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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Jack vile Ripper said:
I can't wait 'till we finally Conquer Yi-Ti.

It might take a hundred years from now, and another several decades tp pacify the whole region under Imperial control.

But damn, do I want Viserys to dress up like a Chinese Emperor for once.

Hmm, what do you think his epithets would be?

Thrice-Blessed Heavenly Sovereign.

Vestige Wrought by Dawn's Light.

Crimson Scales Crowning Glory.

Master of Tree, Snake, and Sea.

Dragon King Beyond the Sea.

Or my favourite thus far...

Scarlet Emperor.​
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Dragon of the West. ;)

Man, I'd love to meet an Iroh-like character from Yi Ti. I'd hire him on the spot, only to discover he's an Imperial Sovereign Dragon in disguise or something.
 
Duesal said:
Dragon of the West. ;)

Man, I'd love to meet an Iroh-like character from Yi Ti. I'd hire him on the spot, only to discover he's an Imperial Sovereign Dragon in disguise or something.
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Ah, Avatar. You bring sweet memories from times past...

Also, I could still go on!

Jet-Spurning Death Artist

Blood Chirurgeon Woven in White Pearls and Green Death.

Ash Scourer by the Sea of Dark Flames.

Vaunted Builder of the Stone and Earth.

Binder of Life and Light.

I'm using my Exalted knowledge of naming scheme to help me here. If you guys want to make your own, feel free to do so.
 
Crake said:
The key here is not to try to reduce arguments on this subject by citing that Viserys is Good because the side effects of his actions are Good.

Viserys may genuinely hate slavery, he may have thought the incompetent and insane nobility in charge of Essos needed to be removed for their genuinely reprehensible actions, but that was never his main motivation when undertaking the extremes he went through in order to enact those changes. He murdered, deceived and conquered for power, so that he could wield that power and pursue his various motivations, most of them selfish at their core, no matter how many people end up benefiting from them. Viserys is a Great Man, not a Good one. Attempting to act self-righteous when lining your own pockets all the while is just opening yourself up to "take that" monologues from people who are altruistically powerful and equally charismatic, like Lucan.

That isn't really to say Lucan can be considered a net-good either. This is the interesting part about the motives of powerful men. The actions Lucan could take in the pursuit of virtue could end up harming as many people as Viserys sought to help. Or it could end up helping no one, which indirectly harms them because rather than taking action to prevent the predating of other factions, the element which represented "giving people a choice and a chance to climb higher on the moral ladder" might end up being short-sighted considering the timeline that everyone is working under.

Consider this, Lucan doesn't want control and eternal church authority. He is against the controlling and limiting social ladder which currently exists, and maybe even wants to tear it down.

The Others are coming. Baator is working. Daemons are springing up. Deep Ones are embedding themselves wherever they can.

Viserys excises all of those things, but he does it by taking control. We have ideals greater than "mere survival with a entree of total control" which the Father apparently initially charged Lucan with, but that doesn't make them virtuous, it does however make them equally laudable.
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You are pretty much, yet again, trying to use Utilitarianism to somehow establish a moral equivalence between Viserys and Lucan. With a side-order of Hard Men Making Hard Decisions, by invoking external threats as justification for Viserys less savory acts. At the same time, you imply Lucan to be unable to deal with these issues in a different way then the one Viserys uses.

It's squarely the old Inevitability argument. You are presenting Viserys actions as the only valid course, then use that to portray him as enlightened and worthy of emulation for having taken this course. At the same time, you openly claim others to be defective and lesser for not following the same path, implying they are morally lesser for not having taken the preferred option.

This lionization of Viserys is a pretty constant pattern in your argumentation and it's pretty annoying, especially since you keep using the circular logic of his actions being right, therefore him being right to take them.
 
Here's Liomond Lashare's character sheet, ya'll. Better late than never, right? Let me know if ya'll see any issues with it before I send it to DP.

He lost a lot of neat perks when the Death Knight template was removed, but I think we did a pretty good job of offsetting most of that with new or upgraded gear.
Name: Liomond Lashare
Alias: The Lord of Battles
Age: ???
Alignment: ???
Race: Human
Level: 13
Class: Warblade
Feats: Blade Meditation(B), Ironheart Aura(B), Improved Critical(Great Sword), Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing), Power Attack, Stormguard Warrior(B), Weapon Focus(Great Sword), Weapon Specialisation(Great Sword)
Class Features: Battle Ardor, Battle Clarity, Battle Cunning, Battle Skill, Uncanny Dodge, Weapon Aptitude

HP: 13d12 (90) + 52 (CON) = 142
AC: 10 + 11 (Breastplate of the Battle Lord +5) + 4 (Animated Extreme Shield +1) + 4 (DEX) + 1 (Dodge; Channel Vigor) = 30 (Flat-Footed: 25, Touch: 20); +2 (Deflection vs Evil), +5 (vs Ranged), +2 vs Undead OR +4 vs Incorporeal Undead
Movement: 30ft + 30ft (Boots) = 60ft
Initiative: +4 (DEX) + 2 (Belt) = +6
Base Attack: +13/+8/+3; +8 (STR) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 2 (Melee Weapon Mastery) + 1 (Channel Vigor) + Valyrian Steel Greatsword (+3)
  • Valyrian Steel Greatsword (+3): 2d6 + 3 (Enhancement) + 12 (STR) + 2 (Melee Weapon Mastery) + 2 (Weapon Specialization)
    • Normal: +28/+28/+23/+18 (2d6+19; 17-20/x2)
    • vs Undead: +28/+28/+23/+18 (3d6+19; 17-20/x2)
    • Special: The sword acts as a Ghost Touch weapon and can make Critical Hits Undead as if they were living creatures.
Special: +4 bonus to Combat Maneuvers (Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Overrun, Sunder, Trip), +4 bonus vs Combat Manuevers (Bull Rush, Feint, Overrun, Sunder, Trip), +9 vs Disarm attempts, +4 bonus to confirm Criticals, +4 damage against Flanked or Flat-footed
Immunities: Possession/Mental Control, All Death Spells, Magical Death Effects, Energy Drain, and any Negative Energy Effects, Mind-Affecting Effects, Divination, Baleful Polymorph [Single use]
DR: 5/- (up to 50 HP)

