yet another branch" of government that has to be staffed, financed, handled, but most of all it is a branch that is essentialy a free-for-all for people getting power-hungry and scheming and trying to fuck over specific religions they don't like.

We are purely secular state so far.
We don't touch religions with a 10-foot pole until they break our laws (having all magical lore shared with Scholarum and all miracle-doing people registered appropriately), and leave them to handle stuff otherwise.
I feel like trying to clamp tighter on matters of religion and freedom of belief is gonna be only a bad thing for us.
 
@DragonParadox, so, mirrorvisison sets costs remain the same, but now we can essentialy start up our pre-recorded vidya market, yes?
 
egoo said:
I tried to push through with that when we captured them, the thread disagreed, we didn't keep any samples.
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This is a fiasco ... I have a feeling that after visiting the old city, half of the common sense has been disconnected from the thread ... well, let's not remember the old mistakes. Let's hope that not all four of the whooping captives received the Mind Blank.
egoo said:
We don't (kinda), the OGs do.
Even with how far we've gone on getting their mind off the Seven, they still want some restitution to be paid, and we have no real choice but to force Seven to do that, since we're oath-bound.
...Not to mention, the Seven kinda gonna be really reformed by the way we push religious freedoms in our empire.
We take over Westeros? They lose the absolute right to every 'believer' there they have had until we came around.
We'll also change the Seven by our "non-Seven-magic-not-hating"-version of the faith. Which Seven rightfully hate as a prospect.
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My opinion is that Westeros will no longer be the monopoly of the Seven already enough for the OG. And plus the Danelle quest. Once again, the entire Valley, where the Andal invasion began, will be ruled by the OG followers. Both the Clans and Royce are praying to the Old Gods. To the question of magic. The Seven itself began to reform and here we do not need to intervene at all. Just completely separate it from the state. Although the septons did not have much influence on the King anyway.
egoo said:
He already does.
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated he admits to us being a better ruler than what other choices Westeros has.

As far as I see it, Lucan's main problems with us are:
1) We aren't moral, none of the shit we are building is moral, Lucan had enough of the LN bullshit from Father and he cannot accept the way we dos stuff on the larger scale.
2) We are gonna reform Seven, something something, souls of the believers, something something, Seven themselves not gonna like that, buh wuh, muh religious absolutism.
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Then we will make every effort to grab and sacrifice him. This problem needs to be solved, it is like an abscess which the further the more problems it delivers.
egoo said:
We kinda do, both.
Seven as they are now are horribly bad for everyone in Westeros. They are just stuck behind the times with the way their Faith had shaped them - in a world where far too many kinds of shit is crawling out of the woodworks.
And ofc, the Stranger is 100% an enemy, see his Kingkiller Angel wicked on us.
His Chosen is assumed an enemy as such as well, until proven otherwise.
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The gods depend on their believers. Remember two meetings with R'hllor. In the first there was something like "FALL ON YOUR KNEES WORM", and in the second "Would you like some tea, a respected ally and almost Azor Ahai." What was the difference? In the fact that for all Free Cities we have turned from a descendant of Aenar the Exile, into a liberator of slaves, and a light of hope. Seven don't love us? Let's see what they have to say when we become king over Westeros ... when all their believers are forced to recognize us as king! I am sure the attitude will change very much.
Concerning the Chosen. Everything is very simple here. We negotiate with those who are ready to negotiate, and we kill those who believe that we are the embodiment of evil not worthy to rule the promised land. Over time, due to the destruction of the second group, only the first will remain, together with which we will resolve the issue of faith.
egoo said:
Regarding the matter of reforming religions in the Empire, I cant say I'm too excited about the prospect of for.ming something like this Synod.

It is "yet another branch" of government that has to be staffed, financed, handled, but most of all it is a branch that is essentialy a free-for-all for people getting power-hungry and scheming and trying to fuck over specific religions they don't like.

