A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

[BronzeTongue]

I can see that stuff being used for specialty work, but not really as a combat explosive.

Being able to time an explosive for an hour without using magic is pretty neat.

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That seems like something we'd be able to change; especially since the item it describes acting that way is a bottle of this stuff that's been uncapped. It'd makes sense for more exposure to shorten the detonation time, even if we can't adjust the formula.

 

[Archibald]

Taking a look through the pathfinder alchemical list the following look interesting:

Incendiary catalyst: makes whatever it hits vunerable to fire for 1 round. If we can add this to our liquid fire payloads a 50% increase in damage would be worth it

anointing oil: +1 cl to harmless divine spells but makes casting time increase to a full round action, good for things like the chained reached true ressurection Malarys will be casting, and maybe long lasting buff spells

Clear Ear: +2 bonus to perception and knowledge checks, -2 to charisma. good for research, not good for normal use

Silver: +1 to dc on will saves to disbelieve illusions, should be good for Teana

 

[Goldfish]

Taking a look through the pathfinder alchemical list the following look interesting:

Incendiary catalyst: makes whatever it hits vunerable to fire for 1 round. If we can add this to our liquid fire payloads a 50% increase in damage would be worth it

anointing oil: +1 cl to harmless divine spells but makes casting time increase to a full round action, good for things like the chained reached true ressurection Malarys will be casting, and maybe long lasting buff spells

Clear Ear: +2 bonus to perception and knowledge checks, -2 to charisma. good for research, not good for normal use

Silver: +1 to dc on will saves to disbelieve illusions, should be good for Teana

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We've produced a small amount of Incendiary Catalyst, but haven't actively weaponized it yet. I somehow completely missed that silver could be used as a Power Component with Illusion spells. That's a good one.

Anointing Oil is definitely worth purchasing, if only to use with Chained Resurrections. I wouldn't bother trying to produce it in quantity, though. Nice find.

 

[BronzeTongue]

So do we have a plan for dealing with the morale impact of resurrections? We can't revive everyone all the time, but the people in the groups we don't raise (like the average legionnaire) are going to feel like they're valued less. It's hard to argue with that impression since we are publicly demonstrating which groups we value most with our resurrection choices.

Did I miss something in the legion setup that's intended to deal with this or something?

 

[Tomcost]

So do we have a plan for dealing with the morale impact of resurrections? We can't revive everyone all the time, but the people in the groups we don't raise (like the average legionnaire) are going to feel like they're valued less. It's hard to argue with that impression since we are publicly demonstrating which groups we value most with our resurrection choices.

Did I miss something in the legion setup that's intended to deal with this or something?

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They can get resurrected, if their families pay for it!

Oh, wait, we don't pay them THAT much.

 

[Crake]

So do we have a plan for dealing with the morale impact of resurrections? We can't revive everyone all the time, but the people in the groups we don't raise (like the average legionnaire) are going to feel like they're valued less. It's hard to argue with that impression since we are publicly demonstrating which groups we value most with our resurrection choices.

Did I miss something in the legion setup that's intended to deal with this or something?

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We have a contractual obligation to facilitate the revival of certain powerful vassals, among them being dragons.

Our obligations to the Legion are largely fulfilled.

You could arrive at a few conclusions from that, but they all make sense in standard D&D. If you're important and have the right connections, you might have someone bring you back to life. If you don't make those arrangements beforehand, you might just stay dead.

We are aware this has some problems given the shitty state of the afterlife, but we are trying to work towards making death more tolerable.

 

[Crake]

Look, let's not have a big discussion about this. It always becomes A Thing. A Thing that has no answer, no quick and dirty, no SANE answer.

We cannot resurrect everyone. Cooking up zany fucking schemes to make it happen drives people here UP THE FUCKING WALL. Let's not do it this time.

So if you arrive at the conclusion "Dude, that fucking SUCKS", yeah, that's basically on-point. You either use resurrection, or you never use it in some self-defeating attempt at fairness.

I think most of us are resigned to using it to stay strong enough to accomplish our objectives, which we need living followers to do who can get shit done. Among those objectives is making it so dying isn't that terrible, if its under the right circumstances.

 

[egoo]

Let's not do it this time.

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Seconded.
There is no clean answer for matters such as these, and we had salt and salt again over matters alike.
Best we can do is accept the mechanical/fluffy mesh of DnD as given on matters of resurrection and move on.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Look, let's not have a big discussion about this. It always becomes A Thing. A Thing that has no answer, no quick and dirty, no SANE answer.

We cannot resurrect everyone. Cooking up zany fucking schemes to make it happen drives people here UP THE FUCKING WALL. Let's not do it this time.