STATS:
22* +4 = 26 (+8) Strength
14 +5 = 19 (+4) Dexterity
14 +4 = 18 (+4) Constitution
12 (+1) Charisma
14 +4 = 18 (+4) Intelligence
14 (+2) Wisdom
*+8 for the purposes of determining carrying capacity

SAVES:
FORTITUDE: 8 + 4 (CON) + 5 (Resistance) = 17
REFLEX: 4 + 4 (DEX) + 5 (Resistance) + 1 (CV) = 14
WILL: 4 + 2 (WIS) + 4 (Battle Clarity) + 5 (Resistance) = 15

SKILLS:
Balance: 16 + 4 (DEX) +2 (Blade Meditation) = 22
Bluff: 0 + 1 (CHA) + 6 (CV) = 7
Concentration: 16 + 4 (CON) + 6 (CV) = 26
Diplomacy: 16 + 1 (CHA) = 17
Intimidate: 0 + 1 (CHA) + 6 (CV) = 7
Knowledge (Engineering): 16 + 4 (INT) + 4 (CV) = 24
Knowledge (History): 16 + 4 (INT) + 4 (CV) = 24
Knowledge (War): 16 + 4 (INT) + 4 (CV) = 24
Listen: 0 + 2 (WIS) + 4 (CV) = 6
Spot: 0 + 2 (WIS) + 4 (CV) = 6

Maneuvers (Initiator Level 13):
Combat Loadout:
Special Abilities:
  • Battle Ardor (Ex): You gain an Insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits.
  • Uncanny Dodge (Ex): You retain your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if you are caught Flat-Footed or struck by an Invisible attacker.
  • Battle Cunning (Ex): You gain an Insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on melee damage rolls against Flat-Footed or Flanked opponents.
  • Battle Clarity (Ex): As long as you are not Flat-Footed, you gain an Insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus (maximum equals your Warblade level) on your Reflex saves.
  • Battle Skill (Ex): You gain an Insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on any check made to oppose an enemy's Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Overrun, Sunder, or Trip attempt.
  • Channel Vigor: Select one of the following effects, which can be changed as a Move Action. Currently using "Mind" effect.
    • Limbs: You gain the benefits of a haste spell.
    • Mind: You gain a +4 competence bonus on Knowledge, Listen, and Spot skill checks and on ranged attack rolls.
    • Spirit: You gain a +6 competence bonus on Will saving throws and Bluff and Intimidate checks.
    • Torso: You gain a +6 competence bonus on Fortitude saving throws and concentration checks.
Contingency Spells: Renewal Pact; Stalwart Pact

Anklets of Translocation (Slotless):
  • 2/Day Instantly teleport up to 10 feet to an unoccupied destination within line of sight and line of effect. The wearer can teleport with objects, up to their maximum load, but cannot bring other creatures.
Animated Extreme Shield: AC Bonus: +3 + 1 (Enhancement) + 5 (vs Ranged), Weight: 25 pounds
  1. Lesser Crystal of Arrow Deflection: You benefit from a +5 bonus to AC versus ranged attacks.
  2. Animated: Upon command, this shield floats within 2 feet of you, providing protection as if you were using it yourself but freeing up both her hands.
Belt of the Battle Master: +2 Competence bonus to Initiative checks
  1. 3/Day use Enlarge Person(self only) as a Swift Action for up to 10 rounds per day. The effect can be dismissed as a Free Action.
  2. Battle (3 Charges/Day): 1 Charge (gain a Move Action), 2 Charges (gain a Standard Action), 3 Charges (gain a Full-Round Action)
  3. Healing/Harming (3 charges/Day): 1 Charge (Heal/Harm 2d8 points of damage), 2 Charges (Heal/Harm 3d8), or 3 Charges(Heal/Harm 4d8)
Boots of the Battle Charger:
  1. Benefit from a +30ft Enhancement bonus to ground movement speed.
  2. If you also wear a magic item that grants an enhancement bonus to your Dexterity score, you can move across difficult terrain and through squares occupied by allies when making a charge after activating the boots.
  3. 2/Day You can make a charge attack as a Standard Action (rather than a Full-Round Action), but only moving at your normal speed (instead of double). You must make the charge attack the same round the boots are activated, or the effect is lost.
Breastplate of the Battle Lord (+5 Reinforced Segmented Mithral Breastplate): Armor Bonus: +11, Max Dexterity Bonus: +6, Armor Check Penalty: -1, Arcane Spell Failure: 15%, Speed: 30ft, Weight: 16.5 pounds
  • Combat Prowess: +5 Resistance bonus to all saving throws and +4 bonus on all Combat Maneuvers (Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Overrun, Sunder, Trip)
  • Greater Iron-Ward Diamond: This augment crystal grants you DR 5/--. This DR stacks with similar DR granted by any other source. Once the crystal has prevented a total of 50 points of damage, it becomes inert until the following day.
Circlet of the Mind and Body: +4 Intelligence, +4 Strength

Duelist's Gloves: +5 Dexterity, +5 vs Disarm attempts

Earring of Arcane Acuity:
  • 3 Charges/Day: 1 Charge (Darkvision 60 ft., 1 hour), 2 Charges (See Invisibility, 10 minutes), 3 Charges (True Seeing, 1 minute)
Greater Amulet of Protection from Evil:
  1. 3 Charges/Day: 1 Charge (12 Temporary Hit Points), 2 Charges (18 Temporary Hit Points), 3 Charges (24 Temporary Hit Points), Duration: 10 minutes
  2. Undead creatures attempting to strike you suffer a -2 penalty to Attack rolls, or -4 to Attack rolls made by Incorporeal Undead. Undead gain a +4 bonus to detect you via Listen or Spot.
Greater Ribbon of Disguise: Alter Self, Magic Aura, Undetectable Alignment (At Will)

Handy Haversack: This backpack is of high quality but appears otherwise normal.
  1. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a Bag of Holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.
  2. While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a Move Action, but it does not provoke the Attacks of Opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.
Muleback Cords(Slotless): Strength score is 8 higher than normal when determining carrying capacity.