We are purely secular state so far.
We don't touch religions with a 10-foot pole until they break our laws (having all magical lore shared with Scholarum and all miracle-doing people registered appropriately), and leave them to handle stuff otherwise.
I feel like trying to clamp tighter on matters of religion and freedom of belief is gonna be only a bad thing for us.
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I understand the price, but I think that we need such an institution precisely in order to remain a secular state. The idea is to get the septons the priests of various religions in our kingdom to solve their problems themselves. Let me remind you that in the canon, the Sparrow, without any miracles and God's messengers, became a very impressive force. And I am by no means saying that our repressive apparatus will not be able to crush the executions of thousands of fanatics ... I say that it should not do this at all. The ideal situation is when the Elders or Most Devout will pacify those who can be and will defrock and excommunicate those who refuse to measure themselves.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Nagathisaar, Cradle of the Ancestors: The birthplace of the Naga this city is not laid out as the dwellings of men under the sky might be, not even as much as you had seen already of Seth'Vas. Instead the city is a maze of corridors meant to accompany the sinuous forms of the Naga, though one is unlikely to lack for space to stand within its bounds, the naga never stopped growing age upon age. Here guarded by the eternal ancestors lies the Great Ossuary where the bones of the honored dead were interred that the sages of days yet to come might consult them. Alas that that it was the very bones that were Nagathisaar's downfall. An anciant darkness crept though the sacred halls infesting the bones with its malice and as the wards died so too did the sage priests and all in their realm.
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More potential practice against hordes of undead. This time with Void flavoring!
 
Right now, religions are already handled by the administrative branch under Alinor. They are basically treated as private clubs and nothing more.

I don't see a reason to change that since right now, the official political power of religions in the Imperium is precisely nil. For everything else, the Inquistion has things called "Snatching Terrors" and a few deep, dark holes that are very well sound- and divination-proofed.
 
Sapphon said:
Seven don't love us? Let's see what they have to say when we become king over Westeros ... when all their believers are forced to recognize us as king! I am sure the attitude will change very much.
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Sure it will change.
Which is precisely why they (or at least some of them) are going to do everything in their damn power to not let us.
We are gonna brainwash the Seven through their believers.
They rightfully hate the notion.

We cant just play it out as if we have no innate hatred between us, Seven hate us as per their tenets (which wont change on metaphysical level for a while) and someone who's going to force change on them.
We hate Seven as a horribly ineffective group that actively harms the lives of people in Westeros, however much they may have done fine job building their Divine Realm to be a safe haven in spite of Hellven.
Sapphon said:
Concerning the Chosen. Everything is very simple here. We negotiate with those who are ready to negotiate, and we kill those who believe that we are the embodiment of evil not worthy to rule the promised land.
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Pretty much, yeah.
We have Crone's (likely diplomanceable), Smith's (likely diplomanceable), Stranger's (where the fuck is Carmen Sandiego he?!), Danelle (Fey-wrangling in Hope's of making OGs be less livid with Seven. No idea when she comes back, and potentially diplomanceable) and Lucan to handle.
Two - three of them will hopefully be dealt with in the 3rs month, I'll try to push that much in.
Azel said:
Right now, religions are already handled by the administrative branch under Alinor. They are basically treated as private clubs and nothing more.

I don't see a reason to change that since right now, the official political power of religions in the Imperium is precisely nil. For everything else, the Inquistion has things called "Snatching Terrors" and a few deep, dark holes that are very well sound- and divination-proofed.
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Seconded.
 
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Azel said:
Right now, religions are already handled by the administrative branch under Alinor. They are basically treated as private clubs and nothing more.

I don't see a reason to change that since right now, the official political power of religions in the Imperium is precisely nil. For everything else, the Inquistion has things called "Snatching Terrors" and a few deep, dark holes that are very well sound- and divination-proofed.
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Then my question is what to do with countless Begging brothers?
For example, the one who threw his fists at us and tried to forbid the inhabitants of the village we were saving from the illithids to use magic? Thousands of such people roam all over the Seven Kingdoms. Among them, of course, there is Meribald, but most are poorly educated and do not like magic and everything associated with it. Now imagine that the preachers of the Red God will pour into the Seven Kingdoms. Once again, I have no doubt that the Inquisition can unravel any conspiracy, and the Legion can crush any riot. The question is that there won't be other more important tasks for them than to eliminate the aftermath of the septons and the red ones? I am simply afraid that if we do not translate churches, messiner activities and priests into the strict framework of the law and impose collective responsibility on them for our co-religionists, everything will end in great blood and massacre.

egoo said:
Sure it will change.
Which is precisely why they (or at least some of them) are going to do everything in their damn power to not let us.
We are gonna brainwash the Seven through their believers.
They rightfully hate the notion.
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Then what are the plans for Lucan? Just hitting him breaking the truce? I suggest, nevertheless, to try to bend his knee first. And then either kill or equip. I have not seen any other plans yet.
 