So if you arrive at the conclusion "Dude, that fucking SUCKS", yeah, that's basically on-point. You either use resurrection, or you never use it in some self-defeating attempt at fairness.

I think most of us are resigned to using it to stay strong enough to accomplish our objectives, which we need living followers to do who can get shit done. Among those objectives is making it so dying isn't that terrible, if its under the right circumstances.

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I wasn't trying to start the "immortality for all" discussion again, or anything like that. I'm aware that it's impractical, I was just bring up a social consequence of that realization and asking how we planned on dealing with it.

We do give legionnaires a good deal, and fulfill every reasonable obligation we have to them. I just don't think that that fact has as much of an impact on the emotional level as demonstrating who's worth raising from the dead and who isn't. Grieving people aren't terribly rational most of the time either, so that's another awkward dimension to work with.

This'll only get worse with each public resurrection we perform; it stops being miraculous, and starts being something people think they can grasp.

To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying we should change our resurrection policy; just that we should start thinking about PR now since the earlier we deal with it the easier it'll be.

 

[Tomcost]

Besides, we are making an actual effort to care for their souls by solving their whole afterlife problems.

I wonder if we will be able to start gathering souls soon.

 

[Crake]

This'll only get worse with each public resurrection we perform; it stops being miraculous, and starts being something people think they can grasp.

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We don't really do public resurrections. I think DP plays up the instances we do resurrect others too much, keep in mind it was always like, in the middle of our fucking Keep, near a heart tree. Next to the spooky tree.

Do people know we can do it? Yes. We also don't do it in front of the town square.

 

[Duesal]

I wasn't trying to start the "immortality for all" discussion again, or anything like that. I'm aware that it's impractical, I was just bring up a social consequence of that realization and asking how we planned on dealing with it.

We do give legionnaires a good deal, and fulfill every reasonable obligation we have to them. I just don't think that that fact has as much of an impact on the emotional level as demonstrating who's worth raising from the dead and who isn't. Grieving people aren't terribly rational most of the time either, so that's another awkward dimension to work with.

This'll only get worse with each public resurrection we perform; it stops being miraculous, and starts being something people think they can grasp.

To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying we should change our resurrection policy; just that we should start thinking about PR now since the earlier we deal with it the easier it'll be.

Click to shrink...

The blunt truth of it is that while the legionnaires are loyal and brave soldiers of the Imperium, most are not worth a resurrection. This is just a fact of life. The cost of a resurrection is far from secret, we had a MirrorVision briefing on it so everyone is aware. It doesn't take a genius to look at the legionnaire's annual salary vs the cost of a resurrection and realize the two very much do not stack together.

While it does indeed suck from a legionnaire's perspective this truth is undeniable even to them. You have to be much more powerful or otherwise important to us to merit that kind of investment. If you think you deserve a resurrection, prove it. Can you solo that CR 6 monster? Are you a vassal of any importance? No? Then work with what you've got. Even in an age of miracles I don't think it'll be a widespread view that everyone is entitled to a resurrection.

And that aside, there should be programs in place to lessen the blow here. Compensation and a pension for the families of fallen legionnaires, monuments to the fallen scattered throughout Sorcerer's Deep (I wanted to make a new one with the name of every legionnaire that successfully completes a term of service inscribed into the walls), etc etc.

 

[Goldfish]

I wasn't trying to start the "immortality for all" discussion again, or anything like that. I'm aware that it's impractical, I was just bring up a social consequence of that realization and asking how we planned on dealing with it.

We do give legionnaires a good deal, and fulfill every reasonable obligation we have to them. I just don't think that that fact has as much of an impact on the emotional level as demonstrating who's worth raising from the dead and who isn't. Grieving people aren't terribly rational most of the time either, so that's another awkward dimension to work with.

This'll only get worse with each public resurrection we perform; it stops being miraculous, and starts being something people think they can grasp.

To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying we should change our resurrection policy; just that we should start thinking about PR now since the earlier we deal with it the easier it'll be.

Click to shrink...

Regardless of what Metamagic shenanigans we use to affect multiple people per spell, casting a Raise Dead or Resurrection spell is fantastically expensive by the standards of normal low level NPCs. That might not be common knowledge yet, but given the culture and wealth disparity Planetosi people are used to operating under, telling someone it will cost 1,000 IM to resurrect a person will shut down most inquiries in their tracks.

There is also the issue of time and spell slots. We have an extremely limited number of people capable of restoring the dead, and their time and spells are better spent doing other stuff.