Psionic Tattoos: Detect Hostile Intent (x1), Detect Teleportation (augmented to 2nd level for 130ft range) (x1), Eradicate Invisibility (x1), Time Hop (x1), Touchsight (x1), Ubiquitous Vision (x1)

Scabbard of the Keen Edges: A weapon drawn from the Scabbard can be affected by the Keen Edge spell 3/Day.

Ring of the Wind: 1/Day cast a Haste spell at 10th level as a Swift Action.

Soulfire Greatreach Bracers of Quickstrike (+1):
  1. Immune to all death spells, magical death effects, and energy drain, and any negative energy effects
  2. 3/Day as a Swift Action, your arms stretch and elongate extending your Reach by 10 feet for one round.
  3. 1/Day you can make one extra attack with any weapon you are holding if you already made a full attack on this turn. This attack is made at your full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. This effect is not cumulative with any other effect that grants you an extra attack when making a full attack, such as the Rapid Shot feat, a speed weapon, or the haste spell.
Valyrian Steel Greatsword (+3): 2d6+3; 19-20/x2
  • Greater Weapon Crystal of True Death: The dagger inflicts an additional +1d6 damage to Undead, functions as a Ghost Touch weapon, and can be used to deliver Sneak Attack and Critical Hits against Undead as if they were living creatures.
Genie Tokens
1x Plane Shift Charm
1x Sending Stone
1x Teleport Charm

Githzerai Tokens
1x Crystal Reddopsi (13th Manifester Level)
1x Crystal Fate of One (13th Manifester Level)
1x Crystal of Null Psionic Field (11th Manifester Level)
1x Crystal Temporal Acceleration (Augmented to 15th Manifester level, 2 round duration)

Alchemical Substances:
5x Alchemist's Fire
30x Alchemist's Kindness
3x Antiplague
3x Antitoxin
3x Auran Mask
10x Fungal Stun Vial
20x Healing Salve
5x Liquid Ice
10x Sleep-Smoke
5x Sunrod
30x Vermin Repellent
Equipment: Anklets of Translocation (Slotless), Animated Extreme Shield (+1), Belt of the Battle Master, Bead of Newt Prevention, Boots of the Battle Charger, Breastplate of the Battle Lord (+5), Circlet of the Mind and Body (+4 INT, +4 STR), Duelist's Gloves (+5 DEX, +5 Disarm), Earring of Arcane Acuity, Greater Amulet of Protection from Evil, Greater Ribbon of Disguise, Handy Haversack, Mind Blank Ring, Muleback Cords(Slotless), Psionic Tattoos, Scabbard of Keen Edges, Ring of Sustenance (Slotless), Ring of the Wind, Soulfire Greatreach Bracers of Quickstrike (+1), Valyrian Steel Greatsword (+3)
 
Duesal said:
and the Whites ended up becoming Frost Dragons.
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Do we have insight into Tiamat's position on this, perhaps with a bit more detail than

RAGE!

DragonParadox said:
You had not overcome her will, the mind and might of the Mother of Dragons, who was a godless when the world was young, but you had struck and wounded her just the same. Pride floods over you and you know it is of Her, you hate it and you love it, but you cannot deny it.
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The above shows that even when we spit in her face she feels Pride for the accomplishment of her children. Or that was my read of it.

The Others stole her children.

So I'm just curious what we know of this.

Edit: To clarify, also our IC views/understanding on how she sees our pledge to eradicate them and our progress in doing so.
 
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Goldfish said:
Equipment: Anklets of Translocation (Slotless), Animated Extreme Shield (+1), Belt of the Battle Master, Bead of Newt Prevention, Boots of the Battle Charger, Breastplate of the Battle Lord (+5), Circlet of the Mind and Body (+4 INT, +4 STR), Duelist's Gloves (+5 DEX, +5 Disarm), Earring of Arcane Acuity, Greater Amulet of Protection from Evil, Greater Ribbon of Disguise, Handy Haversack, Mind Blank Ring, Muleback Cords(Slotless), Psionic Tattoos, Scabbard of Keen Edges, Ring of Sustenance (Slotless), Ring of the Wind, Soulfire Greatreach Bracers of Quickstrike (+1), Valyrian Steel Greatsword (+3)
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Yet again I am jealous of our minions. Nobody ever gave us this kind of gear. *grumble grumble*

@Goldfish, is the Valyrian Steel Greatsword supposed to be +3? Did you enchant it further or is it supposed to be the base +2?
 
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Omake: A Dragon Among Men: Golden Empire Negaverse
  • Threadmarks
    • A Dragon Among Men: Golden Empire Negaverse​

    You are Bu Gai, Son of Heaven, born of a lineage who has faced numerous trials and tribulations, having suffered several yourself in a remarkably short period of time, and last Scion of the Seafarer.