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Sapphon said:
Then my question is what to do with countless Begging brothers?
For example, the one who threw his fists at us and tried to forbid the inhabitants of the village we were saving from the illithids to use magic? Thousands of such people roam all over the Seven Kingdoms. Among them, of course, there is Meribald, but most are poorly educated and do not like magic and everything associated with it. Now imagine that the preachers of the Red God will pour into the Seven Kingdoms. Once again, I have no doubt that the Inquisition can unravel any conspiracy, and the Legion can crush any riot. The question is that there won't be other more important tasks for them than to eliminate the aftermath of the septons and the red ones? I am simply afraid that if we do not translate churches, messiner activities and priests into the strict framework of the law and impose collective responsibility on them for our co-religionists, everything will end in great blood and massacre.
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People like that will be declared illegitimate and handled by the Inquisition for not following Imperium laws. Clergy aren't allowed to incite violence or force anything.
 
Sapphon said:
Then my question is what to do with countless Begging brothers?
For example, the one who threw his fists at us and tried to forbid the inhabitants of the village we were saving from the illithids to use magic? Thousands of such people roam all over the Seven Kingdoms. Among them, of course, there is Meribald, but most are poorly educated and do not like magic and everything associated with it. Now imagine that the preachers of the Red God will pour into the Seven Kingdoms. Once again, I have no doubt that the Inquisition can unravel any conspiracy, and the Legion can crush any riot. The question is that there won't be other more important tasks for them than to eliminate the aftermath of the septons and the red ones? I am simply afraid that if we do not translate churches, messiner activities and priests into the strict framework of the law and impose collective responsibility on them for our co-religionists, everything will end in great blood and massacre.
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That's already done though. Begging Brothers are not even a thing under Imperial Law. They are just regular ass citizens with no special rights or legal protections. If any one of them acts up, they will be simply hauled off by the local law enforcement. In fact, a Begging Brother claiming to be clergy and thus claiming special privileges is already breaking the law.

Everyone who does want to be counted among the clergy has to be declared as such by a temple recognized by the administration. The temple as a whole is liable for the acts of it's priests. Therefore, if the missionaries of any one temple cause trouble, we can just, perfectly legally at that, stamp the whole bunch out and restaff the place with priests from more sensible chapters of their respective faith.

There's not really need for any specific legislation. The faiths are already bound by regular Imperial law and are perfectly aware that if they don't self-police, then somebody else will do it and in a manner that is less then polite.
 
Sapphon said:
Then what are the plans for Lucan?
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Your analysis is so far the first attempt to plan anything. Some disagreements with the assumptions made aside, that is basically where we are, yes.

Get to a neutral territory, try to diplomance into leaving/joining, duel it out if fails.

Planning beyond that is mite hard with everyone reflexively shrinking away from matters Lucan-shaped since it's been a sensitive topic for far too ling for our own good.
But bottom line to that is, we just don't know what to say at him, because we don't known enough of him IC.
 
Azel said:
That's already done though. Begging Brothers are not even a thing under Imperial Law. They are just regular ass citizens with no special rights or legal protections. If any one of them acts up, they will be simply hauled off by the local law enforcement. In fact, a Begging Brother claiming to be clergy and thus claiming special privileges is already breaking the law.

Everyone who does want to be counted among the clergy has to be declared as such by a temple recognized by the administration. The temple as a whole is liable for the acts of it's priests. Therefore, if the missionaries of any one temple cause trouble, we can just, perfectly legally at that, stamp the whole bunch out and restaff the place with priests from more sensible chapters of their respective faith.

There's not really need for any specific legislation. The faiths are already bound by regular Imperial law and are perfectly aware that if they don't self-police, then somebody else will do it and in a manner that is less then polite.
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OK.
What is the temple? Who can create it. Is the hut with seven corners in the forest a temple? And if not, then why. Septons built it and they consecrated, lead rituals there, why is it not a temple to which half of the Begging Brothers Reach are attributed. And what will prevent them, after the closure of this "temple", to open the next one in another meadow.

