If you alter someone on a fundamental level to the degree that they would no longer end up in say the Abyss... you would have effectively obliterated them and stitched together another person from the ragged ruin of their mind. You have no saved anyone.
A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover
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If you alter someone on a fundamental level to the degree that they would no longer end up in say the Abyss... you would have effectively obliterated them and stitched together another person from the ragged ruin of their mind. You have no saved anyone.
That would imply that the newly good being is unable to redeem themselves, which seems wrong to me. If natural rehabilitation allows for redemption then why wouldn't this method?
So I can just alter them enough for them to want to turn around their life and save themselves by their own merits. Like rehabilitation, only it's not a crapshoot for people with limited lifespans because they'll start immediately.
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They would not have to redeem themselves, they would be a different person metaphysically... and possibility horrified to the point of self-destruction at how they came to be. There is a reason you don't use and evil spell to make people good.
- Location
- Germany
One could argue that making a person cease to exist is still a kinder fate that sending them to the Abyss or Hell.
Regardless, still a bad thing to do, just resulting in less suffering from an outside perspective.
But then, that gets a bit too utilitaristic. "Minimize suffering" as ultimate maxime leads to weird place we don't want to go.
Edit: Well, weird places or the Greater Other, one of those options.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
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- Formerly of the Far Realm
Could the spell just not exist in the setting? It's not actually even a legal 3.5 spell, since it never got ported over from 3.0.
You can with therapy, no soul sculpting. Violations to free will cannot save souls from their fate.
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Also this. I did rank death that doesn't leave someone in the lower planes as better than mind control, so if mind control causes it that is arguably a better than expected result.
And while utilitarian arguments like this lead to horrible places if taken to their logical conclusion, so does everything else. You are not supposed to take things to extremes like that.
That just makes soul destruction (which is usually seen as a bad thing) merciful. Since therapy for mortals is a crapshoot and all.
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Sure it can not exist as a spell, Lya could still probably still do it, with soul sculpting (as could others of similar skill), but she would not because she is not a monster.
Well we're working on that, but in the meantime you can't justify horribly mutilating someone's mind and soul based on how other people will do worse. If you want to make the argument that we shouldn't kill people that's different; it wouldn't be practical, but it would be consistent.
Especially since most people are at least reformable enough to reach the point where they won't commit a serious crime again. Using that spell is a cruel attempt to shortcut being a good government, and implicitly denies criminals the right to their own bodies and minds. Things like that are both directly awful and poison to a society; soul killing them is a better solution on all levels to doing something like you're suggesting.
edit: corrected typo
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That's not how I justified it. I justified it by saying that we could end up at a point where if we don't do something to a guy's soul, worst will certainly be done to them and we know this for a fact. At that point, when rehabilitation is already out of the table because the target doesn't have enough time left to live, we need to do something to spare them eternal suffering.
Also, our afterlife is probably going to struggle to overpower the lower realms' natural pull on souls, except for the most devoted to the Imperial God.
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Vote closed.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
If we're getting back into equivocation again, can we just state that there are easier ways to pass sentence on someone that does not involve sending them to one of the Lower Places by reason of apathy toward their fate than outright reprogramming them?
The reason moral relativism continues to haunt this quest is trying to find reasons why doing something dodgy in our case isn't so bad "compared to what the other guys do". No one trusts the people wielding ultimate control and power over another to always exercise that power without bias or with perfect objectivity (because they can't).
Let's just try to improve systems instead of improve people. It reduces our metaphysical environmental impact more than taking personal responsibility for the actions of every sentient being regardless of context does.
The reason moral relativism continues to haunt this quest is trying to find reasons why doing something dodgy in our case isn't so bad "compared to what the other guys do". No one trusts the people wielding ultimate control and power over another to always exercise that power without bias or with perfect objectivity (because they can't).
Let's just try to improve systems instead of improve people. It reduces our metaphysical environmental impact more than taking personal responsibility for the actions of every sentient being regardless of context does.
Unlikely; gods of almost every power level easily overcome the claim of the outer planes on the souls of their worshipers. You're also manufacturing an edge case to justify an awful course of action. Reform and therapy aren't crapshoots, they work when people give a enough of a damn to make more than a token effort.
Whatever happens to someone next, it can't possibly justify forcibly altering someone in this fashion. Criminals are still people, and they should have rights and autonomy over their own minds and souls. We can talk to them about this, lay out what they need to do and which gods to seek acceptance from to avoid a really bad end, and generally do anything but subject them to Abyss-lite "for their own good".
edit: typos again.
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Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
If you are devoted to a God, it escorts you to its Divine Realm, largely through use of Outsiders who defend their intake against interlopers. Or that's how I interpreted it on @DragonParadox's part. Cosmology isn't really given more than the bare bones overview. Even then it seems like a fairly morbid and esoteric subject that living scholars don't talk about much, and it would be like talking about your security procedures to random people if Gods spoke up about it.
With that said our relationship is good enough with them that we could ask.