    Quite frankly, you are marginally less fucked in the ass than you were there months ago, given rampant backstabbing at court, treacherous eunuchs, a Grand Marshall you couldn't trust but also quite literally could not survive without, and ironically enough only one concubine you can trust implicitly not to act as a vector for unwitting treachery, or even witting treachery. For all the ritual preparations involved in actually bedding down with one of them, many of which intentionally hinder assassination attempts or spying as a matter of circumstance, engaging in coitus with the admittedly beautiful Mei Lin had been the last thing on your mind.

    Not that you find her company lacking, or that you are devoid of all urges, the truth is you are remarkably starved of clever company who isn't paradoxically responsible for both for your own protection and carrying forth your edicts, and yet best placed to begin the ruination of all your plans.

    And while people are thinking you are acting indirectly through her, and you hold no illusions anyone is genuinely convinced you have fallen madly in love with her because of heart palpitations in the throes of danger being mistaken for the height of romance, more the fool they if they think she is without the mental faculties to thrive. Truth be told you are a bit disgusted she's languished in the shadows when she possesses such insightful wit. Truly the Maiden-Made-of-Light blesses her chosen few in the most unlikely of circumstances.

    Regardless, you didn't get this far by being lax, even for a moment. You have been using those moments where discretion and privacy could be somewhat guaranteed to form an opinion on the titan rising in the west.

    Honestly, you're a little fucking terrified you're underestimating the 'Archon of the West' even now. Even referring to him by that intentionally diminishing title a month after he quite literally incinerated an army lead by what his advisor informs him was no mere figment. Still shaking from what had almost been unleashed upon your realm, what had been a genuine Avatar of a vile Spirit so far beyond the ken of mortal man, that it almost caused reality to buckle and strain, had in fact caused Cultivators across the Empire to experience horrific nightmares for weeks on end.

    And then he had simply left. If what your spies informed you is true, he had refused to so much as gaze upon the Usurper in the North, but instead of this news filling you with relief as an obvious alignment of his political motivations, it had instead rendered them near-opaque. The so-called Dragon King had after all not presented himself before you... and why should he? The suspicion was there, niggling at the back of your mind like a canker. He had not after all deigned to present himself within his own ancestral home, his throne by birthright currently being warmed by the ass of an Usurper of his own. The words of his envoy still chilled you to the bone. So long as they do not pose a threat to his interests or the world at large.

    Your advisors had congratulated themselves on the immense political coup that had turned out to be. Fools. All of them. 'The world at large'? What ruler, much less the so-called 'barbarians' which the Court so carelessly dismissed, would concern themselves with the world at large? Only one who saw it as their mandated duty to intervene in matters which would impose unwanted, possibly dire, possibly just inconvenient, disaster or change wrought upon it. Did not one of them see all the parallels?

    That single conversation had you waking up in a cold sweat more than once, and not even the flames of more blood wyrms hatched by your own shugenja would help there.

    Today, you are presented with the proof of your recent findings regarding the fate of Western Essos and beyond, what comings and goings you are aware of in regards to the highest echelons of political power there.

    It doesn't look great.

    But it's not all ill winds swirling from over the Bone Mountains. Indeed there are a great many things that interest you about this foreign King's rule, about as many as makes you wary.


    Rumors of the West:

    Day of Dragons, Dreams of Empire:     The Empire Day celebration in Sorcerer's Deep reverberated across the realm which King Viserys Targaryen had wrought, a day of revelry with an auspicious name which had all manner of rumors and discussions swirling in foreign ports, most of all about all of the custom it had brought to them. As merchants set sail taking advantage of the bottoming out prices for luxuries produced in the wake of a spending spree quite unlike any other, thousands of magnates, princes and high officials show off their wealth in all manners and starting trends just as soon as the old ones ended.

    A fortune is said to pass through the customs office in Sorcerer's Deep each day, and for all of that yet more of it leaving the coffers of the Dragon, to fund immense infrastructural projects, charities, new and expanding ministries and departments, as well as the mysterious projects the Scholarum and Inquisition involves itself in. Your agents have so far proven one thing clearly, penetrable to your spies these institutions are not.

    Golden Hunger: With the return of the Expeditionary Trade Fleet to the Golden Empire, your very realm, a great desire for goods from it has been born practically instantly, given the entirety of the fleet had disappeared by what your shugenja inform you was, somehow, mass translocation. Your chief adviser in such matters had to be calmed down repeatedly from near hysterics, after which he confirmed that no, he was reasonably certain that the Dragon's mages did not include among their number a being on par with a Great Spirit capable of transporting the entirety of a fleet and all of the people on it half-way across the world.

    Merely what is likely to have been completely empty vessels. So, in that case, how extremely reassuring. Regardless, with this desire to not only obtain more of the goods which it had delivered from afar, but also learn more of its culture which the volumes of lore and local customs brought aboard it had likely kindled, you can expect an influx of westerners to arrive in Yin within several months at the latest. There is an advantage to be sought there.

    Battle in the Frozen Lands: Showing no signs of slowing down, the Dragon King leads his burgeoning forces, including three sky ships, into the Far North where you are told the darkest of powers reigns supreme. And he returned. Utterly victorious, and with yet more grateful subjects rescued from what could only be a terrible fate. More importantly, you are becoming somewhat disinclined to tolerate the kind of whimsy and rhetorical twists of tongue which seeks to lessen the Archon's martial accomplishments, least of all because it would at this point simply pose a massive loss of face given his complete and total superiority over a foe neither you nor the Usurper were in any position to act against.

    At least, not without immense preparations being undertaken and a disquieting degree of reliance upon the Luminaries, the limits of those bonds having yet to be truly tested. You have considered simply acting in a more overt manner, to give him face in reference to his fearsome reputation, if only to avoid the absurdity of the slighted martial elite of your forces vaunting their own involvement which, you note, had still involved a great number of the Dragon's agents aiding them in battle, among those the war of the shadows which you have yet to fully master. It would be notably less troublesome than trying to inflate your own accomplishments on the field, and he seems politically astute enough to realize he would be benefited by reciprocating in turn--that you are one of the few in your court to realize the Archon understands miànzi is not lost on you, however.