 

[BronzeTongue]

For the sake of not raising a problem without offering a solution, I have a proposal for mitigating the issue. The afterlife stuff will be perfect for this once it's running properly, but we won't have it for a long time, and don't particularly want to publicize it, so it doesn't help with this issue much.

What we could do though is make a deal with the gods to offer some kind of extra after life benefit to legion as a whole; either by paying for it ourselves or having the legionnaires pay into it like a 401k account. I'd prefer it be a good one, but the substance of it doesn't matter as much for this issue as much as being able to say " The Crown is deeply regretful of the fact that it can't steal all loyal service members back from death. This does not however mean it can't give you a leg up on the other side...".

Demonstrating that we give enough of a shit to try something will let us shape the narrative more than passive claims of contract fulfillment and pie in the sky projects will.

It's something to start with at least.

 

[Crake]

Also, this plays into the whole "You never asked" type scenario.

How many people are going to ask "but King Viserys, why don't you resurrect EVERYONE?" Not a lot.

Who's going to pose the question at the more approachable Dany? Mostly hob nobblers, who have access to the information about magic to know it is impractical. Even if we wanted to, there would be shortages of diamonds of the right size and quality if sourced locally, and if sourced from off-plane, because there's an even larger market for it over there, and scarcity is still a thing, as well as market protections for them, prices are similar.

We would run out of money long before we ran out of people to bring back.

Most people understand basic economics once you use similes and metaphor. People do not want a bankrupt government anymore than they want to die. Most peasants know intellectually nobles could afford to feed them better.

Most don't speak up under threat of death.

Most citizens still won't speak up due to the immeasurable public welfare we are spreading every day.

Gratitude can become bitterness when you start thinking you deserve better.

Unfortunately, the answer to your question in regards to "what do we do when there are people who think they deserve as good as Dragons and powerful mages get?"

A) You get a PC who becomes a mover and shaker. Maybe they're a more well-adjusted person afterwards, likely they are at least tolerable to our sensibilities, so long as they choose to advance along paths we have determined.

B) You get an unfortunate report from the Inquisition.

We rule a police state. It'll be policed.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I don't think that the idea that people can look down the barrel of that gun, even when they understand the calculation of it, and remain unaffected by it is reasonable. Maybe on the day to day, but in high mortality professions the death of your friends might sour the resurrection of your superiors at least a little.

The idea that we can or should fix this problem with force isn't a good one either. Suppressing ideas by attacking the people who hold them has a way of legitimizing them in the eyes of others. It makes it look like you can't win by talking so you need to silence your detractors instead. Trying sounds like a good way to cement the idea that the cost thing is a fog leaf covering apathy to me.

There are also options between doing something worthy of the inquisition's attention and blithe acceptance. Resentment and social friction are issues we can't meaningfully address with force and are bad for the long term health of organizations and civilizations.

If you guys are so tired of this topic that you'd prefer to make it future!Viserys' problem that's fine, but it will almost certainly be be an issue at some point.

 

[Duesal]

I don't think that the idea that people can look down the barrel of that gun, even when they understand the calculation of it, and remain unaffected by it is reasonable. Maybe on the day to day, but in high mortality professions the death of your friends might sour the resurrection of your superiors at least a little.

The idea that we can or should fix this problem with force isn't a good one either. Suppressing ideas by attacking the people who hold them has a way of legitimizing them in the eyes of others. It makes it look like you can't win by talking so you need to silence your detractors instead. Trying sounds like a good way to cement the idea that the cost thing is a fog leaf covering apathy to me.

There are also options between doing something worthy of the inquisition's attention and blithe acceptance. Resentment and social friction are issues we can't meaningfully address with force and are bad for the long term health of organizations and civilizations.

If you guys are so tired of this topic that you'd prefer to make it future!Viserys' problem that's fine, but it will almost certainly be be an issue at some point.

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I honestly think you're overestimating just how entitled our legionnaires are going to feel to resurrections. This is literally turning back the hand of death. Even in an age of miracles that's a Big Deal, and costly too. Yes, you have to be important in some way to merit that kind of investment because the Imperium as wealthy as it is does not have unlimited funding. Yes, it sucks when you and your friends aren't that important. But that doesn't mean legionnaires aren't well taken care of in basically every other aspect.

 

[Crake]

We are tired of this topic, but I don't like getting into the habit of shutting down discussion people so badly insist must be had by feeding into the fire more.

The only problem I can see with your Divine 401K is the dubious reliability of the statement as a whole. You basically need WoG to determine if this is something we can quasi arrange-- as I doubt we could manage to make every deity amenable to the idea. Some probably can't help but reject the idea, since it isn't in their nature.

Yss could probably work something out.