The Old Gods don't have a divine realm overlain on any actual metaphysical location in the Planes, though, since their network is bound directly to the Material Plane, where all the souls presumably reside.
Yss probably has a Divine Realm by now. He would probably be obtuse in his explanation though. R'hllor might share more.
With that said our relationship is good enough with them that we could ask.
The Old Gods don't have a divine realm overlain on any actual metaphysical location in the Planes, though, since their network is bound directly to the Material Plane, where all the souls presumably reside.
Yss probably has a Divine Realm by now. He would probably be obtuse in his explanation though. R'hllor might share more.
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Does Zathir have a divine realm yet? He's probably our best bet for a relatively clear explanation, and we haven't used much of our favor with him in a while.
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Part MMMDXXXV: Secrets amid the Shards
Secrets amid the Shards
Twenty Fourth Day of the First Month 294 AC
You consider the matter a long moment, biting back the impulse to accept at once. On the one hand without Dawnfyre Valaena is far less effective and the dragon itself will be idle for however long it takes to deal with the assassin, on the other she has proven quite adept at investigations in the past, long before she even hatched her dragon. You are not just agreeing for the sake of her state of mind, though you will not deny that is part of the reason.
"Very well," you reply by the same manner she had contacted you before turning back to her father to finish the arrangements, including having z means of communicating with the Faceless. Lord Velaryon is more than a bit relieved when the shadow cat offers to play liaison, perhaps fearing Valaena may otherwise do it.
Regardless you make sure she returns to Sorcerer's Deep to be better equipped for whatever trials may come before heading off with Ser Richard at your side.
***
Twenty Fifth Day of the First Month 294 AC
The two of your travel further by far than over land and sea. Anchor stone in hand you bring to mind the dusty city of ruined grace, but not the sky, never the sky. Heaven's Shore is unchanged, crumbling under the shadow of the broken mountain, and yet ever changing, as merchants and travelers from across the planes rub shoulders, the air alive with the words of countless tongues melodious and harsh until it seems almost that from the din some sort of harmony merges, the heartbeat of a city that may be sickened, but refuses to die.
In the the crooked shadows of the Stacks there are many hidden places, alcoves and arches left from elder times, dwellings of scholars who did not wish to be disturbed in their studies, yet still the echoes travel far, for scholars be they ever be so always have an ear to the ground about more sources to add to their collections. A faded parchment treated with some manner of glamour showing a chest full of books opening and closing hangs above one of the main archways into the district. Not a great deal of creativity in drawing, waste of a glamour almost.
Eschyr's Emporium, presents the collection of the late Heronious of Dis, for only the most discerning and well connected scholars, you read. The price of entry requested underneath is barely of note, five thousand marks, just about, though you will have to pay in less conspicuous currency of course.
Of greater note is that you are expected to offer up a name and realm of origin. Though you doubt anyone will be checking them too thoroughly, the auctioneer being after all more concerned with selling for a high price, you should nonetheless give some sort of halfway plausible identity to be buying volumes on necromancy, daemonic lore and arcanology, not to mention trying to outbid supposed agents of Hell's own treasurer.
Under what guise will you attempt to gain access to the auction?
[] Write in
OOC: And here we are, not quite at the auction, you need to decide who you will be first.
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Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
Here's an edited version of the chapter, DP.
Sure you guys can look for that smith.
Goldfish
Friendly Spider-Fish Abomination
- Location
- Formerly of the Far Realm
We could pretend to be from one of those organizations, but it would be difficult for us to do more than a vague impersonation, since we don't know much of their inner workings, current goals, affiliations, etc. Should someone here happen to be in contact with either of them, our cover could be blown very quickly.
Maybe we can just try for the curious Archmage routine? Powerful enough to go where we want when we want, powerful enough to do so with a minimum of fuss, and with the wealth needed to participate in a high end auction. We don't have to be representatives of a foreign power, a cabal of mages, or even a transformed Dragon. Just a Human looking to buy some lore.
Crake
I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING
- Location
- USA
[X] Narses of Minauros, a gold-skinned man with crimson eyes, and Rexhar of Flamespite, an Ifrit mercenary from the Plane of Fire.
-[X] You have at least used this guise before. If you happen to earn the enmity of Dispater this day, better that the axe falls upon Mammon should you have to fight your way out, no?
-[X] You have at least used this guise before. If you happen to earn the enmity of Dispater this day, better that the axe falls upon Mammon should you have to fight your way out, no?
It's actually agents of Mammon not Dispater who are after those books. Here's the rumor that started this for reference:
More Precious than Gold: A notable book auction is taking place among the Stacks in Heaven's Shore following the suicide of a notable collector of rare tomes. Volumes on necromancy, daemonic lore and arcanology are rumored to be among those offered for purchase if one is willing and able to negotiate entrance for outside agents. Agents of Mammon have been reported as interested in the event, though by less than reliable sources, possibly hiding the interest of some other Archduke, or some lesser power spreading false tales in order to make the competition wary.