    Mirrored Fortunes: A great number of your foreign agents have brought back with them an addiction to syndicated and serial theatrical productions performed across the many great mirrors of artifice across the western realm.
    There have been many subtle and indirect inquiries through the usual channels on what you intend to do about the stated interest to purchase a nearly unprecedented stake in the Foreign Quarter of your capital, and the permits to erect great works of artifice with your own shugenja acting as observers.

    To be frank you are seriously considering the proposal, the amount of information discussed during designated time-slots result in a more timely delivery of news than the Cultivators in your service can, at present, retrieve on their own two feet.

    ...​

    You are having a hard time keeping your composure in front of Mei Lin when she informs you that the Imperial Embassy has made mass purchases of fireworks while discussing her latest movements at court over tea.

    Realizing that this unusual interest had been the direct result of lacking the usual connections that the Targaryen relied on to discretely purchase curiosities in foreign ports, his 'Astral Currents', you now must somehow reconcile to your council why the Archon is not to be underestimated.

    A prospect which you realize all but impossible when Mei Lin, mortified at having laughed in your presence, goes on to explain that the purchases had been made in the name of 'King Viserys Targaryen' personally, specifically for private celebrations during the culmination of massive public festivals and celebrations across a geographic area roughly equivalent with your own realm. You had several arguments ready about how something on that scale would be tremendously difficult to organize without dedicated, efficient and moreover competent administrators, but at this point you've completely given up, at least on that account.

    If only your peer wasn't an insane eccentric.
     
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    • Duesal said:
    Yet again I am jealous of our minions. Nobody ever gave us this kind of gear. *grumble grumble*

    @Goldfish, is the Valyrian Steel Greatsword supposed to be +3? Did you enchant it further or is it supposed to be the base +2?
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    Yeah, they've seriously got it made.

    It was upgraded to +3 so Liomond wouldn't have his overall attack bonus reduced by 1, since the sword he used to wield was a +3 weapon. He can't use that one any longer, as it inflicts damage on living wielders.
     
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    Azel said:
    You are pretty much, yet again, trying to use Utilitarianism to somehow establish a moral equivalence between Viserys and Lucan. With a side-order of Hard Men Making Hard Decisions, by invoking external threats as justification for Viserys less savory acts. At the same time, you imply Lucan to be unable to deal with these issues in a different way then the one Viserys uses.

    It's squarely the old Inevitability argument. You are presenting Viserys actions as the only valid course, then use that to portray him as enlightened and worthy of emulation for having taken this course. At the same time, you openly claim others to be defective and lesser for not following the same path, implying they are morally lesser for not having taken the preferred option.

    This lionization of Viserys is a pretty constant pattern in your argumentation and it's pretty annoying, especially since you keep using the circular logic of his actions being right, therefore him being right to take them.
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    Thing is we've always failed to agree on this because we do not reconcile perceptions of the character the same way.

    You insist every action incrementally leads one in a direction of being power obsessed, with no virtue but how to cultivate that base in the pursuit of yet more power. That each positive segment of the society that Viserys cultivates is just another tool and lever by which he exercises more control.

    I fundamentally disagree. I will never agree with it. I railed against the reductionist arguments you've made hundreds of times in the thread. We've failed to agree even once on that. I'm not trying to convince you, I know your point of view at this point.

    I mean, why not remain a QM if you wanted to force players to fully encapsulate this logic by presenting them with choices which clearly have nothing but naked greed in the face of moral equivocation? You were well placed to make my voice a vocal minority. Absolutely no one was stopping you from telling the story you wanted to.

    ...except DragonParadox. Okay, point retracted.
     
    Goldfish said:
    Yeah, they've seriously got it made.

    It was upgraded to +3 so Liomond wouldn't have his overall attack bonus reduced by 1, since the sword he used to wield was a +3 weapon. He can't use that one any longer, as it inflicts damage on living wielders.
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    We still have that old sword, right? We can give it to one of our undead.
     
    Crake said:
    Thing is we've always failed to agree on this because we do not reconcile perceptions of the character the same way.

    You insist every action incrementally leads one in a direction of being power obsessed, with no virtue but how to cultivate that base in the pursuit of yet more power. That each positive segment of the society that Viserys cultivates is just another tool and lever by which he exercises more control.

    I fundamentally disagree. I will never agree with it. I railed against the reductionist arguments you've made hundreds of times in the thread. We've failed to agree even once on that. I'm not trying to convince you, I know your point of view at this point.

    I mean, why not remain a QM if you wanted to force players to fully encapsulate this logic by presenting them with choices which clearly have nothing but naked greed in the face of moral equivocation? You were well placed to make my voice a vocal minority. Absolutely no one was stopping you from telling the story you wanted to.

    ...except DragonParadox. Okay, point retracted.
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    1. You are completely evading the point I was making in that post. I was pointing at flaws in your argumentation, not saying anything related to the characters.
    2. You arguing against a strawman that is currently convenient to you.
    3. Why the ad hominem attack?

    All you are doing here is trying desperately to run to safety and present yourself as the victim, because you do not wish to have an argument about anything. You just want to post your opinions and want them accepted uncritically.
     
    Azel said:
    1. You are completely evading the point I was making in that post. I was pointing at flaws in your argumentation, not saying anything related to the characters.
    2. You arguing against a strawman that is currently convenient to you.
    3. Why the ad hominem attack?

    All you are doing here is trying desperately to run to safety and present yourself as the victim, because you do not wish to have an argument about anything. You just want to post your opinions and want them accepted uncritically.
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    When has arguing with you ever been enjoyable? Discussing plans, discussing events, pointing out setting specific details or implications, that's fun.