The point is, even if "work something out" occurs, that doesn't mean it'll take the form of an investment account into a better afterlife like you're imagining. Think about how this scales. A God is already investing a lot of power and attention into their divine realm, to keep it a place that is secure against repeated and frequent intrusion by its many enemies, as well as generally tolerable to its masses of followers and expatriates who arrive even after death.

You are playing with fire if you think we can turn money into divine favor. Most Gods literally cannot play ball that way, and most of the things which earn even incremental amounts of favor involve doing tasks for them, or getting them objects that money largely cannot buy.

To list the number of things a God would genuinely be interested in that sufficient quotients of money could buy, among those things includes "CR 15 genetically engineered super monsters".

Most Gods don't currently have the set-up for a leisurely lifestyle in their afterlives. At a baseline, day to day might be as good as it is in Sorcerer's Deep for a powerful god who cares about its followers. So no real change there.

If we want to give people a leg up in their next afterlife, we literally have to build it ourselves.

So it's less, we are making it Future Viserys' problem, and more that it is literally no one BUT Future Viserys' problem.

 

[Crake]

Some final thoughts, specifically in regards to people in high-risk occupations becoming resentful and peacefully platforming for further considerations.

I think it is patently obvious that Viserys cares about the men serving in his military literally more than any ruler on the planet. We have set the bar here. A promise from us that while we do not have a good solution right now, we are working tirelessly to make one...

Viserys never leads anyone on, or plays them false, unless he already pretty much deems them an enemy beyond all recourse. We have a reputation for keeping our word even if it requires going to ridiculous lengths.

If we are saying "no, we can't bring everyone back to life, but we are trying to solve this problem", can you imagine what people will think, having seen the ridiculous bullshit we've done in a handful of years?

They will sit back and watch, as long as it takes. Because there's no real choice except to have faith and to trust, Viserys certainly and literally could not afford to give a +1 life to everyone who wanted one.

And with that in mind, the very reason that people risk their lives in a dangerous occupation is a combination of economics (a standard Legionnaire earns around 36 IM a year, which is a huge sum of money when you don't have to fund high-risk/high-return lifestyles like adventuring/ruling a continent). And the fact that if no one serves in the military, everyone is going to fucking die.

We do not even have to explain this. Everyone fucking knows if we do not all come together and fight, even at risk of death, death will come for us all anyway.

Nobody has a choice, not Viserys, not Gerold, not the Torchbearers. We are all in this together. We can trust each other and try to improve the world and what comes after.

And certainly, we can talk down public dissent if it occurs in a peaceful manner with rational, well-reasoned arguments.

But splitting our focus away from our big projects might not be a good idea. I think most would rather a comprehensive solution for everyone instead of an adequate solution for a small minority of people who just so happen to live life more dangerously.

There comes a point where you can only improve someone's lot in life to a certain capacity. Once you reach that point, more material compensation becomes basically meaningless, it effectively translates into higher status.

Explaining why we need a powerful dragon back on the front lines and working in the shadows is not difficult. Why don't we stop making it more difficult than it actually is?

Edit: Also, a more practical consideration. For at least a generation, until after a number of young people have been educated in our (*cough*indoctrination camps*cough*) Public Education system, most people are going to be used to just laying down and accepting whatever the social and martial elite dish out. Right now Viserys is dishing out unbelievably good stuff. No one is going to want to rock the boat for at least 20 years. After that, we'll see.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I honestly think you're overestimating just how entitled our legionnaires are going to feel to resurrections. This is literally turning back the hand of death. Even in an age of miracles that's a Big Deal, and costly too. Yes, you have to be important in some way to merit that kind of investment because the Imperium as wealthy as it is does not have unlimited funding. Yes, it sucks when you and your friends aren't that important. But that doesn't mean legionnaires aren't well taken care of in basically every other aspect.

Click to shrink...

Once is a miracle, twice is extraordinary, three times is another day at the office. My contention is not about how solid the argument that only important people can be resurrected is; I just don't think it'll matter to someone who's son has just died and knows you can give them back. It won't work much on someone who's best friend bled out right in front of them fighting on our orders either. " I don't see a resurrection in your sibling's employment agreement " doesn't play well anywhere outside of Baator.

The blunt truth isn't going to make the problem I'm trying to address go away.

Some final thoughts, specifically in regards to people in high-risk occupations becoming resentful and peacefully platforming for further considerations.

I think it is patently obvious that Viserys cares about the men serving in his military literally more than any ruler on the planet. We have set the bar here. A promise from us that while we do not have a good solution right now, we are working tirelessly to make one...