Any law does not just prohibit it regulate any activity. If we start with the question of attribution by the priest to the temples, then it is necessary that someone should lead the census of the temples, so that it is determined who, when and on what grounds can build a new temple, etc., etc., etc.
If we want this to work, we should already have an institution that should be aware of this, I propose to shift this question to the priests themselves ... with the condition that they cannot give permission on questions of their own faith. Let the Moonsingers inspect the Septa, and the septons seek deception in the fraud of YSS followers
 
Sapphon said:
OK.
What is the temple? Who can create it. Is the hut with seven corners in the forest a temple? And if not, then why. Septons built it and they consecrated, lead rituals there, why is it not a temple to which half of the Begging Brothers Reach are attributed. And what will prevent them, after the closure of this "temple", to open the next one in another meadow.

Any law does not just prohibit it regulate any activity. If we start with the question of attribution by the priest to the temples, then it is necessary that someone should lead the census of the temples, so that it is determined who, when and on what grounds can build a new temple, etc., etc., etc.
If we want this to work, we should already have an institution that should be aware of this, I propose to shift this question to the priests themselves ... with the condition that they cannot give permission on questions of their own faith. Let the Moonsingers inspect the Septa, and the septons seek deception in the fraud of YSS followers
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Official religions are the ones recognized as such by the state. A temple can only be designated by a legitimized religion. If they want to call a hut in the forest a proper temple then so be it, but they would also be directly responsible for everything that goes on in there, so if the Begging Brothers get up to no good the High Septon might be called in to explain himself. That's why we're probably going to see the main religion refuse to recognize some mud hut in the forest.
 
Sapphon said:
OK.
What is the temple? Who can create it. Is the hut with seven corners in the forest a temple? And if not, then why. Septons built it and they consecrated, lead rituals there, why is it not a temple to which half of the Begging Brothers Reach are attributed. And what will prevent them, after the closure of this "temple", to open the next one in another meadow.

Any law does not just prohibit it regulate any activity. If we start with the question of attribution by the priest to the temples, then it is necessary that someone should lead the census of the temples, so that it is determined who, when and on what grounds can build a new temple, etc., etc., etc.
If we want this to work, we should already have an institution that should be aware of this, I propose to shift this question to the priests themselves ... with the condition that they cannot give permission on questions of their own faith. Let the Moonsingers inspect the Septa, and the septons seek deception in the fraud of YSS followers
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Which is the job of the administration. In a stunning act of circular logic, you need priests to establish a temple and a temple to have priests.
This is intentional. As pretty much all legal nonsense in the Imperial constitution. It's bureaucratic chicanery to enable arbitrary persecution of people who preach things that the state doesn't like.

These mechanisms already exist and they work exclusively by having a secular, bureaucratic institution supervising the religions. That way, there is no risk of collusion between faiths and no undue power (that is, any) given to the faiths.
 
Azel said:
Which is the job of the administration. In a stunning act of circular logic, you need priests to establish a temple and a temple to have priests.
This is intentional. As pretty much all legal nonsense in the Imperial constitution. It's bureaucratic chicanery to enable arbitrary persecution of people who preach things that the state doesn't like.

These mechanisms already exist and they work exclusively by having a secular, bureaucratic institution supervising the religions. That way, there is no risk of collusion between faiths and no undue power (that is, any) given to the faiths.
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Yep. Any clergy preaching dissent are on a watch list. Anyone actively preaching violence and anarchy disappears. We have enough of that to deal with for all the cultists out there.
 
Excuse me for out-of-context question. At the beginning of our journey we saved a woman, Nerys, in the bandit-mandragora camp. Then she depatured to Tyrosh. Did she managed to get there well? Have we ever met with her after the conquest of Tyrosh?

P.S. I am continuing translation into Russian, but it goes extremely slowly.
 
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Arhin said:
Excuse me for out-of-context question. At the beginning of our journey we saved a woman, Nerys, in the bandit-mandragora camp. Then she depatured to Tyrosh. Did she managed to get there well? Have we ever met with her after the conquest of Tyrosh?

P.S. I am continuing translation into Russian, but it goes extremely slowly.
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We never saw her again, but there's no reason to think she didn't do well.
 
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