    You make everything about debate as unenjoyable and hostile as possible.
     
    Crake said:
    A Dragon Among Men: Golden Empire Negaverse​

    You are Bu Gai, Son of Heaven, born of a lineage who has faced numerous trials and tribulations, having suffered several yourself in a remarkably short period of time, and last Scion of the Seafarer.

    Quite frankly, you are marginally less fucked in the ass than you were there months ago, given rampant backstabbing at court, treacherous eunuchs, a Grand Marshall you couldn't trust but also quite literally could not survive without, and ironically enough only one concubine you can trust implicitly not to act as a vector for unwitting treachery, or even witting treachery. For all the ritual preparations involved in actually bedding down with one of them, many of which intentionally hinder assassination attempts or spying as a matter of circumstance, engaging in coitus with the admittedly beautiful Mei Lin had been the last thing on your mind.

    Not that you find her company lacking, or that you are devoid of all urges, the truth is you are remarkably starved of clever company who isn't paradoxically responsible for both for your own protection and carrying forth your edicts, and yet best placed to begin the ruination of all your plans.

    And while people are thinking you are acting indirectly through her, and you hold no illusions anyone is genuinely convinced you have fallen madly in love with her because of heart palpitations in the throes of danger being mistaken for the height of romance, more the fool they if they think she is without the mental faculties to thrive. Truth be told you are a bit disgusted she's languished in the shadows when she possesses such insightful wit. Truly the Maiden-Made-of-Light blesses her chosen few in the most unlikely of circumstances.

    Regardless, you didn't get this far by being lax, even for a moment. You have been using those moments where discretion and privacy could be somewhat guaranteed to form an opinion on the titan rising in the west.

    Honestly, you're a little fucking terrified you're underestimating the 'Archon of the West' even now. Even referring to him by that intentionally diminishing title a month after he quite literally incinerated an army lead by what his advisor informs him was no mere figment. Still shaking from what had almost been unleashed upon your realm, what had been a genuine Avatar of a vile Spirit so far beyond the ken of mortal man, that it almost caused reality to buckle and strain, had in fact caused Cultivators across the Empire to experience horrific nightmares for weeks on end.

    And then he had simply left. If what your spies informed you is true, he had refused to so much as gaze upon the Usurper in the North, but instead of this news filling you with relief as an obvious alignment of his political motivations, it had instead rendered them near-opaque. The so-called Dragon King had after all not presented himself before you... and why should he? The suspicion was there, niggling at the back of your mind like a canker. He had not after all deigned to present himself within his own ancestral home, his throne by birthright currently being warmed by the ass of an Usurper of his own. The words of his envoy still chilled you to the bone. So long as they do not pose a threat to his interests or the world at large.

    Your advisors had congratulated themselves on the immense political coup that had turned out to be. Fools. All of them. 'The world at large'? What ruler, much less the so-called 'barbarians' which the Court so carelessly dismissed, would concern themselves with the world at large? Only one who saw it as their mandated duty to intervene in matters which would impose unwanted, possibly dire, possibly just inconvenient, disaster or change wrought upon it. Did not one of them see all the parallels?

    That single conversation had you waking up in a cold sweat more than once, and not even the flames of more blood wyrms hatched by your own shugenja would help there.

    Today, you are presented with the proof of your recent findings regarding the fate of Western Essos and beyond, what comings and goings you are aware of in regards to the highest echelons of political power there.

    It doesn't look great.

    But it's not all ill winds swirling from over the Bone Mountains. Indeed there are a great many things that interest you about this foreign King's rule, about as many as makes you wary.


    Rumors of the West:

    Day of Dragons, Dreams of Empire:     The Empire Day celebration in Sorcerer's Deep reverberated across the realm which King Viserys Targaryen had wrought, a day of revelry with an auspicious name which had all manner of rumors and discussions swirling in foreign ports, most of all about all of the custom it had brought to them. As merchants set sail taking advantage of the bottoming out prices for luxuries produced in the wake of a spending spree quite unlike any other, thousands of magnates, princes and high officials show off their wealth in all manners and starting trends just as soon as the old ones ended.

    A fortune is said to pass through the customs office in Sorcerer's Deep each day, and for all of that yet more of it leaving the coffers of the Dragon, to fund immense infrastructural projects, charities, new and expanding ministries and departments, as well as the mysterious projects the Scholarum and Inquisition involves itself in. Your agents have so far proven one thing clearly, penetrable to your spies these institutions are not.

    Golden Hunger: With the return of the Expeditionary Trade Fleet to the Golden Empire, your very realm, a great desire for goods from it has been born practically instantly, given the entirety of the fleet had disappeared by what your shugenja inform you was, somehow, mass translocation. Your chief adviser in such matters had to be calmed down repeatedly from near hysterics, after which he confirmed that no, he was reasonably certain that the Dragon's mages did not include among their number a being on par with a Great Spirit capable of transporting the entirety of a fleet and all of the people on it half-way across the world.

    Merely what is likely to have been completely empty vessels. So, in that case, how extremely reassuring. Regardless, with this desire to not only obtain more of the goods which it had delivered from afar, but also learn more of its culture which the volumes of lore and local customs brought aboard it had likely kindled, you can expect an influx of westerners to arrive in Yin within several months at the latest. There is an advantage to be sought there.

    Battle in the Frozen Lands: Showing no signs of slowing down, the Dragon King leads his burgeoning forces, including three sky ships, into the Far North where you are told the darkest of powers reigns supreme. And he returned. Utterly victorious, and with yet more grateful subjects rescued from what could only be a terrible fate. More importantly, you are becoming somewhat disinclined to tolerate the kind of whimsy and rhetorical twists of tongue which seeks to lessen the Archon's martial accomplishments, least of all because it would at this point simply pose a massive loss of face given his complete and total superiority over a foe neither you nor the Usurper were in any position to act against.