Viserys never leads anyone on, or plays them false, unless he already pretty much deems them an enemy beyond all recourse. We have a reputation for keeping our word even if it requires going to ridiculous lengths.

If we are saying "no, we can't bring everyone back to life, but we are trying to solve this problem", can you imagine what people will think, having seen the ridiculous bullshit we've done in a handful of years?

They will sit back and watch, as long as it takes. Because there's no real choice except to have faith and to trust, Viserys certainly and literally could not afford to give a +1 life to everyone who wanted one.

And with that in mind, the very reason that people risk their lives in a dangerous occupation is a combination of economics (a standard Legionnaire earns around 36 IM a year, which is a huge sum of money when you don't have to fund high-risk/high-return lifestyles like adventuring/ruling a continent). And the fact that if no one serves in the military, everyone is going to fucking die.

We do not even have to explain this. Everyone fucking knows if we do not all come together and fight, even at risk of death, death will come for us all anyway.

Nobody has a choice, not Viserys, not Gerold, not the Torchbearers. We are all in this together. We can trust each other and try to improve the world and what comes after.

And certainly, we can talk down public dissent if it occurs in a peaceful manner with rational, well-reasoned arguments.

But splitting our focus away from our big projects might not be a good idea. I think most would rather a comprehensive solution for everyone instead of an adequate solution for a small minority of people who just so happen to live life more dangerously.

There comes a point where you can only improve someone's lot in life to a certain capacity. Once you reach that point, more material compensation becomes basically meaningless, it effectively translates into higher status.

Explaining why we need a powerful dragon back on the front lines and working in the shadows is not difficult. Why don't we stop making it more difficult than it actually is?

Click to shrink...

I have less faith in the impact of well reasoned arguments on groups of people than you do. For individuals they're very effective, but even then people as a whole rarely change their minds about things they feel strongly about based on facts.

I'm not expecting riots or anything, I just think it's unreasonable to expect everyone to care about a rational argument based on the reality of the situation on an issue as emotionally charged as death. Some degree of resentment and social separation would be a pretty minor reaction in this kind of circumstance, probably without much active thought on anyone's part.

On the 401k thing; you're right about the gods having different value standards, but I think that comes down the framing and mechanism. I'd need to look it back up, but I'm pretty sure that we were told something suggesting that the value of a sacrifice varies relative to the person giving it to a certain extent. A beggar sacrificing the rat he just caught for dinner would mean more than a rich person giving them the same animal.

A 401k is dull and likely unappealing to a god, but we don't need to frame it that way. A solider tithing a little of what they earn in each battle they fought, giving up a little bit of each victory to their god, might make it more appetizing. I'm not married to the idea, but I do think we'd be better off with something in the works that people know about and can believe in.

edit: I'm kind of surprised that this topic caused such a negative reaction. Social engineering is in the thread's top three favorite activities, along with setting people on fire and looting things.

 

[egoo]

I'm kind of surprised that this topic caused such a negative reaction.

Click to shrink...

Blame certain someone poisoning the well for quite a few posters, and the others generally not taking the topic as an issue to begin with.

 

[Crake]

This whole construct annoys me, and the amount of harmful impact it will actually have on our plans when we have institutional mechanisms that can alleviate or even avert it, minuscule.

I hate and admire quixotic windmill tilting.

I rarely ever actually have fun when people decide it is time to joust at giants again, because largely nothing noteworthy gets said, just everyone circlejerking around their previous arguments ad nauseam.

But I admit I am impressed by how passionate people can get about, really, anything, and I'd hate even more to actively discourage people posting what they feel like.

It just seems like it's time to check out of the discussion entirely for two-to-three pages because I know I won't have a good time.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I think I'm the only one who is actually interested in poking this particular bear again (though in my defense I thought it was a different animal) so I'm just going to drop it. I was looking to short circuit a future headache, not resurrect an ancient one.

In the interest of having a more interesting discussion, do any of you guys think a Nail of Blood would let Viserys cast in low magic areas or anti magic fields?

The item only specifies dead magic zones, but it works by letting the wielder draw on their own life force to cast, so it might reasonably be able to side step effects that only cut them off from magical energy instead of actively counter their spells.

 

[DragonParadox]

You know I think he whole resurection thing needs to go on a FAQ somewhere so we won't constantly revisit the same issues. I'll deal with this when I have a bit more time, busy right now.

 

[Jack vile Ripper]

You know I think he whole resurection thing needs to go on a FAQ somewhere so we won't constantly revisit the same issues. I'll deal with this when I have a bit more time, busy right now.

Click to shrink...

Nearing 16,000 pages and no FAQ on the upper page? Yeah, we're definitely gonna need that. Especially for newbies.