    At least, not without immense preparations being undertaken and a disquieting degree of reliance upon the Luminaries, the limits of those bonds having yet to be truly tested. You have considered simply acting in a more overt manner, to give him face in reference to his fearsome reputation, if only to avoid the absurdity of the slighted martial elite of your forces vaunting their own involvement which, you note, had still involved a great number of the Dragon's agents aiding them in battle, among those the war of the shadows which you have yet to fully master. It would be notably less troublesome than trying to inflate your own accomplishments on the field, and he seems politically astute enough to realize he would be benefited by reciprocating in turn--that you are one of the few in your court to realize the Archon understands miànzi is not lost on you, however.

    Mirrored Fortunes: A great number of your foreign agents have brought back with them an addiction to syndicated and serial theatrical productions performed across the many great mirrors of artifice across the western realm.
    There have been many subtle and indirect inquiries through the usual channels on what you intend to do about the stated interest to purchase a nearly unprecedented stake in the Foreign Quarter of your capital, and the permits to erect great works of artifice with your own shugenja acting as observers.

    To be frank you are seriously considering the proposal, the amount of information discussed during designated time-slots result in a more timely delivery of news than the Cultivators in your service can, at present, retrieve on their own two feet.

    ...​

    You are having a hard time keeping your composure in front of Mei Lin when she informs you that the Imperial Embassy has made mass purchases of fireworks while discussing her latest movements at court over tea.

    Realizing that this unusual interest had been the direct result of lacking the usual connections that the Targaryen relied on to discretely purchase curiosities in foreign ports, his 'Astral Currents', you now must somehow reconcile to your council why the Archon is not to be underestimated.

    A prospect which you realize all but impossible when Mei Lin, mortified at having laughed in your presence, goes on to explain that the purchases had been made in the name of 'King Viserys Targaryen' personally, specifically for private celebrations during the culmination of massive public festivals and celebrations across a geographic area roughly equivalent with your own realm. You had several arguments ready about how something on that scale would be tremendously difficult to organize without dedicated, efficient and moreover competent administrators, but at this point you've completely given up, at least on that account.

    If only your peer wasn't an insane eccentric.
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    Haha, this is great stuff, dude. I don't see why it couldn't be made a canon omake.

    Our MirrorVisions will infect them with Imperial culture! :evil:
     
    Crake said:
    When has arguing with you ever been enjoyable? Discussing plans, discussing events, pointing out setting specific details or implications, that's fun.

    You make everything about debate as unenjoyable and hostile as possible.
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    I was not talking about the joy of arguing with me though. I was talking about you evading me and trying to present yourself as the victim.

    Which you are doing. Pretty clearly.

    It's also clear that my statement was correct and that you do want or accept criticism from me about what you say. In essence, you want me to yield the field to you by default.

    The question is: Why should I do so? Why are you allowed to criticize me, but not the other way around?
     
    Duesal said:
    We still have that old sword, right? We can give it to one of our undead.
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    Yep.
    Heartwounder (+3 Profane Burst Bastard Sword; 15th caster level), Special: When used against a creature with less than half of its maximum Hit Points, Heartwounder's Enhancement bonus increases by +2 and its Critical Threat Range increases to from 19-20 to 17-20. This effect does not stack with similar bonuses granted by the Keen property or Improved Critical feat.
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    Azel said:
    I was not talking about the joy of arguing with me though. I was talking about you evading me and trying to present yourself as the victim.

    Which you are doing. Pretty clearly.

    It's also clear that my statement was correct and that you do want or accept criticism from me about what you say. In essence, you want me to yield the field to you by default.

    The question is: Why should I do so? Why are you allowed to criticize me, but not the other way around?
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    Criticize away! I have ceased to take it personally. I realize you're a cornerstone around here and the thread is less enjoyable without actively engaging you. Getting pissed off because of your basic lack of empathy when actually trying to get me to calm down and either clarify a point, or admit I was incorrect, isn't worth my time or energy.

    Even when you get like this I just let you get it out of your system and let you challenge whatever point I was originally making. I'm pretty sure most people here don't really disagree with you. I don't see anyone here who really engages me in discussion on practically anywhere near the same level as you do.

    Sorry for the ad hominem by the way. You are right that I stopped apologizing about that stuff a long time ago, I even admitted I was wrong more often.

    Now I really just don't want to talk to you at the moment. I'm sure it'll go away and it'll be fun again.

    It's that same fucking cycle where you suck all the joy out of posting here and bludgeon me with words, say I'm "acting like a victim", but I genuinely don't want people to stand up or defend me, and you'll notice no one really ever does, either?

    You say I am arguing against a strawman, but you have made me a strawman. No one thinks I'm a victim, least of all myself. You have this perception of me which is patently false. You say what you want until I'm intimidated enough to take it up the ass and shut up. And that's fine, I don't know where to take that.

    Fuck it, right?
     
    Crake said:
    I mean, why not remain a QM if you wanted to force players to fully encapsulate this logic by presenting them with choices which clearly have nothing but naked greed in the face of moral equivocation? You were well placed to make my voice a vocal minority. Absolutely no one was stopping you from telling the story you wanted to.

    ...except DragonParadox. Okay, point retracted.
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    Since I consider this a pretty vile personal attack and I'm not longer inclined to let it slide, let me say something on this.

    During my stint as the Co-QM, I have taken utmost pains to not act without DP's consent. I have furthermore taken great pains to not enforce a given interpretation of Viserys or other main characters. I have even been careful not to present too many outside perspectives on these characters. All plots, ideas and characters I introduced have been talked about beforehand.

    Because I respect DP and that, push comes to shove, his opinions would take precedence over mine.

    Afterwards, I made sure to limit my writing to unoffensive things, background characters and people nobody else even cares about. I kept interactions with main characters to an absolute minimum and restricted myself to minimal side-plots without greater consequences.

    You are not showing the same respect and courtesy, so your allegation here is both laughable, deeply insulting and hypocritical.

    You have introduced huge plot strings, like an entire Tiamat aligned undead settlement. You have repeatedly taken liberties to write the perspective of main characters like the Lannisters, whom DP has intentionally never used before. All your omakes focus squarely on how people think about and how they perceive Viserys and his actions. Said perception is always positive, to the point of blind fawning. Even this last one has the Emperor of Yi-Ti somehow fawning over everything Viserys has and does, even mentally taking sides with him against his own court and people.

    What you are doing is writing an unabashed Mary Sue. It's obnoxious and sucking every bit of joy out of this thread for me, because the main character becomes increasingly an unlikable caricature without depth, but a huge cheering squad, while the world bends around his every whim.

    Worse, you are taking more liberties in your influence on characterization and events while being a player then I did while I was Co-QM. And you have the gall to imply I would be forcing my views on this thread, were it not for DP stopping me?


    I'll take my leave. It's becoming pretty evident that I'm spending too much time here in relation to how much I enjoy most of it.
    Have fun writing diatribes why everyone should love Viserys and everyone criticizing him is at best misguided and usually flat wrong.
     
    Fine, whatever. All the stuff I wrote, it's all garbage.

    Everything is about how no one respects you. The person with the most outsized effect on not only the story, given large, complex, and extremely vocal posts through the entire history of the Quest, to say something of some of the character decisions which formed the basis for the perception of the characters which we are currently stuck with.

    It makes me laugh. Several people vocally described what you were doing as placing everyone in opposition to your opinions as flatly mistaken and finally forced to fess up to the flaws of their own reasoning. You drove away Snowfire, why not make a mutual murder-suicide pact out of it? As if any of the above takes away from constantly shouting down anyone who so much as disagrees with you and constructs a farcical argument that because a person neither enjoys, nor even really knows how to engage with you when you get like this, that person must be playing a victim and requesting people stand up and white knight for them... something people never request, nor clearly ever feel the need to do.

    Or I could just leave? I mean, you seem to imply I'm a mass-contributor the quest being a molten trashfire. I could really care less at this point.
     
    I'm horrible whenever discerning little details and overall narrative is concerned.

    I can't really comment one way or the other on Viserys as "moral/immoral", and "The Only Choice for the World/The Only Mary Sue for the Thread" scales because of such.

    But, one thing's I have to agree, @Crake did, indeed, write some stuff that was pretty involved in the main quest.
    And I languished a little over that before, too.

    I generally dont mind it, as it still makes the setting bigger and fuller when DP physically can't, but the @Azel's approach is far more up my alley.

    To be completely honest, I think both of you are being mite bit too dramatic over this.
    Maybe that's because both of you are too invested in the quest, eh?

    @Azel, to be blunt, you are always taking things too personally.
    That's your right to do so if you want, of course.
    But do you really?

    @Crake, I think some criticisms here are definitely justified.
    Azel has some very good points about Viserys being written up by most people in the thread as "the only choice".
    And that's mostly because we are on SV, and the contingent is just the sort to take that route, I think.


    Why is it always "okay, I'm leaving" with people on this thread?
    Jeez
    it's just horrible to remember I did stuff like that at some point.

    I'm just so tired of this sort of arguments between... pretty much everyone.
     
    Last edited:
    Don't forget to vote, ya'll.
    Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on May 27, 2020 at 10:23 PM, finished with 52 posts and 7 votes.
    • [X] See what means there are to gain entrance. A trap isn't full proof, or else immune to being sprung from the outside.
      -[X] If it is ensured that there is only one possible avenue one might gain access to either information or a clear shot on anyone involved, that means that all other vectors of approach were carefully assessed and pruned away.
      -[X] Double check for false trails or obvious baits in anticipation of an enemy just as paranoid as you are.
      --[X] If it seems too good to be true, like an idiotic yet conspicuously high ranking individual left alone, invited and well-placed to grant an entourage of guests access to the event, it probably is.
      --[X] Leave room for doubt, or even insert a group of reasonably competent Inquisition agents/Investigators to accompany such an individual, covered in enough wards and their own modestly enchanted equipment to be inconspicuous in the case of mages, to the average interests, yet conspicuous to someone making use of True Sight.
      --[X] They will enter with a good enough cover to hold up passingly but mostly to spring an ambush whereby the less well-placed group (containing Tyene, Teana, Azema, Liomond and the Asura Upasunda (CR 9) ) are ready to intervene.
      --[X] The Misfits and Morwyn and Tuin will wait nearby prepared to cut off anyone escaping on foot (mostly meaning targets of opportunity), while Aradia and Nuri will provide overwatch for them.
      ---[X] Everyone in this operation will be provided with Planeshift + Teleportation and Sending Charms, mostly meaning the Inquisition agents acting as bait, who will escape as soon as the ambush is sprung if possible using the Planeshift ones to escape to prepared locations in Armun Kelisk or the Opaline Vault, or if they have a good shot and have the spells for it will try to aid the group counter-ambushing.
      ----[X] You will have one fall-back position for short-range retreat to regroup at, and a more discrete and distant rendezvous point. Those escaping outright will be expected at our Embassies in the Opaline Vault and Armun Kelisk, respectively.
      [X] Invite yourself into the party as Dread Sorcerer Tiserys Vargaryen.
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    Gentlemen, calm the fuck down. These things make DP sad. And then all the thread is sad.

    Take a moment away and then come back with more cheer. None of you has bad intentions, so you shouldn't get so confrontational anyway.

    Please?
     
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